• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Near miss(?) - Chesterfield South Junction

RailwayRookie

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2023
Messages
268
Location
Norfolk
I more meant that if the line was only signalled in one direction, then the route from the signal protecting the points to the line occupied by the freight train wouldn't .
If an individual points switch is used, the interlocking doesn't care what is around the points, as long as nothing is ON the points. And will let you move them until you get bored doing so.

The lay of the points as they are here (assuming both ends were in reverse as they are designed to be) is a perfectly valid position for the points to be in and that's all that matters for them to be moved.

The signal however, when you try to clear it, will then see it either isnt a valid route, or that there is already a train there. And not clear.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

saltywalrus

Member
Joined
21 May 2022
Messages
29
Location
Lancaster
If an individual points switch is used, the interlocking doesn't care what is around the points, as long as nothing is ON the points. And will let you move them until you get bored doing so.

The lay of the points as they are here (assuming both ends were in reverse as they are designed to be) is a perfectly valid position for the points to be in and that's all that matters for them to be moved.

The signal however, when you try to clear it, will then see it either isnt a valid route, or that there is already a train there. And not clear.
That would definitely be the case if they were controlled by a mechanical signalbox, but Clay Cross North junction is controlled by the East Mids Control Centre so works on the principle of setting routes, rather than operating individual points / signals.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,589
Location
Nottingham
Would some fault lie on the driver also if this is the case? Drivers are instructed to check position of points during an S5: Pass Signal At Danger.
I'd say the driver deserves credit for stopping so soon after being unexpectedly diverted and/or seeing the next set of points was wrongly set.
That would definitely be the case if they were controlled by a mechanical signalbox, but Clay Cross North junction is controlled by the East Mids Control Centre so works on the principle of setting routes, rather than operating individual points / signals.
Although non-mechanical signalling works by routes, there is always also a facility to lock any set of points in a particular setting. It can be used for example if one diverging track is under possession, and routes that don't need that point in the other setting still work normally. It's also used if the signaller has control of the points but can't clear the signal, typically because of a track circuit failure, in which case the train is verbally instructed to pass it at danger. From what was posted above it appears even that wasn't possible and it was down to the last fallback of sending someone out to move the points by hand.
 

rower40

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2008
Messages
577
As it was a down-direction train, I would expect that both ends of the crossover should have been normal. My guess is that the driver applied the brakes as soon as they saw the facing point lying reverse. That they stopped short of the trailing point ( which would have been damaged by the train ‘trailing through’) is a silver lining to this particular cloud.
 

david1212

Established Member
Joined
9 Apr 2020
Messages
1,754
Location
Midlands
Would some fault lie on the driver also if this is the case? Drivers are instructed to check position of points during an S5: Pass Signal At Danger.
I'd say the driver deserves credit for stopping so soon after being unexpectedly diverted and/or seeing the next set of points was wrongly set. ....
Short of actually getting off the train and physically walking ahead to see the position of the point(s) how far ahead can this be visually determined? From the cab realistically will they only see when almost on the point or determine the position by the route the train takes? Here from the cab better viewing than say a Class 37 or either a Class 08 or Class 20 running nose first. The photographs in the first post are clearly from an elevated position.

If the driver had been authorised to pass a signal at danger presumably either by specific instruction and/or general regulations they should not be exceeding a given speed.

Whatever the lead up as @edwin_m says the driver stopped the train well ahead of the next set of points never mind the other train.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
Would some fault lie on the driver also if this is the case?
The train stopped on the points, so I’d say the driver hit the brake the second they realised the points weren’t correctly set. I don’t see how you can criticise the driver for that, they were clearly driving at a sensible speed for them to stop where they did.
 

TrainOnLine

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
15
Yes, maybe I am being overly harsh.
In an ideal world each point would be checked at a crawl pace or at a stand before traversing.
 
Last edited:

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,674
The lay of the points as they are here (assuming both ends were in reverse as they are designed to be) is a perfectly valid position for the points to be in and that's all that matters for them to be moved.
It does not look as though they are both in reverse. For the train to have stopped where it did the facing end would need to be reverse, but the trailing end is quite clearly normal in the photos.
 

RailwayRookie

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2023
Messages
268
Location
Norfolk
It does not look as though they are both in reverse. For the train to have stopped where it did the facing end would need to be reverse, but the trailing end is quite clearly normal in the photos.
Correct, that's why I added the caveat to my post about how they are designed.

Funnnily enough so someone didn't mention the points situation as a counter point to what i was trying to convey about setting then against oncoming traffic.

