Going slightly off topic, but I think a service running Yeovil Pen Mill - Castle Cary (reverse) - Langport - Taunton would pick up more business through linking Yeovil and Taunton. The A3088/A303/A358 is a commuter route which often overloads, a train service would be a good alternative. Would need speed improvements though to make it viable
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Re–Opening of main–line local services?
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brad465
Veteran Member
As nice as this is, it would require remodelling Castle Cary. The only way to do that from Taunton is to go beyond the station east to reverse beyond the crossovers, then back through the station onto the HoW line. It's easier going the other way, just reverse in Platform 2, but at a minimum a new crossover from the up to the down line west of Castle Cary is required. There may also be a need to link Platform 3 to the down main (and extend the platform length east) so that platform could be used for reversals as well, especially if a cross-platform interchange with a down service from London could be provided at certain times. On top of that, if this is in addition to existing Weymouth trains, at least some of the Castle Cary-Yeovil will need redoubling.
devon_belle
Member
I checked your idea expecting the train to take much longer but the journey time would probably be comparable even including the reversal (if the signalling allowed it in the platform)! Probably pushing it if/when Somerton or Langport reopened.
stevieinselby
Established Member
Case in point – with fewer than 30,000 entries and exits in a year, it's in the bottom 15% of stations for usage. It was a purely political decision to open it, it's been an appalling waste of money and never had any merit to it.cf. Reston.
Although I suspect you're right, usage figures alone do not tell the entire story. Those 30,000 entrances and exits may be far more economically significant to the area and to the people making them than 300,000 at an urban station that is "convenient" to all of those 300,000 but within a quarter of a mile from the next station in either direction on the same line. I doubt it's enough, though, but we should not reduce judgement to simply comparing either cost or usage or both.
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There are of course situations where the reasons for a bus service being unsustainable don't apply to the railway service as main roads and railway lines don't always parallel each other.
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HighlandStorm
Member
Reston fits similar point to the Borders Railway of providing access to an area that simply didn’t have access to the railway. It’s certainly not without merit to those 30k passengers.
What proportion of Scotland’s stations are in that bottom 15% by sheer weight of population of England vs Scotland ?
Also specifically on Reston, was it not supposed to be served by ScotRail services to Newcastle, but the 385 follow on order never happened because Abellio ScotRail franchise was terminated early.
On the issue of potential local services on main lines, for the Highland Main Line - Tomatin stands out, many services stop there for the loop and platforms are existent, given the number of trains that have to stop there it seems absurd it ever shut!
brad465
Veteran Member
Certainly comparable to a car, but significantly faster than a bus. The 54 bus does Taunton-Yeovil in 90-100 minutes (depending on where in each town you get on/off). Currently the train with a change at Castle Cary can be as fast as 46-55 minutes, however only a couple of combos a day do this, with nearer 90 minutes more common. If a direct train with associated infrastructure upgrades at Castle Cary is not feasible, just increasing the frequency between Taunton and Castle Cary (and onwards to Frome and Westbury), and between Castle Cary and Yeovil Pen Mill, will make the train a more reliable option.
stevieinselby
Established Member
Most towns and villages in the area have a decent bus service to Berwick-upon-Tweed and in some cases to Dunbar as well. For just the cost of building the new station, you could fund a significantly enhanced bus network across the catchment for the station for 50 years.
The next question is how many of those 30k passengers are "new"? The local catchment consists of about 100 people, so pretty much all of the people using the station are arriving there by car or maybe in a few cases by bus/Pingo – would they previously have driven to Berwick or Dunbar but are now choosing Reston because it's more convenient? If so, that's even less of a gain for ridership! What would have been the relative cost and benefits of instead providing a regular hourly service to Dunbar and Berwick, giving them a more frequent service that they could still readily access by car?
Financially, there's a huge difference between maintaining an existing service to an existing station, and paying out the capital cost of building a new station where one doesn't currently exist.
There are plenty of stations already on the network that are worthwhile serving now but would not be worthwhile building if they weren't already there.
ox_chap
Member
Just looked at Wikipedia for Reston, which gives passenger numbers. It is increasing by around 8,000 passengers per year. So if it carries on that way, in a decade, there could be very respectable carryings. Might be one of those cases where it is taking a bit longer to catch on…
Just an aside, that 54 service is the renumbered 264 bus replacement following the closure of the Yeovil - Taunton line and the Castle Cary - Taunton intermediate stations back in 1964. It was a joint Southern / Western National service. Is it the longest surviving Beeching era replacement service?
