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Appeal Railway Fine ?

Helmp

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I think you need to appeal this on these four grounds. You need to set out your case again as though the reader has not seen any previous correspondence, and reference it / quote the relevant regulations - anything to make the reader's job easier.
Okay thank you.

Another other thing is that the seems to be a character limit on how much you can write, on the website it says 2000 characters, which isn't much to explain everything. And on the Appeal form they provide to send by post is also limited by space.

I'm pretty new to this forum, out of curiosity are there any examples of an appeal based not being up to regulations actually being accepted?
 

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MotCO

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Another other thing is that the seems to be a character limit on how much you can write, on the website it says 2000 characters, which isn't much to explain everything. And on the Appeal form they provide to send by post is also limited by space.
One thing you can do is upload attachments - so maybe include relevant copies of the regulations in a Word document attachment.
 

AlterEgo

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Doesn't matter if you include the ticket or not, you had to get past Agent You Should Have Said So At The Time again. Absolutely mind boggling levels of thickery on show by whoever is dealing with these appeals. Subnormal levels of English comprehension and reasoning.

Appeal a third time, hopefully you get someone who has passed Key Stage 3.
 

furlong

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There's no character limit on appeals. An attempt to impose one would put the appeals system in breach of the regulations. What other people have done successfully is upload their appeal as a PDF attachment.

I don't know what you signed, but a PF gets imposed on you - it does not involve any agreement - and nothing you signed is capable of overriding the regulations!

The ticket validity argument only matters after the appeal, when they still try to make you pay some fare but you argue nothing is due.

You should appeal in the traditional style where you anchor your reasoning in the regulations - see many other threads such as the old Stansted signage one https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189 Unfortunately it's a mistake to assume your appeals will be handled by competent people who are already familiar with the regulations they supposedly follow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The errors here are so fundamental and legion, that you should maybe try to take action to get that company's contract to perform this work suspended! The assessors involved need (re?)training and all their previous work ought to be subject to independent review.

Amongst everything else, they don't understand the most basic principle that a Penalty Fare only applies to travel on ONE train!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

All that's needed to uphold an appeal is very basic knowledge of the regulations. People don't need to know anything specific about you or your journey whatsoever to see that it could not possibly have been issued according to them!
 
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SuspectUsual

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The errors here are so fundamental and legion, that you should maybe try to take action to get that company's contract to perform this work suspended! The assessors involved need (re?)training and all their previous work ought to be subject to independent review.

Amongst everything else, they don't understand the most basic principle that a Penalty Fare only applies to travel on ONE train!

It seems to me that the problem with these assessors is that once they identify one perceived weakness in the appellant's statement they fixate on it at the expense of all other reasoning, logic, facts and information
 

Helmp

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You should appeal in the traditional style where you anchor your reasoning in the regulations - see many other threads such as the old Stansted signage one https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189 Unfortunately it's a mistake to assume your appeals will be handled by competent people who are already familiar with the regulations they supposedly follow.

Thank you! this helps.

I know that Regulations 10(5) is relevant in terms of WM not having authority to give a PF of boarding a cross country service. Is there any other regulations that are relevant to each of my points ? Or does regulation 10(5) apply to all ?

Here are the summary of each claim:

- WM can not give a penalty fare on behalf of XC
- False origin
- Origin stated on penalty fare is not a direct service that WM provides.
 

furlong

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You will have to follow the full logic through the regulations.
Something like:

18(2)(b), 16(3)(a) noting 18(4)

because
4(1), 4(3)(a), 10(5) - authority from XC to issue it must exist

or alternatively
6(1), 6(2)(b), 8, Schedule 1 1(f), (2) - No PF notices at Stockport with XC logo

or alternatively
5(1), 9(1A), 9(2A), 9(3a) - Stockport as I presume you explained (if unknown, previous stop of the train)

and further noting that the first appeal did not follow 16(4) as required in respect neither the train nor the boarding station under 16(5)(a) (and also the lack of authority through no XC notices under 6(2) but you maybe only implied that in the first appeal?)
 

Helmp

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update: it got rejected, the appeal service is a joke. I'll pay, but is there anything that can be done? I do want to thank you all the help in this anyways.
 

