TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

AdamWW said:

That wasn't a test or mileage accumulation run - it was a passenger service.

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OK. So failures during passenger service don't count towards the "trouble free miles" statistics? Wouldn't that be the most realistic test of all?

Coleridge said:

OK. So failures during passenger service don't count towards the "trouble free miles" statistics? Wouldn't that be the most realistic test of all?

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My understanding is that you have to demonstrate that units are capable of fault free running before you can have passengers on board. It won't cover everything that can go wrong, but it will give you confidence that the units are safe enough for the public to ride.

Hi, does anyone know which 398s are still at Old Dalby? Thanks

Coleridge said:

OK. So failures during passenger service don't count towards the "trouble free miles" statistics? Wouldn't that be the most realistic test of all?

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I think we're at cross purposes.

Of course you can count statistics for whatever you like, and last week's runs could certainly be considered a test of how they cope with actual passenger use.

But I think of the phrase "test run" to describe a train that isn't in passenger service and my understanding is that these days trains have to accumulate a certain number of fault-free miles before they are put into operation and allowed to carry passengers.

As expected there doesn't seem to be any weekend paths for the 398s in service. I wonder if they'll be back out Monday or not.
It'll be interesting to see if this leads to a speed up of work on the bay line. Getting Platform 1 and the main passenger area of the station in place would be nice.

positron said:

As expected there doesn't seem to be any weekend paths for the 398s in service. I wonder if they'll be back out Monday or not.
It'll be interesting to see if this leads to a speed up of work on the bay line. Getting Platform 1 and the main passenger area of the station in place would be nice.

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They have The Food & Drink Festival on 3rd, 4th & 5th July 2026 & that attracts huge crowds. A pity that they still have not completed works at Cardiff Bay station.

"Cardiff Food and Drink Festival – one of the most popular events in the city’s summer calendar – returns to its regular venue in Roald Dahl Plass, Cardiff Bay with a host of regular stallholders and plenty of new ones, all offering a spectacular range of local produce and delicacies from around the world."

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Im outside Taffs Well depot and 398030 is about to leave (to Aberdare according to RTT)

40029 Saxonia said:

Hi, does anyone know which 398s are still at Old Dalby? Thanks

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398032 I believe.

398020 arrived at Taff Wells depot shortly after 030 left today (around 14:15). I counted 31 other 398s in addition to 020 and 030. So assuming 035 and 036 haven't been delivered, that leaves one unaccounted for. I was able to identify 22 of them

40029 Saxonia said:

398020 arrived at Taff Wells depot shortly after 030 left today (around 14:15). I counted 31 other 398s in addition to 020 and 030. So assuming 035 and 036 haven't been delivered, that leaves one unaccounted for. I was able to identify 22 of them

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You saw the whole fleet then034/035 still to be delivered and 032 at Old Dalby

800001 said:

398032 I believe.

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Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2026 ==

Gordonman said:

You saw the whole fleet then034/035 still to be delivered and 032 at Old Dalby

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Thanks

chargesmith said:

My understanding is that you have to demonstrate that units are capable of fault free running before you can have passengers on board. It won't cover everything that can go wrong, but it will give you confidence that the units are safe enough for the public to ride.

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That's on the national rail network, the units have only operated on privately owned infrastructure so far, which they can get away with.

There's also the biggest catch of them all, and that's the fact they are based on a depot that comes under full light rail regulations. It's the LRSSB (https://www.lrssb.org/) that applies on TW and not the RSSB rules. These do not apply until the units cross over onto the CVL in train mode. When they are first booted up, and keyed in, they are in 'Tram mode' and this needs to be changed over on the TMS. Driver's even have to check the tram equipment including brake lights and indicators as part of the setup. The shunter drivers who operate on TW don't even have to sit train driver assessments, no do they hold any competency as per shunter diver at Canton. That's all they require is a car license and some in house training. It means that faults for example trains could not leave a depot with don't, or may not apply in LRSSB.

Also the units used this week on service has had an affect on the training, there are only a handful that do work to a degree, and after a certain period they throw a spanner in the works and fail. Even if they can sort out the air conditoning, there's still a load issues with the units and we are nowhere near ready for a full 398 service on the TAM - let alone finding a couple for the Bay diagrams. I honestly don't even think they can be fixed, and will need replacing soon. Then there's the funding issue, they have no capital. But they have suposedly placed an order for +12!

Meanwhile there is still no offical documents from the ORR: https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-compliance/rail/health-safety/laws/interoperability/authorisations


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2026 ==

More information on Tram-Train can be obtained in this documentation which was issued by the LRSSB, it covers everything from network setup to competence.

VR494 said:

That's on the national rail network, the units have only operated on privately owned infrastructure so far, which they can get away with.

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Why would that make any difference to fault free running? It's not a network rail requirement AFAIK.

