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Off peak tickets available Euston to Lancaster but not Blackpool.

philthetube

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The afternoon peak restrictions from Euston on avanti services Do not allow off peak fares North from Euston to Preston, however they are valid to Lancaster, so why not Blackpool?

There is only one direct Blackpool service and that is a peak service , so effectively unusable for most if not travelling on advances.

Lancaster is actually a shorter journey than Blackpool and a lower fare.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Long been the case that Off Peak tickets from London Terminals to Lancaster (and stations North thereof) have had a different restriction code than if going to the Preston / Blackpool area.
 

Egg Centric

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There is only one direct Blackpool service and that is a peak service , so effectively unusable for most if not travelling on advances.

Lancaster is actually a shorter journey than Blackpool and a lower fare.

This is the clue in fact. The Lancaster ticket unusually prevents break of journey so can't be used to surreptitiously end short at Preston. It wouldn't be practical to enforce this with a Blackpool ticket as a change would almost always be required.

Now of course you can still change at Preston but gate line are aware as are train staff and so this can be imperfectly enforced.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is the clue in fact. The Lancaster ticket unusually prevents break of journey so can't be used to surreptitiously end short at Preston. It wouldn't be practical to enforce this with a Blackpool ticket as a change would almost always be required.

Now of course you can still change at Preston but gate line are aware as are train staff and so this can be imperfectly enforced.

Preston has no gateline but I understand (while I haven't experienced it personally) it is not unknown for them to do a revenue block on the platform at these times preventing access to the bridge and subway to reach other trains, so it would be ill advised to attempt to take advantage of it even with an onward ticket held. And on the daily through train the guard would certainly be looking out for it.

All Avanti priced Euston/MKC - Lancaster or points north tickets bar break of journey on the outward for this reason, even, annoyingly, ones where an overnight stop would be quite useful e.g. Fort William.

As it's only 20 minutes each way if that, if you need to take advantage of the lower fare the best advice is probably just to take a ride to Lancaster and back. Or if you're only carrying limited luggage, try Lumo, or see if there are suitably priced Advances.
 

pokemonsuper9

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Preston has no gateline but I understand (while I haven't experienced it personally) it is not unknown for them to do a revenue block on the platform at these times preventing access to the bridge and subway to reach other trains, so it would be ill advised to attempt to take advantage of it even with an onward ticket held. And on the daily through train the guard would certainly be looking out for it.
On an off-peak flexible ticket, even if it has a break of journey restriction, it'd be completely valid to access any facilities at Preston, or change train, regardless of if the original train ran express (e.g. you could go from London to Preston with Lumo, and change there for Lancaster if you so wanted).
I would understand if you tried to exit the station and there's a revenue block on the ramp there, but the subway would be free to use.
 

Bletchleyite

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On an off-peak flexible ticket, even if it has a break of journey restriction, it'd be completely valid to access any facilities at Preston, or change train, regardless of if the original train ran express (e.g. you could go from London to Preston with Lumo, and change there for Lancaster if you so wanted).
I would understand if you tried to exit the station and there's a revenue block on the ramp there, but the subway would be free to use.

This may be technically true (and I don't know the precise way they do it as I haven't seen it, only heard that it is done) but I would be very careful suggesting something like that as it's not entirely impossible that (despite the NRCoT providing that all you have to pay to regularise this is an excess to the Anytime fare) you might end up having to argue that in Court, given that Avanti is not a Penalty Fares TOC and MG11s are very often issued when they shouldn't be. Which is not something most people are going to want to do.

All I will say is that it is seriously ill advised to consider attempting to circumvent this restriction in the obvious way at Preston (or indeed at Manchester Piccadilly, which has a gateline with facilities outside you would be entitled to use if you travelled that way on one of these fares). There are other ways it may be possible to circumvent it which are less likely to be picked up, I will obviously not post them for several reasons, not least that the Forum should not be encouraging the use of tickets against their terms and conditions. It is well known that people will try this and thus you should expect a reasonable chance of being caught.
 

pokemonsuper9

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This may be technically true (and I don't know the precise way they do it as I haven't seen it, only heard that it is done) but I would be very careful suggesting something like that as it's not entirely impossible that (despite the NRCoT providing that all you have to pay to regularise this is an excess to the Anytime fare) you might end up having to argue that in Court, given that Avanti is not a Penalty Fares TOC and MG11s are very often issued when they shouldn't be. Which is not something most people are going to want to do.