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gray1404

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I personally would not pay it. It has no legal basis regardless of the panels pathetic view. At this point I would complain to Transport Focus.

It is evident from their letter though that you have provided a copy of that you may have put some points in there that may have served as a distraction. There is reference to a signature?

I would simply focus on the facts that you had not travelled from the station on the notice nor had you travelled with West Midland Trains.

At this point I would make a complaint to Transport Focus. We have also seen a recent case where a customer made a complaint to the train company that issues their notice directly and the company actually of their own accord said they would take no further action.
 

AlterEgo

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Next stop is to pay the penalty fare and contact Transport Focus. They haven't engaged with the fundamental premise that you cannot be penalty fared for a journey with XC. Did you outline this in your appeal and submit your ticket? That's your central argument.
 

gray1404

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Also the panel have provided enough evidence in their letter that your notice was not valid. They have accepted that you did not travel with West Midland Trains.

I would also personally be making a formal complaint against the Appeals Body.
 

Alex C.

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The only way to guarantee that there will be no prosecution at the end of this is to pay the penalty. Unfortunately, I think that even if you were to be able to overturn the penalty, they could still prosecute given the evidence you've provided that you were unable to present a valid ticket at the time of travel.

You can complain to Transport Focus using their online form
I would also recommend raising the issue with your MP, particularly if they are in a marginal seat as they'll have one of their case workers look at it

I don't believe there is any route to complain to penalty services after a third stage appeal but Transport Focus will look at it.

Other posters may disagree, and I would post any draft before doing the above, but I think you are better off focusing on three specific points:

1. The fact you travelled on an operator who is not part of a penalty fare scheme and were then penalty fared
2. The fact you commenced your journey late enough that the rules mean you should have been able to resume it the next day [as I understand it, others can confirm]
3. The ridiculous and repeated assertion that if you don't challenge aspects of a penalty fare at the time it is issued, they will not take any arguments into consideration, despite the fact you were unaware of the scheme rules (and cannot be expected to know the legislation inside and out) at the time of issuance and only subsequently sought advice.
 
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blimmo

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Unfortunately, I think that even if you were to be able to overturn the penalty, they could still prosecute given the evidence you've provided that you were unable to present a valid ticket at the time of travel.
They cannot prosecute if the penalty fare appeal has been decided. Section 11 of the PF regs:
(3) Where a person falling within paragraph (1)(a) has appealed against the penalty fare under regulation 16, proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4) may only be brought against that person for the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket if the operator, on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged, notifies the relevant Appeal Panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before—

(a)the relevant Appeal Panel has decided the outcome of the appeal under regulation 16; or

(b)the time period mentioned in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires,

whichever is sooner.
They may decide to ignore the law but a prosecution would be unlawful imo.
 

gray1404

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The only way to guarantee that there will be no prosecution at the end of this is to pay the penalty. Unfortunately, I think that even if you were to be able to overturn the penalty, they could still prosecute given the evidence you've provided that you were unable to present a valid ticket at the time of travel.

You can complain to Transport Focus using their online form
I would also recommend raising the issue with your MP, particularly if they are in a marginal seat as they'll have one of their case workers look at it

I don't believe there is any route to complain to penalty services after a third stage appeal but Transport Focus will look at it.

Other posters may disagree, and I would post any draft before doing the above, but I think you are better off focusing on three specific points:

1. The fact you travelled on an operator who is not part of a penalty fare scheme and were then penalty fared
2. The fact you commenced your journey late enough that the rules mean you should have been able to resume it the next day [as I understand it, others can confirm]
3. The ridiculous and repeated assertion that if you don't challenge aspects of a penalty fare at the time it is issued, they will not take any arguments into consideration, despite the fact you were unaware of the scheme rules (and cannot be expected to know the legislation inside and out) at the time of issuance and only subsequently sought advice.

The OP did have a valid ticket. I would not say they have provided evidence that they could not present a valid ticket.
 

Alex C.