Its clear to people that understand switches that either the A or B end is out of correspondence, and undoubtedly that's a huge factor in what has happened here.
 

Annetts key

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2021
Messages
3,788
Location
West is best
Varies by place but the interlocking will let the route be set regardless of signalling direction, it will be the signal interlocking itself that checks the occupation (or lack thereof) of the section ahead, then a valid route is set and then shows a proceed aspect.

Theoretically if the passenger train was 200 meters back and behind a signal, the signaller could route the trains into each other, but the signal wouldn't clear (if everything is working correctly)

Essentially what im saying is the signalling doesn't know which train will move next and so allows a route to be set as long as all other prerequisites for the route are met.

If an individual points switch is used, the interlocking doesn't care what is around the points, as long as nothing is ON the points. And will let you move them until you get bored doing so.

The lay of the points as they are here (assuming both ends were in reverse as they are designed to be) is a perfectly valid position for the points to be in and that's all that matters for them to be moved.

The signal however, when you try to clear it, will then see it either isnt a valid route, or that there is already a train there. And not clear.

That would definitely be the case if they were controlled by a mechanical signalbox, but Clay Cross North junction is controlled by the East Mids Control Centre so works on the principle of setting routes, rather than operating individual points / signals.
Note, for ease of wording, where I say track circuit, it could be an axle counter section instead.

For route relay interlocking (PSB / Panels) and later computer based interlocking systems the following general principles apply:

Points

Power operated points must be electrically locked if the track circuit that runs through that set of points is occupied. For multi-ended points (e.g. either end of a crossover) all of them will be locked when any track circuit over any end is occupied.

If no routes are set over the points, and all approach locking is free (meaning no approaching train or the possibility of an approaching train because a signal has been cleared and then put back to red) and the relevant track circuits (as described above) are clear, then the signaller can operate the points via the individual point switch (IPS) or the points can be automatically be called via the route calling relay (or equivalent) which operates when the signaller routes a signal.

If point to point locking or flank protection is being used in the interlocking, then that may restrict which points can be moved.

When the above conditions are met, the signaller can put the points in any position they want. However, multi-ended points will all be called to move at the same time as they are all controlled by the same IPS (e.g. both ends of a crossover).

Routes

The interlocking checks if the signaller is trying to set a valid route. If what the signaller is trying is not a valid route, nothing will happen (although with some systems, e.g. computer based interlocking, the entry button light will light up when pressed, but then go out when the interlocking rejects the invalid route).

If a route has already been set, and the signaller tries to set an opposing route (i.e. route two trains in a converging move on the same line) into the same signal section, the interlocking will reject this. This is called opposing locking. Note that it does not stop the signaller (or ARS) from setting a route towards another train if there is a complete signal section that is free of route locking.

If a route has already been set, and the signaller tries to set a converging route, the interlocking will reject this.

When setting a route, the position of all the points is checked by the interlocking. If any are not in the correct position, the interlocking calls the points to move. It then checks that they have all moved to the correct position. If any have not been detected as being in the correct position the signal will not clear (signallers call this detection, S&T call this correspondence). By correspondence, S&T mean: the points have been called to the correct position, and they are detected (proved) to be in the position they were required to be called to including all ends of multi-ended points.

Note that in most systems, the route calling relay (or equivalent) ignores the status of track circuits. hence a route can be called even if there is a train in the section. However, if the track circuit directly locks any points or the track circuit is maintaining the route locking any and all points held electrically locked by this will not be called to move.

Signal Interlocking

The signal will only clear if all the relevant track circuits are clear and all the relevant points are detected in the correct position. As soon as these conditions are no longer true, the signal will go back to red.

Point Failures

If a set of power operated points cannot be operated on power or there is any other reason why power operation is not possible, (including track circuit failure, point detection failure, the facing point lock failing to operate), then the points can be operated manually.

However, if detection cannot be obtained, then the signal will not be able to be cleared. In which case, the signaller must advise the driver of the circumstances and give them permission to pass the signal at red. Of course, the MOM (or other route setting agent) has to ensure that ALL the points are in the correct position. There are box instruction that should list the required point positions for all valid signal routes.

And yes, it is also the job of the train driver to check that the points are set correctly when this happens. So the train should proceed at a suitable slow speed so that the driver can do this.

Please note that I have not included all the details. I think I got all the important ones. Other forum members please shout out if I've missed anything.

Edited to correct the word "working" with "wording".
 
Last edited:

DDB

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
726
Is it the case that a driver given permission to pass a signal at danger has to proceed being able to stop short of any obstruction?