Interestingly the other replacement service (200) ran Yeovil - Stoke sub Hamdon - Martock - Thorney - Langport - Henlade - Taunton and lasted only 2-3 years. Curious that one survived and one didn't
I can see that extra stations on infrastructure which is otherwise not fully utilised which therefore could run extra services could be useful (in the right place).
Likewise, extra stations on lines where changes in population over time could be useful, although these come at the cost of slower services.
Although the other factor to consider, is the cost.
Typically lease costs are 1/3 of the cost to a TOC for running services and as a guide £200,000 per coach is a good guide for the lease costs.
As such where there's an end to end and back again journey time of 2 hours you'd be able to run:
+1tph with four coaches (2 units required) for £5 million
+2tph with four coaches (4 units required) for £10 minion
As those costs sit well within the cost of a new station it's likely that increasing train frequencies would be far more cost effective than reopenings.
Obviously, if you then created a cycle link alongside the route of the railway (between the two stations either side of the potential reopening) then you'd likely facilitate active travel options (especially if there was decent, like individual cycle lockers, secure cycle parking to facilitate the use of e-bikes) for at least some of those who might have used the station (Depending on the route, views, etc. it could also generate rail use for those looking to ride between stations).
Likewise, extra stations on lines where changes in population over time could be useful, although these come at the cost of slower services.
Although the other factor to consider, is the cost.
Typically lease costs are 1/3 of the cost to a TOC for running services and as a guide £200,000 per coach is a good guide for the lease costs.
As such where there's an end to end and back again journey time of 2 hours you'd be able to run:
+1tph with four coaches (2 units required) for £5 million
+2tph with four coaches (4 units required) for £10 minion
As those costs sit well within the cost of a new station it's likely that increasing train frequencies would be far more cost effective than reopenings.
Obviously, if you then created a cycle link alongside the route of the railway (between the two stations either side of the potential reopening) then you'd likely facilitate active travel options (especially if there was decent, like individual cycle lockers, secure cycle parking to facilitate the use of e-bikes) for at least some of those who might have used the station (Depending on the route, views, etc. it could also generate rail use for those looking to ride between stations).
Using the GWML as an example and leaving aside any capacity issues, increasing the frequency of trains between Bristol and Didcot via Bath to 4tph is very nice for the residents of and visitors to Bristol, Bath, Chippenham, Swindon and Didcot but does absolutely nothing for those of Corsham /Box, Royal Wooton Bassett, Wantage et al. Nor is going to help remove traffic congestion between those places and their natural “hub”. Over those distances and terrain, talk of cycle routes is pie in the sky.
brad465
Veteran Member
The West of England line in Devon has to be a good candidate for this; there are proposals for the Devon Metro to include an hourly Axminster service, but could go further if the will existed. I'd redouble the whole route from Pinhoe-Axminster (except the M5 bridge due to width constraints), and also reopen the Seaton branch. Then you could have 1tph Exeter-Axminster, 1tph Exeter-Seaton, with the 1tph Exeter-Waterloo running semi-fast through this area (Exeter Central, Cranbrook, Honiton, Axminster). The local services could be a continuation of trains from Barnstaple and/or Okehampton to provide direct through services and reduce platform occupancy time at the main Exeter stations.
Platform 2A: 124m but 104m for electric trains with the pantograph leading, see https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...tern (South) Sectional Appendix June 2026.pdf
5 car class 800 is 129.7m long, so no.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Another case locally would be a station to serve Rushden & Higham (2021 census population 40.000 approx., without nearby villages) on the Wymington diversion, served by alternate Corby trains.
But they're in Northamptonshire ...
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To borrow from the advert, the campaign obviously hasn’t been getting its Weetabix!
I'd be tempted to extend the Devon metro between Axminster and Lyme Regis, but that's off topic for this thread.
Palmerston
Member
I think it could make sense, once HS2 is partly open, and the southern WCML has some capacity, to reopen the connection from Leicester to either Rugby or Northampton. Run some/all of the MML express trains on that route to classic Euston and then provide a semi-fast service to St Pancras which would be able to stop at additional new stations such as the above.
ox_chap
Member
Thank you for this. Well, I guess the 800 would be on diesel, if coming off East-West rail. That's such a shame if we couldn't do something like this for the sake of just 5.7m. If, somehow, an extra 800 could be found, then it would be great to have a two-hourly extension of the Bristol-Oxford train, even if just to get something up and running to serve Winslow (which fits in with this thread of new stations), but also to get Oxford connected to the West Coast Mainline.
How many people live there? What is that actually going to do for the viability of the line
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
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- 19,630
Not sure that would be any quicker via the WCML, you may actually make it worse.