Also the units used this week on service has had an affect on the training, there are only a handful that do work to a degree, and after a certain period they throw a spanner in the works and fail.

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So like every pretty much every new fleet ever then, including Stadler Flirts.

Even if they can sort out the air conditoning, there's still a load issues with the units and we are nowhere near ready for a full 398 service on the TAM - let alone finding a couple for the Bay diagrams. I honestly don't even think they can be fixed, and will need replacing soon.

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Again, what we're seeing is a very typical introduction for a new fleet.

Then there's the funding issue, they have no capital. But they have suposedly placed an order for +12!

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Ha, even you don't believe some of the stuff you're posting!

Chris125 said:

Ha, even you don't believe some of the stuff you're posting!

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Please clarify on which stuff I don’t believe? I know for certain though these things are utter rubbish in design, and the public are persistently being misled.

They’ve ordered more. Why, you tell me? Surely they realise by now they’ve made a massive error of judgement, and wasted millions in tax payers money. But they have a fetish for all things tram now, and Penarth will be getting them and Coryton in time. That’s if they can get them to work for more than it takes for a cigarette to burn!

I did use the word supposedly because I haven’t seen the paperwork for the order, however they have ordered them and you’ll see soon enough I’ve been reliably told.

So far only the spotters seem to like them too! Between them and the engineering teams and staff, there’s no seats left for actual passengers on the things.

VR494 said:

I did use the word supposedly because I haven’t seen the paperwork for the order, however they have ordered them and you’ll see soon enough I’ve been reliably told.

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I’d be interested to see the public procurement notice for this, if it’s happened.

VR494 said:

There's also the biggest catch of them all, and that's the fact they are based on a depot that comes under full light rail regulations. It's the LRSSB (https://www.lrssb.org/) that applies on TW and not the RSSB rules. These do not apply until the units cross over onto the CVL in train mode. When they are first booted up, and keyed in, they are in 'Tram mode' and this needs to be changed over on the TMS. Driver's even have to check the tram equipment including brake lights and indicators as part of the setup. The shunter drivers who operate on TW don't even have to sit train driver assessments, no do they hold any competency as per shunter diver at Canton. That's all they require is a car license and some in house training. It means that faults for example trains could not leave a depot with don't, or may not apply in LRSSB

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What is the problem with any of that from a passenger pov?

Appreciate staff (or former staff in this case) may not be happy, but why on earth should passengers care that they are "trams first, trains second" as you are essentially claiming?

WelshBluebird said:

What is the problem with any of that from a passenger pov?

Appreciate staff (or former staff in this case) may not be happy, but why on earth should passengers care that they are "trams first, trains second" as you are essentially claiming?

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I use the CVL most days as a passenger and I don’t care about any of that! I used one of the trams this week and it was quite nice tbh better than a filthy clapped out diesel! The windows are amazing too even better than the flirts for views!The sooner TfW get them out and up to 4tph the better.

chargesmith said:

The full quote is:

"So where are the ‘398s’? They have been parked up behind high fences at the new high-security depot at Taffs Well for some time, while 5,000 miles of trouble-free running are achieved up with half a dozen sets, after which lower distances will be expected of later units when confidence improves."

If we take half a dozen to mean exactly six, then each unit will have done around 833 miles each.

For context its around a 34 mile round trip from the depot to Treherbert, Aberdare or Merthyr, so by my count you could achieve this with 25 test runs per unit, so 150 runs in total.

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I am reading that as 5,000 miles per unit . Otherwise why say its less for later units ?. Otherwise TfW could instead argue no FFR is required for subsequent units if one lot of 5,000 has already been achieved over the first six.

I can guess at a reason for a bit of bad wording btw.
"are achieved up with half a dozen sets" was probably proof read and altered from "are chalked up with half a dozen sets". Someone replaced "chalked" with "achieved" but forgot to lose the word "up".

Then again when I read it as chalked up I feel inclined to agree it is an average of 833 !/3 miles for each of the first six 398s.

Take your pick but I can guess the text has been improved by too many cooks (so to speak).

VR494 said:

When they are first booted up, and keyed in, they are in 'Tram mode' and this needs to be changed over on the TMS.

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Do you mean the first time they are ever switched on after being delivered to depot or every time a driver turns them on?

Having now had a chance to try a 398, I liked what I saw.

Some random thoughts (probably repeating my previous posts to some extent):

The way they are fitted out makes them feel very much like a train not a tram to me - unlike the 399s in Sheffield. Though having some straps to hang from is a novelty.
It's laid out like a train, and the seats have tray tables except for the bays at each end with fixed tables.
Aside from the lack of toilets I suspect that most passengers won't see them as much of a downgrade from a FLIRT.
Indeed I could easily imagine some people not even noticing the difference - in my experience most people don't pay much attention to what a train looks like on the outside.
They have level boarding and inside there are similar seats, colouring and information system.