All I will say is that it is seriously ill advised to consider attempting to circumvent this restriction in the obvious way at Preston (or indeed at Manchester Piccadilly, which has a gateline with facilities outside you would be entitled to use if you travelled that way on one of these fares). There are other ways it may be possible to circumvent it which are less likely to be picked up, I will obviously not post them for several reasons, not least that the Forum should not be encouraging the use of tickets against their terms and conditions. It is well known that people will try this and thus you should expect a reasonable chance of being caught.
Yes I am not encouraging fare evasion, just making it clear that it is completely valid to change trains on a ticket prohibiting break of journey while traveling along a permitted route - where relevant it is also permitted to go outside of the barriers to access station facilities (such as water refill points or toilets).
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes I am not encouraging fare evasion, just making it clear that it is completely valid to change trains on a ticket prohibiting break of journey while traveling along a permitted route - where relevant it is also permitted to go outside of the barriers to access station facilities (such as water refill points or toilets).

Fare avoidance is probably the best way to save money in this case. That is, actually go to Lancaster and back, ideally sorting a very cheap Northern Advance back to Preston on the Cumbria train, these are often offered. On the way back the restriction is not in place.

The other way you can avoid, rather than evade, the need to pay the Anytime fare for this journey in the evening peak, is to travel on a train that stops for both pick up and set down at Milton Keynes Central (or change there) and split tickets there, as tickets north from there do not have evening restrictions*. This might be better time wise than going to Lancaster and back. Preventing people doing this is one reason a lot of Avanti trains have a set down restriction at MKC in the evening peak (though it's also to prevent them being crammed out by commuters) but unless speed is of the absolute essence there are plenty of options to avoid this restriction wholly within the rules. This is more use for Manchester than Preston, though, as the fast Scotland trains don't call, though you could do it by using a Liverpool service and changing at Crewe.

* Technically they have the same restriction code, so some more awkward staff might argue that means if you actually board at Euston the split also isn't valid, but that's not conventionally how split restrictions are done. The best advice is probably to ensure you book your split via an accredited splitting site with that itinerary, and then nobody can really argue.
 

Acathater

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On an off-peak flexible ticket, even if it has a break of journey restriction, it'd be completely valid to access any facilities at Preston, or change train, regardless of if the original train ran express (e.g. you could go from London to Preston with Lumo, and change there for Lancaster if you so wanted).
I would understand if you tried to exit the station and there's a revenue block on the ramp there, but the subway would be free to use.
Not so.
Northern sometimes put a block on platforms 1 & 2 (the Blackpool platforms) via the bridge and subways. Anyone changing to a Blackpool train would be caught
 

A S Leib

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As it's only 20 minutes each way if that, if you need to take advantage of the lower fare the best advice is probably just to take a ride to Lancaster and back. Or if you're only carrying limited luggage, try Lumo, or see if there are suitably priced Advances.
If doubling back via Lancaster and adding on 50 minutes is acceptable, splitting at Crewe for LNR-only tickets to Euston's another option, adding on an hour.
 

Mcr Warrior

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If the OP does buy an Off Peak Return from London Terminals to/from Lancaster, and then doubles back from Lancaster to Preston, they'd then also need 2 x singles (i.e. one each way) between Preston and Blackpool North, as there's only advances, day singles and returns, not period returns, available on that flow.
 

Tetchytyke

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If the OP does buy an Off Peak Return from London Terminals to/from Lancaster, and then doubles back from Lancaster to Preston, they'd then also need 2 x singles (i.e. one each way)
The break-of-journey restrictions only apply on the outward leg. This is the same for Lancaster to London Terminals and London Terminals to Lancaster. You can break your journey on the return journey.