There'd probably be a better return on the much discussed Kingsbury HS2 connection taking the Sheffield & Derby trains to Euston, leaving the MML for Leicester & Nottingham.
One place where this is very much in the works is the South Wales Mainline, with the 6 new Burns stations planned between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction, to be served by an entirely new 2tph Cardiff-Bristol local service.
Hopefully there will be eventually be a decent service west towards Swansea too.
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Hopefully there will be eventually be a decent service west towards Swansea too.
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The new Oxford - Bristol service looks ideal for supporting stations reopenings at Corsham, Wooton Bassett and Wantage.
But is there the capacity to operate a service at a sufficiently attractive frequency to those stations without negatively impacting the end to end traffic and without creating significant performance risks?
The Burns stations are slightly different in being on the relief lines with, AIUI dedicated new services. But even if only served by a Severn Tunnel Junction-Cardiff shuttle given constraints elsewhere towards Bristol or Cheltenham could still create performance implications for freight and other passenger services at Cardiff and Newport stations.
Given the fact that the service has currently only been up and running for about 3 weeks, there is hardly an established end-to-end time or an established end-to-end flow to get negatively impacted. (OK - so it will slowly be becoming established….)
marsker
Member
A better local service on the ECML north of Newcastle is the subject of local campaigning and, indeed, I understand that a study done a couple of years ago indicated a positive BCR. Pegswood, Widdringfton, Acklington and Chathill have only been served by the twice daily "Chathill flyer" since the major cutbacks in the early 90s. Since then, there have been significant housing developments at Pegswood and Widdrington as well as in the area near Acklington. Chathill is, of course handy for a bus link to the resorts of Beadnell, Seahouses and Bamburgh and it has no service at all north towards Berwick.
To have any chance of obtaining paths, the service would have to be electrically worked. Tricia Williams, Northern's MD said at a stakeholder event that she didn't want to see any expansion in the number of classes operated by Northern, so this would mean using some of the spare 323s that Northern haven't yet taken on. It would also have the potential of releasing the DMUs used on the Newcastle for strengthening other services in the area.
To have any chance of obtaining paths, the service would have to be electrically worked. Tricia Williams, Northern's MD said at a stakeholder event that she didn't want to see any expansion in the number of classes operated by Northern, so this would mean using some of the spare 323s that Northern haven't yet taken on. It would also have the potential of releasing the DMUs used on the Newcastle for strengthening other services in the area.
Obviously the distances and terrain between stations will be a factor when it comes to cycle provision.
However, for somewhere which is 5 miles away if the station is only being served by 1tph then that's not always that helpful when a lot of people could cycle it in 30 minutes or less.
As according to:
5 Mile Cycle Times By Age And Ability - Cycling Level
5 mile cycling finish times by age for both men and women (good and average)
Someone who is a beginner (presumably without the assistance from an e-bike) and is aged 55 could do it in around 30 minutes (15kph/10mph), although the more they cycle the quicker this could get.
With the advantage of being able to leave when suits.
mike57
Established Member
As a regular cyclist the figures were imteresting, and realistic but I think missed a couple of important points:
Terrain, hilly terrain will slow you down, and make it harder work.
The one that everyone misses, wind. We live in an exposed area, and I regularly encounter head winds. Unlike hills, where you 'get back' what you put in head winds are more of a problem.
In simple terms wind resistance is proportional to the square of the wind velocity. So imagine a 10mph head wind, you ride into it for 1 mile at 10mph, the head wind is 20mph, so wind resistance is 4 times that on a still day, then return at 10mph where wind resistance is zero, basically wind restance losses have increased by a factor of two on the day with a 10mph wind against a still day for the return journey. (OK there are other factors at play as well)
There is also rain, snow and heat to consider, my own view is if I am riding to or from a station in all weathers, in normal clothes, with just a rainjacket or coat then 2 or so miles each way is about the limit if its a daily all weather ride, and even then there will be a few days where its not practical (e.g. ice and snow) so what is the fall back.
When you arrive at the station you then need secure cycle parking.
Cycling and rail travel can be a good way of expanding a rail catchment area, but currently there are a lot of barriers
Not to mention the matter of things you’re having to transport.
As for terrain - not all hills have the “gaining back” element. Nearly 40 years ago, having previously cycled everywhere, I moved to Bath. One bike ride into town was enough to convince me “never again”. The inbound journey was just wearing out brake blocks, while uphill was get off and push after about 200 yards.
It’s also strange how often when cycling you find that whichever way you’re going there’s always a headwind!