I suppose someone who likes to sit at a fixed table will find it harder to get one, and if they run on their own to replace a 4 car FLIRT then the reduced capacity will definitely be an issue at times.
But at the moment as they are replacing 150s neither of the above apply.

The ride seemed somewhat livelier than a FLIRT - possibly that will bother some people.

The enthusiasts I talked to seemed quite...enthusiastic.
I didn't talk to many regular passengers but the ones I did talk to seemed quite happy with them.
From the little I've seen so far I'd be happy enough to commute on them - so long as it isn't too hot.
Temperatures like last week are unusual though so I expect for much of the year they will be fine as they are.

They have some advantages over FLIRTs - big windows with relatively narrow pillars, and a level floor rather than having steps up at the ends and seats on raised platforms. And of course no engine module in the middle.
And much faster gap fillers - the doors open much more quickly once the button is pressed.
The much smaller lag in manual announcements is also a great improvement over the way the FLIRT PAs work.

I'm sure they will sort out the Welsh announcements which currently say that the train is calling at the terminus only (the 231s did the same thing when they were new).

I don't have any inside information but from what I saw the first week seemed to go as well as could be expected. Given how long it's taken to get one into service I'm sure this reflects a lot of hard work behind the scenes.

crZiller said:

I do have one massive complaint though. I'd like to be able to see through the front AND to just have a big window at the back with seats facing it :P

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Absolutely - and balloon loops at the termini to turn them round...

But more seriously it's not obvious to me that we couldn't have had cab views like on the 399s.

chargesmith said:

In regards to door operations, given the 398s are currently limited to the same timetable as the 150s there's no significant benefit to speeding up door open and close procedures, especially while staff are still getting used to new units, so whatever they are doing on these services may be a temporary arrangement and a faster process may come later.

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This week they seemed to be using both driver and guard control of the doors (at different times).
With the driver working the doors then I don't think that anything is needed to speed things up further - having the guard give the signal to close the doors doesn't exactly add much time.
With the guard working the doors then the dwell time seems somewhat extended compared to a 150. Even though the gap fillers are quite fast they aren't instant and when the guard shuts the local door it doesn't start closing until the alarm has sounded. I'm pretty sure that on a 150 the local door just shuts without an alarm.

VR494 said:

Also the units used this week on service has had an affect on the training

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Though they did appear to be using some of the runs for guard training.

VR494 said:

That's on the national rail network, the units have only operated on privately owned infrastructure so far, which they can get away with.

There's also the biggest catch of them all, and that's the fact they are based on a depot that comes under full light rail regulations. It's the LRSSB (https://www.lrssb.org/) that applies on TW and not the RSSB rules. These do not apply until the units cross over onto the CVL in train mode. When they are first booted up, and keyed in, they are in 'Tram mode' and this needs to be changed over on the TMS. Driver's even have to check the tram equipment including brake lights and indicators as part of the setup. The shunter drivers who operate on TW don't even have to sit train driver assessments, no do they hold any competency as per shunter diver at Canton. That's all they require is a car license and some in house training. It means that faults for example trains could not leave a depot with don't, or may not apply in LRSSB.

Also the units used this week on service has had an affect on the training, there are only a handful that do work to a degree, and after a certain period they throw a spanner in the works and fail. Even if they can sort out the air conditoning, there's still a load issues with the units and we are nowhere near ready for a full 398 service on the TAM - let alone finding a couple for the Bay diagrams. I honestly don't even think they can be fixed, and will need replacing soon. Then there's the funding issue, they have no capital. But they have suposedly placed an order for +12!

Meanwhile there is still no offical documents from the ORR: https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-compliance/rail/health-safety/laws/interoperability/authorisations

Register of Authorised Types of railway Vehicles | Office of Rail and Road

This page lists vehicles registered on the UK Register of Authorised Types of railway Vehicles (the UK Register), kept by ORR.

www.orr.gov.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2026 ==

More information on Tram-Train can be obtained in this documentation which was issued by the LRSSB, it covers everything from network setup to competence.

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So a depot for Trams operates under Tram Depot regulations that is normal and completely justified. Just like earlier in the thread when you claimed the depot had too tight a curve when it is of a similar degree to other tram depots in England (Trafford, Stargate, Supertram etc.)

I really do not understand your hatred for these units and the metro idea. You even claim here you don't think they can be fixed which when they have actually entered service this week with the service being as good as any other recently introduced units. Respectfully as all if not nearly all of the units have already been delivered this just comes across as delusional.
You have said yourself this project has been a massive capital investment to give up now because of some crossed wires or dodgy computers would be nothing short of insane. Look at how long the 701s took to get into service and they should of been a much easier task as 'less complicated' straight forward DC metro units, they were not abandoned.
I have a feeling that if you were ex Merseyrail or Tyne and Wear metro you would have been saying the same things about the troubles the 777s and 555s had during their introductions PIS faults, CCTV faults, Brake Faults, Computer Faults, Door Faults, also not being able to work in multiple 777s.

