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Free Bus Travel for young people: Soon to be in England.
- Thread starter overthewater
- Start date
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Perhaps not surprisingly, TfGM are partaking. They sent out an email about it last week:
The linked webpage also says they're activating OurPass early as well so OurPass holders in the 16-18 group will also get free travel in August (normally they start them in September)
This matches the general rumours in the South-East, too: very much a case of intention but not confirmed.
It sounds as though this is "opt in", like the fare cap, rather than "opt out" or mandatory?
johncrossley
Established Member
It needs to allow interchange to be really useful.
Gareth1990
Member
Now would be the perfect opportunity for the government to make the fare cap mandatory, it wouldn’t surprise me if tomorrow they do announce it’s compulsory…
Dwarfer1979
Member
Yes, it is a voluntary scheme that operators have to agree to join and as with all these schemes from central government recently was announced with absolutely no warning to or consultation with the industry first so no one had any idea how it would work or what they would be paid.
That may well increase the cost of the scheme, many of the operators who refused to participate or left the scheme did so because the reimbursement offered was not felt sufficient to be viable. If it becomes mandatory it will need a reimbursement scheme much closer to the OAP passes in terms of reimbursement on usage based on actual revenue forgone (rather than rough averages and a share of a fixed national pot) as well as a much more involved process for monitoring the numbers ongoing into the future.
Also the scheme will be held to the "no better, no worse" principle which may require higher payments anyway, as indicated a number of smaller operators felt this was not close to being achieved on the current scheme. I know for my employer, a medium sized regional, some of our depots saw revenue fall on the fare cap (not compensated by any rise in numbers seen) and some were less affected (the more country depot with a lot of longer distance travel did worse than the big city depot in the original scheme) and it is quite possible that some of the larger operators faced losing revenue but felt that politically they couldn't refuse to participate given the context of its introduction (cost of living crisis). You make it compulsory but keep it underfunded and you will probably be facing legal challenges that it being voluntary head off.
Restricting the free travel period to end at, say, 18.00 hrs would remove most of the ASB, if this becomes a serious issue. But the level of reimbursement, on top of the £2/£3 fare cap, must be the no. 1 concern to operators.
The Government summer scheme is a bit messy for passengers where under 7s don't usually need a ticket, such as on Morebus:
There seems to be some inconsistency between bus companies on the age that children can travel unaccompanied on the free children's fare scheme.
Go South Coast are saying that children under 11 must be accompanied by someone aged over 16 to travel for free. They specifically say that if a 15 old is travelling with their younger 10-year old sibling, for example, then the 10-year old would have to pay.
https://www.morebus.co.uk/great-british-summer-savings
First bus on the other hand say that both children would travel for free
https://www.firstbus.co.uk/planning-your-journey/great-british-summer
Go South Coast are saying that children under 11 must be accompanied by someone aged over 16 to travel for free. They specifically say that if a 15 old is travelling with their younger 10-year old sibling, for example, then the 10-year old would have to pay.
https://www.morebus.co.uk/great-british-summer-savings
First bus on the other hand say that both children would travel for free
https://www.firstbus.co.uk/planning-your-journey/great-british-summer
Dwarfer1979
Member
I'm not sure there is any clear guidance but I was told of at least 3 pretty major companies, including one of the big groups, who were not keen on the idea when it was first announced in the press due to child safety concerns, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some leeway around this issue for operators to adjust to their own risk position. Essentially the big concern was that a pre-teen child can travel a significant distance on their own with no method of following them (no ID is technically needed and no pass is scanned), no proof anyone knows where they are going and not requiring them to have any money which would normally restrict these sorts of unauthorised trips - all three initially didn't think they would participate and at least one of them was still of this opinion until quite late in the process though I think they have decided to participate in the end.
They don't appear to be saying the 10-year old would need to pay to travel with their sibling, they are actually saying they won't allow an under-11 child to travel only accompanied by an under 16. What that effectively means is the older child would have to pretend to be older and pay adult fare (or child fare depending on what age that goes up to, ours goes to 18 so there will be 16-18 year olds still paying child fares), though they do say they may check age on the person paying adult fare and not allow the travel even if they pay. Though there does seem to be the opposite loophole you suggest that if the under-11 boards alone and pays a fare they will be allowed to travel alone and their sibling can then board apparently separately and travel free.
Most operators do appear to have younger children need to be accompanied though the age varies a little, First are unusual in not having any limits at all whilst Go South Coast seem to have gone completely the other. Having seen this I am going to ask the question of my colleague who is putting together our publicity & driver briefings for this as to how it is worded and how these caveats & loopholes sit as I hadn't quite thought of these edge issues.
Travelling on a bus this afternoon 2 girls boarded both with their own tickets. Lady driver asked in a friendly manner where they had been and the older one answered swimming in our local pool. Driver also asked how old they were and the answer was 11 & 8. Now because both had paid it was not a problem but next week because they are travelling free it is a problem. WHY?