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They cannot prosecute if the penalty fare appeal has been decided. Section 11 of the PF regs:

They may decide to ignore the law but a prosecution would be unlawful imo.
I thought I'd put this in but must have forgotten it - we've seen magistrates ignoring that rule (and the ORR called it out in their review of prosecutions, section 5.25). I agree - a prosecution would be unlawful but given the Chief Magistrate has provided an opinion on the matter I would not be comfortable with the prospects of avoiding a prosecution or conviction in those circumstances.
The OP did have a valid ticket. I would not say they have provided evidence that they could not present a valid ticket.
Yes, I actually contradicted myself - as they couldn't make the journey overnight then the ticket would be valid so a prosecution should fail. This is why Railway Law is really unfair (imo) - if you risk the argument in court, and the magistrate doesn't like it, then you'll still receive the conviction and at that stage arguing it further becomes more complex, I'm not sure if we've seen any cases of arguing appeals with the Crown Court on the forum.
 

Watershed

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I've just seen this thread for the first time.

I agree that the appeals body's decisions are an absolute travesty, the number of procedural failings and things they've made up are unbelievable. But I would put that to one side and pursue it separately from the matter at hand.

The key decision is whether or not to pay the Penalty Fare. If it is paid, that will be the end of the matter as far as the train company is concerned and you can be fairly sure they will not be pursuing you any further. It leaves you with the option of still pursuing them, on your own terms, though. Therefore I can certainly see the attraction to this option.

If is is left unpaid, the correct route for the train company to pursue the matter would be to sue you in the County Court, since the Penalty Fares Regulations are quite clear that once a Penalty Fare has been subject to an appeal, the incident can no longer be prosecuted. However I am not aware of any train company which follows the correct procedure (a common theme here!), instead they all seem to ignore the law and unlawfully prosecute anyway. Some refer to the deeply questionable Chief Magistrate ruling (which is not binding, but they present as if to suggest it is) and others just bring prosecutions without even caring to address that provision.

Although any such prosecution would be unlawful, it would still fall on you to defend yourself, either procedurally or on the facts, and that is something that many people would not want to do unrepresented. If you do get representation, you cannot be sure you will recover all or even any of the costs of this - even if you succeed. Meanwhile the train company can apply for reimbursement from Central Funds, win or lose. The decision to end any prosecution would be the train company's, so you are on the back foot in any negotiations or discussions. As you can see, the system is tilted in the train companies' favour and cannot be described as even remotely fair, but it is the system we have and thus those are constraints you have to work within.

Given the circumstances I think I would reluctantly agree with the advice from others to pay the Penalty Fare for now, as it will take the threat of prosecution away and thus put the ball in your court (as it were!). I would then send a complaint to WMT setting out that you have paid the PF under threat of an unlawful prosecution but that you are claiming it back as unjust enrichment, due to their breach of the Regulations in issuing the Penalty Fare in the first place.

Furthermore, your original ticket was - I would suggest - valid. Penalty Fares cannot be issued merely because of a suspicion that you don't have a valid ticket; it requires your ticket to actually not be valid. Therefore WMT's staff unlawfully obtained your personal data when issuing the Penalty Fare, and so I would include in your complaint the fact they are in breach of the GDPR for that unlawful processing of personal data and that you are therefore claiming compensation for non-material damages (e.g. stress and time taken to deal with this) under Article 82 of the GDPR.

Of course you would expect WMT to refute both points but a complaint is the first step in escalating this matter, ultimately to Court if need be.

Separately, you should speak to Transport Focus to complain about the Penalty Fares appeals service due to their utter disregard for the Regulations. It is not a matter of interpretation that Penalty Fares must be issued from the station the train you boarded the train, and thus cannot be issued for indirect journeys, nor that Avanti and CrossCountry aren't Penalty Fares operators. These are incredibly basic facts which no competent appeals body could possibly be getting wrong. Again, I wouldn't hold out high hopes, we know from experience that Transport Focus is not very independently minded and tends to accept what train companies say. But it is worth a try at least.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The OP did have a valid ticket.
Was that definitely the case? The outward portion of a Leeds to Wolverhampton Off Peak Return (route "via Manchester") being used on the 2nd day after the OP had taken a break of journey?
 