So you only need to double back through Lancaster, and pay the extra fare, once.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The break-of-journey restrictions only apply on the outward leg. This is the same for Lancaster to London Terminals and London Terminals to Lancaster. You can break your journey on the return journey.

So you only need to double back through Lancaster, and pay the extra fare, once.
How's the OP getting from Preston to Blackpool North? And then back again from Blackpool to Preston (likely not the same day)?
 

Acathater

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If the OP does buy an Off Peak Return from London Terminals to/from Lancaster, and then doubles back from Lancaster to Preston, they'd then also need 2 x singles (i.e. one each way) between Preston and Blackpool North, as there's only advances, day singles and returns, not period returns, available on that flow.
Shouldn't that be between Lancaster and Blackpool North?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Shouldn't that be between Lancaster and Blackpool North?
OP would be using the return portion of their Off Peak Return (valid from Lancaster to London Terminals) and then breaking this journey at Preston, before heading off to Blackpool North. No need to pay twice for the leg between Lancaster and Preston.
 

Bletchleyite

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OP would be using the return portion of their Off Peak Return (valid from Lancaster to London Terminals) and then breaking this return journey at Preston before heading off to Blackpool North. No need to pay twice for the leg between Lancaster and Preston.

Good point - didn't think of that! :)
 
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Yes I am not encouraging fare evasion, just making it clear that it is completely valid to change trains on a ticket prohibiting break of journey while traveling along a permitted route - where relevant it is also permitted to go outside of the barriers to access station facilities (such as water refill points or toilets).
I was trying to find the 'black and white' on the latter point the other week, as the NRCoC (and possibly earlier iterations of the NRCoT) used to explicitly state that even if break of journey was not permitted that it was permitted to exit barriers/gates to use station facilities. However this no longer appears to be covered. It is not a trick question, or trying to make a point, but is anyone aware where this is now documented?
 

Bletchleyite

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I was trying to find the 'black and white' on the latter point the other week, as the NRCoC (and possibly earlier iterations of the NRCoT) used to explicitly state that even if break of journey was not permitted that it was permitted to exit barriers/gates to use station facilities. However this no longer appears to be covered. It is not a trick question, or trying to make a point, but is anyone aware where this is now documented?

The meaning of Break of Journey is no longer documented anywhere, I believe.
 

Egg Centric

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I was trying to find the 'black and white' on the latter point the other week, as the NRCoC (and possibly earlier iterations of the NRCoT) used to explicitly state that even if break of journey was not permitted that it was permitted to exit barriers/gates to use station facilities. However this no longer appears to be covered. It is not a trick question, or trying to make a point, but is anyone aware where this is now documented?

In the particular case of these tickets the restriction text specifically states "Break of journey is not permitted on the Outward journey, except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities."
 

ainsworth74

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The meaning of Break of Journey is no longer documented anywhere, I believe.

Correct one of the more odd choices of thing to omit from the NRCoT was any definition of what "Break of Journey" is anymore. I presume oversight rather than deliberate act but who really knows.
 

Kite159

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One solution would be to already hold a Preston - Blackpool ticket (as a physical ticket rather than an e-ticket), then change via the subway at Preston. In the unlikely event there being a revenue block within the subway itself, you can claim to have gone via the toilets (or overpriced shop) on platform 3/4 before boarding the Blackpool train.

Even if there is a revenue block to access platform 3/4, the chances of them actually marking physical tickets is low (whereas e-tickets will have a scan)
 

ExToC

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re the EUS to Lancaster off peak - Break of journey is not permitted on the Outward journey, except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities. https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=LAN&expert=on&flow=1&multi=0&fare=5&tkt=SVR

1 question
- does that in effect mean this is not an off peak /saver ticket as they most definitely do allow breaks of journey - in which case which condition trumps the other (these poodles are dogs, except for this particular poodle which I am unilaterally defining as a cat)
1 thought - what is a station facility? a unique shop or cafe on the station premises that lies on the other side of the gateline thus satisfying the condition above.....