Trainman40083
Established Member
Well, on the Trentbarton information on their site, it suggests that children under 11 have to be accompanied by a responsible adult. https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/summerfare2026. That could get interesting, if children get on, with the expectation of free travel.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That same driver might well ask next week in any case; might be a reasonable thing for a lady driver to ask (and many male drivers) as a duty of common care.
Why might it be a different issue next week? Because if they're travelling by bus, their ability/distance to travel may be curtailed by their budget but if that obstacle is removed...
Maybe the driver is, as well, simply a nice, friendly driver, being warm and welcoming. It can be a big thing for younger children to be allowed off on the bus by themselves. Funnily enough, today we sent our 10 year old off with their 14 year old sibling for a short ride - the first time the younger one had done anything like that without a parent.
But surely the anti-social behaviour you experienced was when the travelling was paid for, therefore the cost of travel doesn't really stop or encourage anti-social behaviour.
Anti-social behaviour also isn't exclusive to under 16s, nor is it exclusive to younger people. Most under 16s are actually decent, rule abiding people and this scheme is great for them, my daughters are very excited to see where they can get to on the bus over the summer holiday as it means they have more options and don't have to rely on the taxi of Dad. To punish those under 16 just because a small minority are idiots is unfair.
The solution to anti-social behaviour isn't to price out people from the service, but to improve on bus monitoring either through roving BTP / security bods or by drivers being backed up by quick responses when things get out of hand.
overthewater
Established Member
- Joined
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- Messages
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The scheme is half way, has anyone notice an uplift in younger passengers? has there been any issues? Or have the kids not been that bothered about taking the bus?
Dwarfer1979
Member
I've not got the exact numbers to hand (my colleague across the office has read them out and they surprised both of us) but we have seen a decent rise in child travel but possibly more significantly for operators given how this scheme is reimbursed is that there has been a noticeable jump in adult fares at the same time (the rise in adult and concessionary travel combined, about 50/50 between the two, is about a third of the size of the rise in child travel) which we are assuming is parents and grandparents using the bus for holiday days out as the kids are free.
I've definitely seen more youths on my local buses - largely well behaved, though most seem to be travelling in small groups of friends. Some travelling surprisingly early. Neighbour with 2 normally chargeable children very happy with money-saving effect when visiting grandparents.
A couple of lads got on the bus and the first asked for "2 tickets to (pause) somewhere". They looked very excited to just be going somewhere and presumably hadn't decided where yet - a feeling i know, but only when I've a day or longer ticket and some spare time.
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py_megapixel
Established Member
I think this is quite likely. I ended up the other day on a route that serves quite a few caravan parks (of the kind that specifically market themselves for family holidays) and it was noticeable that the bus picked up several families with children heading for a day out in the nearest town, with the adults paying a £3 fare each and the children going free.
Steve440
Member
My wife and I have taken our two granddaughters into town twice this last week whereas we probably wouldn't have if we had to pay for them. Where we are it's £2.50 per adult single but £1.60 for a child so would be quite expensive.
Yes, same, I've took the kids in to town a couple of times in the past week as it's cheaper now to do rather than pay for parking when all four of us our travelling.
As part of my travels I've spent a full 4 days on buses this month mainly at weekends and I've not noticed any issues above and beyond the usual stuff you get.
As part of my travels I've spent a full 4 days on buses this month mainly at weekends and I've not noticed any issues above and beyond the usual stuff you get.
GusB
Established Member
Who'd have thought it? Youngsters actually using the bus to go to new places and families going for days out.
Not quite the marauding hordes of feral yoof that were being predicted at the beginning of the thread.
Not quite the marauding hordes of feral yoof that were being predicted at the beginning of the thread.
Agree, it's sad that people go straight to ASB, when in reality it's only a proportionally small (but noticeable) of youths that are bad.
Ballyheigue
Member
How does this whole scheme work in terms of payments to bus companies, does it come from the Government? There are very large numbers of suspicious looking over 16s using the freebie tickets simply by asking for an under 16 ticket. No ID checks at all from any driver so I dread to think how much in tax I'll have to cough up going forward should this scheme continue. To make it fair on those who don't have kids, parents should be taxed because why am I paying for other parents kids?
That's not how public funding works. I don't avoid paying NI because I don't go to the GP and someone else goes fifteen times in a year.
We all pay towards the benefit of the country.
GusB
Established Member
Parents who are taking their kids out for a day will be spending money on visitor attractions, having lunch in cafes, buying ice cream and so forth, thereby generating a bit more income in the places that they visit. Those businesses will pay tax on that income and VAT will apply in many cases; the parents are being taxed!
Bristol LHS
Member
My son has had quite a few days out with his mates, not going far, just rides out with with Hodgsons and Procters that he wouldn’t have done otherwise. It’s added a bit of interest - some new shops and parks to check out. Ironically, the one negative experience he’s had was with a North Yorkshire Council service whose driver was determined not to let them on, telling him they weren’t entitled to free travel, then that they were but had to have a parent with them 