Helmp

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Thank you for the advice, I'll pay, and try complaining to VMT and Transport Focus, and keep you all updated.
Was that definitely the case? The outward portion of a Leeds to Wolverhampton Off Peak Return (route "via Manchester") being used on the 2nd day after the OP had taken a break of journey?
Yes, I started my journey late, stayed overnight and continued the next day. I've heard differing opinions on here whether this is valid in my circumstances, due to different interpretations on overnight breaks. Online it just states "if the journey cannot be completed on the same day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day". Technically, when I travelled it would have been possible to complete it but ill be catching the last trains that day, so some people say its invalid as it was possible to complete the journey that day as there were trains. Others say it is valid as this rule was made to allow more convenient travel, and what constitutes as 'cannot be completed' is up to the person travelling.

Therefore WMT's staff unlawfully obtained your personal data when issuing the Penalty Fare, and so I would include in your complaint the fact they are in breach of the GDPR for that unlawful processing of personal data and that you are therefore claiming compensation for non-material damages (e.g. stress and time taken to deal with this) under Article 82 of the GDPR.
Has claiming compensation on this matter worked before?
 

Alex C.

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Furthermore, your original ticket was - I would suggest - valid. Penalty Fares cannot be issued merely because of a suspicion that you don't have a valid ticket; it requires your ticket to actually not be valid. Therefore WMT's staff unlawfully obtained your personal data when issuing the Penalty Fare, and so I would include in your complaint the fact they are in breach of the GDPR for that unlawful processing of personal data and that you are therefore claiming compensation for non-material damages (e.g. stress and time taken to deal with this) under Article 82 of the GDPR.
I fully agree with the rest of your post but I am not persuaded by this - the train company have a legitimate interest in detecting and preventing fraudulent travel and require personal details to investigate individual incidents. The fact it later transpires that the penalty fare was issued incorrectly doesn't mean the initial processing was unlawful. I think you would need an egregious mistake in the grounds for suspicion to get over this hurdle.

Even if this were deemed to be a breach, Article 82 claims are still very difficult to make out - whilst stress which exceeds the de minimis threshold can be compensable, in this case I think it would be a difficult argument that any stress arose from the breach of GDPR itself rather than from dealing with the penalty fare and associated legal action - and only the former is compensable under Article 82, even though one led to the other
 

AlterEgo

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I fully agree with the rest of your post but I am not persuaded by this - the train company have a legitimate interest in detecting and preventing fraudulent travel and require personal details to investigate individual incidents. The fact it later transpires that the penalty fare was issued incorrectly doesn't mean the initial processing was unlawful. I think you would need an egregious mistake in the grounds for suspicion to get over this hurdle.
This was an egregious mistake. The PF was issued when there was no reasonable suspicion; the OP did not even travel on a Penalty Fares operator!
 

Alex C.

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This was an egregious mistake. The PF was issued when there was no reasonable suspicion; the OP did not even travel on a Penalty Fares operator!
I disagree - the penalty fare was issued at the gateline, at a station that is served by operators who have penalty fare schemes. If saying you had travelled on CrossCountry were enough to make the suspicion unreasonable, everyone could deploy that argument as they travelled through. The TOC is entitled to verify the claim made by the passenger and to process personal data for that purpose. The suspicion doesn't become unreasonable in hindsight just because the passenger's account turned out to be true - at the time, it was an unverified assertion from the person under suspicion.

None of this changes the fact the penalty fare should have been cancelled, or that the appeals process sounds has been terrible. I just don't think GDPR is a particularly relevant angle to this case, and it serves to distract from the other issues.
 

AlterEgo

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I disagree - the penalty fare was issued at the gateline, at a station that is served by operators who have penalty fare schemes. If saying you had travelled on CrossCountry were enough to make the suspicion unreasonable, everyone could deploy that argument as they travelled through
Indeed they could, but the OP had a ticket evidencing their travel. That's why submitting the ticket has been a fundamental part of my advice for the appeal - anyone could just *say* that.
 

Alex C.

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Indeed they could, but the OP had a ticket evidencing their travel. That's why submitting the ticket has been a fundamental part of my advice for the appeal - anyone could just *say* that.
The OP presented a ticket for the previous day, which may or may not be valid depending on the circumstances - the NRCoT doesn't provide a clear-cut test here, so it will be judged on the facts - I do think that ambiguity should be resolved in the favour of the OP. I agree that if they had clearly arrived on CrossCountry, there would have been no reasonable grounds to obtain the details for the purpose of issuing a penalty fare (although they could process identical details to record a travel irregularity).