In which case they have managed to do so.
 

Mugby

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2012
Messages
2,128
Location
Derby
Surely this was at Tapton Junction not Chesterfield South as the title states?
 

CalderRail

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2013
Messages
281
It does not look as though they are both in reverse. For the train to have stopped where it did the facing end would need to be reverse, but the trailing end is quite clearly normal in the photos.
That may have been set afterwards, for train protection purposes.

EDIT: What I mean by this is that the signallers first instinct, when told the points are set wrong, will be to put them right in an effort to protect the train(s). As noted, the signals are controlled from elsewhere.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,497
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
Points failure and the signaler (or points operator) has not manually set or checked the points were laying correct before authorising the train to pass the signal at danger.

That was my thought when I noticed the member of staff at the scene!

Surely this was at Tapton Junction not Chesterfield South as the title states?

No, Tapton Junction is north of Chesterfield, 1Y14 is a Nottingham-Leeds train heading north towards Chesterfield.
 

Tractor37

Member
Joined
23 May 2017
Messages
294
Is it the case that a driver given permission to pass a signal at danger has to proceed being able to stop short of any obstruction?

In which case they have managed to do so.
Yep. When authorised to pass a signal at danger. Part of the message given by the signaller is “proceed at caution at a speed you can observe the line to be clear being prepared to stop short of any obstruction, ensuring any points are set correctly”.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,458
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
Yep. When authorised to pass a signal at danger. Part of the message given by the signaller is “proceed at caution at a speed you can observe the line to be clear being prepared to stop short of any obstruction, ensuring any points are set correctly”.
Exactly, which would be why the driver was able to a) see the wrongly-set points ahead and, b) stop. I imagine the train would have been doing under 10mph. What is baffling to me is how anyone would think that clipping the facing points as was done (i.e. to run wrong-line) was correct! I also wonder why the driver accepted the wrong road in the first place. If being routed wrong road would not a double-check with the signaller be required?
 

saismee

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2023
Messages
1,674
Location
UK
Exactly, which would be why the driver was able to a) see the wrongly-set points ahead and, b) stop. I imagine the train would have been doing under 10mph. What is baffling to me is how anyone would think that clipping the facing points as was done (i.e. to run wrong-line) was correct! I also wonder why the driver accepted the wrong road in the first place. If being routed wrong road would not a double-check with the signaller be required?
It all depends on which train the person was told would be going first. If the person on the ground was told that the intermodal would move first, then it's a valid configuration (assuming that was the correct routing for it).
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,549
Location
Somewhere
Exactly, which would be why the driver was able to a) see the wrongly-set points ahead and, b) stop. I imagine the train would have been doing under 10mph. What is baffling to me is how anyone would think that clipping the facing points as was done (i.e. to run wrong-line) was correct! I also wonder why the driver accepted the wrong road in the first place. If being routed wrong road would not a double-check with the signaller be required?
The driver didn’t accept the wrong road. That is why they stopped. Even doing under 10 mph it takes time and distance to stop.
 

Annetts key

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2021
Messages
3,788
Location
West is best
If so could the handsignalman have made the mistake of only clipping one end of the crossover?
A route setting agent must confirm that the points have been set correctly (unless it's not a complex junction, but I forget the criteria), this is normally a MOM. And a MOM or an S&T team are normally the first to attend a points failure.

Hence handsignallers or more correctly for manual operation of points, "point operators" are not very common these days.
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
5,566
Location
The West Country
A route setting agent must confirm that the points have been set correctly (unless it's not a complex junction, but I forget the criteria), this is normally a MOM. And a MOM or an S&T team are normally the first to attend a points failure.

Hence handsignallers or more correctly for manual operation of points, "point operators" are not very common these days.
Being remote from the location perhaps the signalman assumed that the RSA/MOM had clipped both end of the crossover and subsequently authorised movements over the points. Having no detection the SM would have to accept the word of the person on the ground. Pure speculation of course.
 

Signal Head

Member
Joined
26 May 2013
Messages
458
Varies by place but the interlocking will let the route be set regardless of signalling direction, it will be the signal interlocking itself that checks the occupation (or lack thereof) of the section ahead, then a valid route is set and then shows a proceed aspect.

Theoretically if the passenger train was 200 meters back and behind a signal, the signaller could route the trains into each other, but the signal wouldn't clear (if everything is working correctly)

Essentially what im saying is the signalling doesn't know which train will move next and so allows a route to be set as long as all other prerequisites for the route are met.
No.
Sorry, but that's just a confused mess.