You seem to think the creation of the Cardiff metro is some big conspiracy it's not it's an idea to provide a better more valued service to Cardiff and it's surrounding area.
There is nothing inferior in the choice of light rail to provide a fast frequent metro service for the city and valleys. In fact it has operational benefits of being a cheaper method of operation therefore more cost effective.

These units have been ordered with the purpose of being similar to Sheffield's Tram-Trains and Manchester's Trams, to create a system similar to Metrolink in Manchester. If in 20 years time the city of Cardiff and the Cardiff Metro system has undergone the same economic growth and network expansion and improvements Manchester and the Metrolink has been through in the past 20 then this will be a great success.

AdamWW said:

They have some advantages over FLIRTs - big windows with relatively narrow pillars, and a level floor rather than having steps up at the ends and seats on raised platforms. And of course no engine module in the middle.
And much faster gap fillers - the doors open much more quickly once the button is pressed.
The much smaller lag in manual announcements is also a great improvement over the way the FLIRT PAs work.

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I believe up thread it was mentioned that TFW worked with Stadler and Merseyrail to avoid some of the problems the 777s had, hopefully this means that Merseyrail can work with TFW and Stadler to implement these new lessons and improvements, as a faster gap filler and any PIS improvements would be great.

390112A said:

I believe up thread it was mentioned that TFW worked with Stadler and Merseyrail to avoid some of the problems the 777s had, hopefully this means that Merseyrail can work with TFW and Stadler to implement these new lessons and improvements, as a faster gap filler and any PIS improvements would be great.

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Well actually it seems to me that the two bits of Stadler might want to talk to each other...

6opher said:

Do you mean the first time they are ever switched on after being delivered to depot or every time a driver turns them on?

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Every time they are keyed in they will need to be switched from Tram to TRAIN mode manually. The default setting on them is TRAM, and that’s how it appears on the TMS too, a maximum speed of 45mph in that. If you apply the DRA on the the move, I was told the dynamic braking is also lost in TRAIN mode.

VR494 said:

If you apply the DRA on the the move, I was told the dynamic braking is also lost in TRAIN mode.

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Something that happens on most if not all trains with dynamic braking, including the 197s in the same TOCs fleet. Strangely the world doesn't seem to have ended.....

Mark Hooper - Deputy Transport Minister in the new Plaid Cymru Government - is on Politics Wales at 10am Sunday 28 June 2026 BBC 1Wales.

I think this was already mentioned earlier in thread but I didn't pick up on it, but the morning only in service arrangement appears to be continuing tomorrow - I was under the impression that this was due to the extreme heat so maybe there is another reason for it.

chargesmith said:

I think this was already mentioned earlier in thread but I didn't pick up on it, but the morning only in service arrangement appears to be continuing tomorrow - I was under the impression that this was due to the extreme heat so maybe there is another reason for it.

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Looking back in this thread, there's a post on the Thursday of the week before they started saying that paths were in Realtimetrains for a morning only 398 service.

This was before the other changes were put in (Coryton line and the Bay running as shuttles).

Looking back at news headlines, for the Thursday I see amber heat warnings being mentioned only for the South of England. It's only on the Friday that Wales is mentioned as also being affected.

VR494 said:

Every time they are keyed in they will need to be switched from Tram to TRAIN mode manually. The default setting on them is TRAM, and that’s how it appears on the TMS too, a maximum speed of 45mph in that.

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If you’ve actually been on one you would know that is 100% NOT the case.

In fact, the default rocker switch position has been the exact opposite of what you are saying.

You need to stop listening to your source fella as they don’t half tell you some BS.

AdamWW said:

Looking back in this thread, there's a post on the Thursday of the week before they started saying that paths were in Realtimetrains for a morning only 398 service.

This was before the other changes were put in (Coryton line and the Bay running as shuttles).

Looking back at news headlines, for the Thursday I see amber heat warnings being mentioned only for the South of England. It's only on the Friday that Wales is mentioned as also being affected.

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Interesting. In RTT it says the morning only arrangement will continue all week and revert to normal at the weekend and leading into next week, but it could be that they haven't amended the timetable past Friday yet.

There was no Pontypridd - Bay service yesterday but it seems to be running normally today with 150s.

Maybe it's morning only to lower the chances of something going wrong just while they're doing the initial putting into service. I believe the 231s were on very limited diagrams initially. Same with 756s. Perhaps it's also related to the fact they're not using the wires at the Bay?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2026 ==

Also are they possibly reserving the afternoon paths to be used for training on the other 398s?