Unless I'm misreading the routing on the ticket, or I've missed something said earlier, it's entirely possible the OP travelled from Stockport via Crewe on a WMR service - in which case a penalty fare operator could have been involved. I appreciate that the OP has confirmed that they travelled on CrossCountry but at the gateline this was just an assertion.

If the inspector has suspicion, they are entitled to process the data for the purpose of investigation. The big gap in the system here is that the appeals process is meant to be where these issues get sorted out with the production of evidence - and it clearly hasn't done that job well in this case. But a failure at the appeal stage doesn't reach back and change the GDPR position at the gateline.
 

gray1404

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I disagree - the penalty fare was issued at the gateline, at a station that is served by operators who have penalty fare schemes. If saying you had travelled on CrossCountry were enough to make the suspicion unreasonable, everyone could deploy that argument as they travelled through. The TOC is entitled to verify the claim made by the passenger and to process personal data for that purpose. The suspicion doesn't become unreasonable in hindsight just because the passenger's account turned out to be true - at the time, it was an unverified assertion from the person under suspicion.

None of this changes the fact the penalty fare should have been cancelled, or that the appeals process sounds has been terrible. I just don't think GDPR is a particularly relevant angle to this case, and it serves to distract from the other issues.

How do you respond to the fact then the inspector who obtained the data issued the penalty fare from Tamworth to Wolverhampton when there are no trains running directly between those two stations.
 

Alex C.

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How do you respond to the fact then the inspector who obtained the data issued the penalty fare from Tamworth to Wolverhampton when there are no trains running directly between those two stations.
I don't think we disagree on the facts here - the notice records data that's plainly wrong (Tamworth, "issued on train", "no ticket"). WMT have a case to answer on that, and they should correct what they're holding. We don't know whether it was a keying error, a system quirk or something worse (be it deliberate or just bad training). But that's an accuracy problem, and accuracy is a separate question from whether taking the details was lawful in the first place - Byelaw 23 gives them the express right to require a passenger's name and address if they reasonably suspect a breach. The grounds for that existed before anything was typed into the device - a ticket dated the previous day, presented at the gateline (and the day-2 provision in the Off-Peak terms only applies where the timetable means the journey cannot be completed in one day - which doesn't seem to have been the case here). Whatever went wrong on the notice afterwards can't reach back and change that. If the OP wants to go down that route, they can contact the WMT DPO and ask them to rectify the data.

WMT can be entirely in the wrong about what they recorded and how the appeals were handled, while still having been entitled to take the details at the gateline - and both things can be pursued, just not as one claim. The accuracy issue gets fixed by asking them to rectify the record; the issue with the Appeals Service goes to Transport Focus. What doesn't follow from either is a clear Article 82 claim, which is very challenging to demonstrate - the stress here comes from the penalty fare and the appeals process, not from the act of taking a name and address, especially when they could have collected identical details for a TIR anyway.

I am not defending WMT here - they have behaved terribly and the inspector may well have deliberately manipulated the data to get the system to issue a penalty fare (a more generous interpretation is that the training they have is essentially "if you have a problem just pick a nearby station" - still wrong, but with a more innocent explanation). My point is purely around the GDPR angle which I don't think is a particularly strong one, in a case where there are much more favourable routes to arguing the matter.
 

Watershed

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Has claiming compensation on this matter worked before?
I have succeeded in claiming compensation for GDPR/DPA breaches on several occasions, yes. Not in relation to an irregularity or from a train company, but I do have a fair degree of familiarity with the law in this area.

I fully agree with the rest of your post but I am not persuaded by this - the train company have a legitimate interest in detecting and preventing fraudulent travel and require personal details to investigate individual incidents.
They would need to state that they are relying on 'legitimate interests' at the time; they cannot retrospectively change their lawful basis. Moreover 'legitimate interests' requires a balancing exercise where the individual's rights are balanced against the controller's interests. WMT do not appear to have conducted any such exercise, indeed their Privacy Policy sensibly doesn't try to rely on such a lawful basis for obtaining your name and address.