If there is no valid route between two geographical points, then there is no route to set, irrespective of interlocking type. Signaller can push all the buttons they want, but if it's not a recognised/valid route then nothing will happen.

Unless there is conflicting route locking being maintained by track circuit occupation then track circuit occupation is not normally checked as part of the route-setting process - that comes afterwards, ie once the route has been set (which 'calls' points to the correct positions) then the aspect controls will prove points set and locked as required, and that they correspond with the route set, track circuits/axle counter sections clear or occupied as required, and only when all those conditions are satisfied will the signal be able to show a proceed aspect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If an individual points switch is used, the interlocking doesn't care what is around the points, as long as nothing is ON the points. And will let you move them until you get bored doing so.
Not if a route has been set through the points it won't, irrespective of whether there is a train in the route or not.

The lay of the points as they are here (assuming both ends were in reverse as they are designed to be) is a perfectly valid position for the points to be in and that's all that matters for them to be moved.
The ends are out of correspondence, one Normal and one Reverse. Possibly the end which is facing (to the misrouted train) has failed to respond to the call and remained Reverse after a previous move, or maybe it has been put or left in that position manually (on the ground) by mistake.

Either way, there will be no valid detection, so even if there is a valid route in the interlocking there isn't going to be a proceed aspect.
 
Last edited:

CalderRail

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2013
Messages
281
Article here: https://www.saferhighways.co.uk/pos...in-routed-towards-occupied-line-at-clay-cross

Content confirms that the points issue was known prior to the incident, and the incorrect routing happened while the points were under manual control.

This would seem to indicate that there was a miscommunication between the signaller and the Network Rail team controlling the points.

They also strongly make the point that the entire affair happened at low speed:

While the incident did not result in a collision risk, it serves as a reminder of the importance of robust procedures, signalling systems and operational safeguards when infrastructure failures occur. The combination of reduced speeds, driver vigilance, signalling protection and manual operating controls ensured the situation was identified and resolved safely.
 

RailwayRookie

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2023
Messages
268
Location
Norfolk
If there is no valid route between two geographical points, then there is no route to set, irrespective of interlocking type. Signaller can push all the buttons they want, but if it's not a recognised/valid route then nothing will happen.
Let's make sure we aren't confusing setting a route and calling a route.

I am talking about manually setting the route. To move the freight over the points onto the adjacent line (where the passenger train was coming from) IS a valid move and so the point control will allow you to SET that route.

The interlocking will not let you CALL that route because it isnt valid (in this case because of the occupation of the points), in the same way it will not let you CALL the route the passenger train was taking here, because the route is invalid.

So if we imagine both trains are behind their respective signals before the points. The points can be set either Reverse or Normal as long as the controlling track circuits are not occupied. As we are not CALLING the route, The system will allow the points to be swung as they do not know what you are going to do next.

This was also stated in user Annetts Keys reply above.
The ends are out of correspondence, one Normal and one Reverse. Possibly the end which is facing (to the misrouted train) has failed to respond to the call and remained Reverse after a previous move, or maybe it has been put or left in that position manually (on the ground) by mistake.

Either way, there will be no valid detection, so even if there is a valid route in the interlocking there isn't going to be a proceed aspect.
Which is exactly as I said.

The crux of my point was that the route can be physically SET regardless of if one of the lines is bi-directionally signalled or not. But the signalling wouldn't allow a proceed aspect to be shown.

You are more than welcome to come visit me at work and ill let you set all the conflicting and invalid routes you desire.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,458
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
The driver didn’t accept the wrong road. That is why they stopped. Even doing under 10 mph it takes time and distance to stop.
Sorry, but the train set off with the points set incorrectly, which surely should have been very clearly visible to the driver. That's what I meant by accepting the wrong road, rather than a signalled move.
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,549
Location
Somewhere
Sorry, but the train set off with the points set incorrectly, which surely should have been very clearly visible to the driver. That's what I meant by accepting the wrong road, rather than a signalled move.
The driver would have been authorised to pass the signal at danger which would have been someway away from the points., they do not know for certain if the points are correctly set untill they visually see them.
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,674
Sorry, but the train set off with the points set incorrectly, which surely should have been very clearly visible to the driver. That's what I meant by accepting the wrong road, rather than a signalled move.
No matter how good your eyesight you’re not going to see the lie of a set of points from 800m away and around a bend. Driver is not at fault here.

You would need to be quite close to tell given that the toe of the switch opens approximately 11cm and it was a sunny day, so likely to be heat haze and shimmer near the rails.
 

Top