If you have to shoehorn a lot of caveats and illogical so ons onto something to make it "work" then you should reconsider the basic premise.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for travelling short - No. What would likely be the outcome for consuming less of a product and refusing to pay extra for not doing so in order to satisfy some arcane RP strategy? well I somehow think the TOCs wouldn't be willing to risk testing it in court and setting a precedent not to their liking.
 

Hadders

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1 question - does that in effect mean this is not an off peak /saver ticket as they most definitely do allow breaks of journey - in which case which condition trumps the other (these poodles are dogs, except for this particular poodle which I am unilaterally defining as a cat)
Historically break of journey was not allowed on the outward portion of Saver Returns, what we now call Off Peak Returns. This was largely removed in the 2008 ‘simplification’ but some prohibitions still remain.

1 thought - what is a station facility? a unique shop or cafe on the station premises that lies on the other side of the gateline thus satisfying the condition above.....
It’s not defined as far as I know but I would say it’s a facility on railway premises.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for travelling short - No.
I don’t know.

What would likely be the outcome for consuming less of a product and refusing to pay extra for not doing so in order to satisfy some arcane RP strategy?
It’s likely that the person would need to pay an excess fare to the cheapest available fare for immediate travel that allows break of journey.

I somehow think the TOCs wouldn't be willing to risk testing it in court and setting a precedent not to their liking.
This isn’t really about revenue protection, it’s more about pricing and fares strategy.

If you ‘simplified’ off peak restrictions to say not valid until 09:30 then some longer distance journeys become very hard to do at off peak times. This sort of ‘easement’ for want of a better word gives longer distance passengers genuine off peak journey opportunities.

If it is abused, then I would guess that off peak restrictions will become more onerous from places north of Lancaster.
 

Tetchytyke

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What would likely be the outcome for consuming less of a product and refusing to pay extra for not doing so in order to satisfy some arcane RP strategy?
It’s in the National Rail Conditions of Travel that you have to buy an excess to a ticket which permits break of journey.

16.4 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

If you refuse to pay that excess, I see no reason why they couldn’t prosecute you.
 

Acathater

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Several people have in the past been reported as going to court for starting short at Preston on Lancaster-Euston off-peak returns
Does a Lancaster-Euston return have reciprocal restrictions as Euston-Lancaster?
 

snail

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Several people have in the past been reported as going to court for starting short at Preston on Lancaster-Euston off-peak returns
Does a Lancaster-Euston return have reciprocal restrictions as Euston-Lancaster?
See post 23 above.
 

philthetube

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Although the suggestions on how to get round the ticketing issues are very interesting the question I asked has not been answered..

Why Lancaster and not Blackpool?

This actually feels like a "well we have always done it like that" situation. Surely when you operate one train a day on a route you want to make it affordable.

I cannot see how ticketing issues come into play, If you are at Preston with an off peak ticket from London I cannot see how it would make any difference if the ticket said Blackpool or Lancaster.





On the Southbound service off peak from Blackpool only it would be very easy to enforce, just provide all passengers from Blackpool with evidence that they boarded at Blackpool and nick anyone who does not have this when should of Preston. Northbound I have already covered.
 

Egg Centric

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Although the suggestions on how to get round the ticketing issues are very interesting the question I asked has not been answered..

Why Lancaster and not Blackpool?

This actually feels like a "well we have always done it like that" situation. Surely when you operate one train a day on a route you want to make it affordable.

I cannot see how ticketing issues come into play, If you are at Preston with an off peak ticket from London I cannot see how it would make any difference if the ticket said Blackpool or Lancaster.






On the Southbound service off peak from Blackpool only it would be very easy to enforce, just provide all passengers from Blackpool with evidence that they boarded at Blackpool and nick anyone who does not have this when should of Preston. Northbound I have already covered.

Because the vast majority of trains going from Euston via Preston will stop at Lancaster (or from Lancaster to Euston will stop at Preston).

It is of course not impossible to get around this restriction and it's not against the rules to change in Preston but the fact that you're very unlikely to "need" to change in Preston means someone claiming to be doing it will stick out like a sore thumb. This isn't the case with a Blackpool ticket.
 

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