The fact it later transpires that the penalty fare was issued incorrectly doesn't mean the initial processing was unlawful. I think you would need an egregious mistake in the grounds for suspicion to get over this hurdle.
No Penalty Fare could have been issued lawfully because a valid ticket was shown - that would be the argument the OP would make. Moreover, even if the ticket was held to be invalid, the Regulations simply did not apply because the OP travelled on a CrossCountry service and so no Penalty Fare could lawfully be issued.

Even if this were deemed to be a breach, Article 82 claims are still very difficult to make out - whilst stress which exceeds the de minimis threshold can be compensable, in this case I think it would be a difficult argument that any stress arose from the breach of GDPR itself rather than from dealing with the penalty fare and associated legal action - and only the former is compensable under Article 82, even though one led to the other
The issuing of the Penalty Fare was predicated on obtaining the OP's personal data, so the stress was entirely a result of the unlawful processing. If the OP had not provided their personal details, there would have been no PF and thus no stress.

I disagree - the penalty fare was issued at the gateline, at a station that is served by operators who have penalty fare schemes. If saying you had travelled on CrossCountry were enough to make the suspicion unreasonable, everyone could deploy that argument as they travelled through.
The Penalty Fares Regulations do not allow a PF to be issued on grounds of suspicion. There needs to be actual ticketless travel, which took place on an operator participating in the Regulations (i.e. whose logo appears on a warning sign). Neither was present in this case and so it doesn't matter that someone else could have incorrectly claimed to have travelled on a different operator - that is a hypothetical which doesn't have any relevance to the OP's case.

The TOC is entitled to verify the claim made by the passenger and to process personal data for that purpose.
The OP presented a ticket for the previous day, which may or may not be valid depending on the circumstances - the NRCoT doesn't provide a clear-cut test here, so it will be judged on the facts - I do think that ambiguity should be resolved in the favour of the OP. I agree that if they had clearly arrived on CrossCountry, there would have been no reasonable grounds to obtain the details for the purpose of issuing a penalty fare (although they could process identical details to record a travel irregularity).

Unless I'm misreading the routing on the ticket, or I've missed something said earlier, it's entirely possible the OP travelled from Stockport via Crewe on a WMR service - in which case a penalty fare operator could have been involved. I appreciate that the OP has confirmed that they travelled on CrossCountry but at the gateline this was just an assertion.

If the inspector has suspicion, they are entitled to process the data for the purpose of investigation. The big gap in the system here is that the appeals process is meant to be where these issues get sorted out with the production of evidence - and it clearly hasn't done that job well in this case. But a failure at the appeal stage doesn't reach back and change the GDPR position at the gateline.
No personal details are needed to verify such claims - you first ask "where did you board the train?". As soon as the answer is Stockport, it will be either XC or Avanti the passenger travelled on, and so the PF regime is out of scope.

I reiterate the point that this was a PF and the Regulations do not give operators the power to require details to establish whether a PF is warranted. They only give that power if a passenger actually fails to produce a valid ticket.

The suspicion doesn't become unreasonable in hindsight just because the passenger's account turned out to be true - at the time, it was an unverified assertion from the person under suspicion.
If WMT's inspectors had required the OP to provide their details under the Byelaws, that would be a different matter as this works based on reasonable suspicion. But they evidently did not; they cannot suggest that details obtained for the purposes of a PFN were actually obtained under the Byelaws. That's just not credilbe.

None of this changes the fact the penalty fare should have been cancelled, or that the appeals process sounds has been terrible. I just don't think GDPR is a particularly relevant angle to this case, and it serves to distract from the other issues.
I am not defending WMT here - they have behaved terribly and the inspector may well have deliberately manipulated the data to get the system to issue a penalty fare (a more generous interpretation is that the training they have is essentially "if you have a problem just pick a nearby station" - still wrong, but with a more innocent explanation). My point is purely around the GDPR angle which I don't think is a particularly strong one, in a case where there are much more favourable routes to arguing the matter.
I appreciate what you're saying but I think it is a worthwhile angle to pursue this from, because it is the only remotely plausible way to get any compensation for the failings in this case.

There is nothing to be lost by including it in the complaint and ultimately any Court claim, and everything to be gained. I'm not sure how it distracts from other issues; it instead builds on them. The ticket was valid -> no PF could lawfully have been issued -> GDPR was breached by unlawfully requiring details -> non-material damages are due for the stress caused by dealing with the unlawful PF.

