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Failures in hot weather. What needs to change?

AndrewE

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9 Nov 2015
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7,299
It may be technically safe, but why purposely restrict your water intake?
nobody is suggesting that. Just stating the fact that it is perfectly safe to (only) have liquid at breakfast time, work normally (i.e. nothing like shearing sheep) until you take a break and have a drink then if needed, lunch with whatever you want to drink then repeat until bed-time... Certainly drink in between too - if you actually need to and it's not just a habit or psychological prop.

Anyway, you can drink too much water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leah_Betts (Four hours later, she collapsed into a coma and was admitted to hospital, where she remained until her death on 16 November. The inquest concluded that her death resulted from water intoxication leading to hyponatremia, causing fatal swelling of the brain) and many others.
And as I said, don't miss out the salt, maybe a bit of sugar too.
 
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InTheEastMids

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31 Jan 2016
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1,382
I think battery tech is such that a battery capable of 4 hours of HVAC (even in a degraded mode) or low speed movement to the next station is entirely feasible and should be standard in all new stock and retrofitted where possible. I say 4 hours as evacuations invariably seem to take 3.
I think this is probably one of the better mitigations. However, my experience of Green Book style business cases is that whilst the strategic rationale writes itself quite easily, the economic element is more challenging. The basic problem is that putting resilience into systems in this way means you are investing quite a lot of money for systems you hope are rarely used, and often you are not sure to what extent it will be used. So having redundant and resilient infrastructure often doesn't appear to make economic sense so doesn't get funded, especially if it is competing for funding with schemes that have much more certain benefits.

There are apparently about 15k railway carriages in GB, and given all the design work and validation etc, I would think a national roll-out of batteries might be in the realms of £3-5 Billion. You could have 5-10 schemes the size of Ely Junction upgrades for that kind of money. Or a shed load of OHLE, track and structure/earthworks interventions that reduce the risk of stranding in the first place. Which of these is more worth doing? Ones that delivers operational benefits every day, or the one that helps perhaps 10% of the time? From a DfT/regulatory perspective, this probably means somebody has to seperate out this into a separate funding scheme (and justify that to ministers and the public).

The other thing people do is to make it make sense by stacking other benefits. In some future sunlit uplands where all trains have have batteries, obvious options are (i) more discontinuous electrification, (ii) perhaps relaxing the security of supply requirements on existing traction power, (iii) avoiding power supply upgrades as the trains use the battery to accelerate, smoothing out their power draw and (iv) At night the trains play vehicle to grid whilst they're parked. But all this adds other potentially uncertain benefits to the valuation, as well as increasing the scope, cost, risk and complexity of a programme

Final thought. Batteries are being seen as a silver bullet here because we have ended up in a situation where we're most concerned about stranded trains that are not safe in extreme weather without continuity of electrical supply to run the HVAC. But as noted, this extreme weather reveals shortcomings in the specification or maintenance of the HVAC, toilets, engines etc. Batteries can't help with this, and they might not help much with other weather-related issues like lineside fires.
 

Bletchleyite

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20 Oct 2014
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"Marston Vale mafia"
The other thing people do is to make it make sense by stacking other benefits. In some future sunlit uplands where all trains have have batteries, obvious options are (i) more discontinuous electrification, (ii) perhaps relaxing the security of supply requirements on existing traction power, (iii) avoiding power supply upgrades as the trains use the battery to accelerate, smoothing out their power draw and (iv) At night the trains play vehicle to grid whilst they're parked. But all this adds other potentially uncertain benefits to the valuation, as well as increasing the scope, cost, risk and complexity of a programme

Safety is also a benefit particularly in third rail areas. You can de-electrify depots as Merseyrail has, for example. And if temperatures do continue to increase there will sadly probably come a day when someone dies in a stranded train due to the heat.

Certainly Merseyrail thought it worthwhile. I'm not sure how long those shunt batteries can run HVAC though, having said that with stations so close together it probably would ease speed of evacuation significantly unless the unit itself was derailed.
 
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speedy1

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1 Sep 2023
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301
Location
Mossley
What should happen: huge infrastructure upgrades that we should have done 20 years ago

What will actually happen: more cancellations, cars and coaches picking up the slack. And more public information campaigns that it's your fault for wanting to travel

At least we spent £60bn on a faster, sorry, higher capacity, sorry, lower capacity train to Brum
 

Russel

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30 Jun 2022
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5,376
Location
Lichfield
This seems to be the plan - do not travel messages. It's not only the railway doing this, the media is pumping them out for other modes too.

With these heatwaves become more common, I do wonder what the long term plan will be to keep things moving, do no travel messages might work now, but they can't become the long term strategy.
 

Sonic1234

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2021
Messages
785
Location
Croydon
I do wonder what the long term plan will be to keep things moving, do no travel messages might work now, but they can't become the long term strategy.
Probably work from home guidance, maybe making it a right above a certain temperature for jobs that can (I'm aware it's not practical for all jobs).

We did have months on end of Do Not Travel messages in the lockdowns.
 

E27007

Member
Joined
25 May 2018
Messages
1,032
A search of Realtime trains reports zero passenger service activity of all members of the 225 fleet on the ECML today.
The "225" diagrams, four in total, 1Y01/1A05 allocated a 9-coach Azuma formation, 1A02 /10 a 5-coach Azuma formation.
Assumed to be a precaution to the heatwave today, the air-conditioning of Mk 1V coaching stock is prone to fail in challenging conditions.
Removal of the 225 locos from the line may be a factor too, should a 225 "sit-down" on the main line, assistance options are limited.
Let us hope replacing a 7-coach 225 set with 5-coach Azuma on 1A02 and 1a10 does not create passenger issues.

Is there news of a blanket hot-weather speed restriction on the ECML today?
 

30907

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Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
21,922
Location
Airedale
A search of Realtime trains reports zero passenger service activity of all members of the 225 fleet on the ECML today.
The "225" diagrams, four in total, 1Y01/1A05 allocated a 9-coach Azuma formation, 1A02 /10 a 5-coach Azuma formation.
Assumed to be a precaution to the heatwave today, the air-conditioning of Mk 1V coaching stock is prone to fail in challenging conditions.
Removal of the 225 locos from the line may be a factor too, should a 225 "sit-down" on the main line, assistance options are limited.
Quite.
Let us hope replacing a 7-coach 225 set with 5-coach Azuma on 1A02 and 1a10 does not create passenger issues.

Is there news of a blanket hot-weather speed restriction on the ECML today?
Not on NR site.
The LNE Do not travel advisory extends over the whole route, a little surprising but I imagine the vast majority on LNER travel into/out of the red area.
 

PartyOperator

Member
Joined
26 May 2019
Messages
190
What would those infrastructure upgrades be, how much would they cost, and where would the money come from?
HS2, so we can run slower trains with more slack in the timetable on existing lines and keep the fast, long distance trains running on infrastructure that can handle it. It should cost less, but it's the infrastructure we need (also for flooding etc.)
 

Russel

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30 Jun 2022
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5,376
Location
Lichfield
Probably work from home guidance, maybe making it a right above a certain temperature for jobs that can (I'm aware it's not practical for all jobs).

We did have months on end of Do Not Travel messages in the lockdowns.

That isn't a road we want to go down again.
 

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