The matter was handled using a PF. Having decided that course of action it would not be cannot try to claim that they were actually also requiring the details

I don't think we disagree on the facts here - the notice records data that's plainly wrong (Tamworth, "issued on train", "no ticket"). WMT have a case to answer on that, and they should correct what they're holding. We don't know whether it was a keying error, a system quirk or something worse (be it deliberate or just bad training). But that's an accuracy problem, and accuracy is a separate question from whether taking the details was lawful in the first place - Byelaw 23 gives them the express right to require a passenger's name and address if they reasonably suspect a breach. The grounds for that existed before anything was typed into the device - a ticket dated the previous day, presented at the gateline (and the day-2 provision in the Off-Peak terms only applies where the timetable means the journey cannot be completed in one day - which doesn't seem to have been the case here). Whatever went wrong on the notice afterwards can't reach back and change that. If the OP wants to go down that route, they can contact the WMT DPO and ask them to rectify the data.
Rectification is a novel angle but given the point being made is that the whole Notice was unlawfully issued, I think asking for rectification risks giving it an air of legitimacy. Moreover the Regulations don't provide for PFNs to be changed after being issued.

See above re: the Byelaws.

WMT can be entirely in the wrong about what they recorded and how the appeals were handled, while still having been entitled to take the details at the gateline - and both things can be pursued, just not as one claim. The accuracy issue gets fixed by asking them to rectify the record; the issue with the Appeals Service goes to Transport Focus. What doesn't follow from either is a clear Article 82 claim, which is very challenging to demonstrate - the stress here comes from the penalty fare and the appeals process, not from the act of taking a name and address, especially when they could have collected identical details for a TIR anyway.
They didn't issue a TIR though - they cannot defend themselves based on the fact they might (or might not) have been entitled to use Byelaw 23. They didn't at the time and they therefore won't be able to retrospectively change their basis of processing.
 

furlong

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No need to pay at this stage and I think you'll weaken your position if you do. Write directly to Transport Focus - it should be quite an easy one for them to resolve as there are so many errors of law and each one alone is sufficient! (The reality we've seen from other threads is that once Transport Focus takes up a case with an operator, the train company pauses pursuit of it while the discussion ensues.)

We haven't seen the exact text you submitted, but we can surmise from the reply that you left a few gaps in the reasoning that they relied upon without understanding or checking for themselves. For anyone reading this thread later for their own appeal, there were some sentences I recommended using on other threads to the effect that before refusing the appeal in a clear-cut case like this they would be well advised to take legal advice (for their personal protection). That acts to remind them not to "wing it" and sets you up to pursue them personally for recklessly failing to discharge their duties in accordance with the law.

The prosecution situation mentioned above is much more nuanced though, as they might argue that because the PF was never capable of being valid as a matter of law, the post-appeal protection against prosecution never kicks in either. You're basically relying entirely on the interpretation that a journey commenced late in the day can be continued on the second day to avoid prosecution and I'd suggest finding all the documentation you can now in support of that position.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The grounds for that existed before anything was typed into the device - a ticket dated the previous day, presented at the gateline (and the day-2 provision in the Off-Peak terms only applies where the timetable means the journey cannot be completed in one day - which doesn't seem to have been the case here).

The ticket type was 'svr' wasn't it, and so this applies:
If you cannot complete your journey on the same day you will be allowed to finish it the following day - see 'Break of journey' below.
Break of journey is permitted unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.
Overnight break of journey - if the journey cannot be completed on the same day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day.

Given the subjectivity of the test and the arbitrary break of journey entitlement (just choose to break your journey such that when you attempt to resume it you "cannot complete" it the same day), the reality is tickets have to be accepted the second day.
 
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Swedenorer

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Given the circumstances I think I would reluctantly agree with the advice from others to pay the Penalty Fare for now, as it will take the threat of prosecution away and thus put the ball in your court (as it were!). I would then send a complaint to WMT setting out that you have paid the PF under threat of an unlawful prosecution but that you are claiming it back as unjust enrichment, due to their breach of the Regulations in issuing the Penalty Fare in the first place.
For the sum of £68 you immediately put yourself in the right and then have all the time in the world to follow every avenue suggested above. I suspect to the point that they'd pay anything to make you go away.
 

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