Should the London Underground have first class?

Cdd89 · 8 Jun 2026

I'm currently in Hong Kong on the East Rail Line, which is a (mostly) metro-type service. This line has platform validators to pay a surcharge to use a first class car. I've also seen this in quite a few other Asian cities, e.g. Shenzhen. The carriages do seem to be relatively well used, the main carriages are standing room only whereas the first class carriage has about 50% of seats occupied.

Is this an idea that should be brought to the London Underground? My gut reaction is that it feels un-British, but I do think there is a pretty strong case for it. My thoughts are as follows:

Offering First Class would encourage people who wouldn't otherwise use the LU to travel on the service - reducing road congestion and increasing fares. As a transport mode that is faster than a taxi, it offers a unique proposition to this market.
The combination of higher ridership and higher fares from first class riders could mean improvements to the service for everyone, including higher frequencies (offsetting the discomfort of losing a carriage).
In particular, wealthy older Londoners who currently benefit from free travel would nevertheless be tempted by the service, helping to recoup some of the £84m of revenue lost to this concession.
As a new and optional fares model, the First Class carriage could be priced according to demand by just showing a surcharge price or multiplier on the validator (my guess is it would be a flat price regardless of distance since Zone 1 is where the service is congested). If it had slightly more comfortable seats (in all the asian examples i've seen, the seats are forward facing, in contrast to the rest of the carriages), it would be worth a small premium even during uncrowded times. Conversely, during peak hours the premium could be extremely high as there would be some bankers etc who would happily pay it.

The main argument against is for lines where service frequencies couldn't be easily increased through investment, as I wouldn't find it acceptable to experience a long term worsening of service levels. The Northern Line, with the Camden Town issue, might be an example of an unsuitable line. There would also be a transitional issue as there would be an immediate quality drop for standard class riders at the point of introduction and people would need reassurance that this would be a temporary drop.

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bramling · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 said:
I'm currently in Hong Kong on the East Rail Line, which is a (mostly) metro-type service. This line has platform validators to pay a surcharge to use a first class car. I've also seen this in quite a few other Asian cities, e.g. Shenzhen. The carriages do seem to be relatively well used, the main carriages are standing room only whereas the first class carriage has about 50% of seats occupied.

Is this an idea that should be brought to the London Underground? My gut reaction is that it feels un-British, but I do think there is a pretty strong case for it. My thoughts are as follows:

Offering First Class would encourage people who wouldn't otherwise use the LU to travel on the service - reducing road congestion and increasing fares. As a transport mode that is faster than a taxi, it offers a unique proposition to this market.

The combination of higher ridership and higher fares from first class riders could mean improvements to the service for everyone, including higher frequencies (offsetting the discomfort of losing a carriage).

In particular, wealthy older Londoners who currently benefit from free travel would nevertheless be tempted by the service, helping to recoup some of the £84m of revenue lost to this concession.

As a new and optional fares model, the First Class carriage could be priced according to demand by just showing a surcharge price or multiplier on the validator (my guess is it would be a flat price regardless of distance since Zone 1 is where the service is congested). If it had slightly more comfortable seats (in all the asian examples i've seen, the seats are forward facing, in contrast to the rest of the carriages), it would be worth a small premium even during uncrowded times. Conversely, during peak hours the premium could be extremely high as there would be some bankers etc who would happily pay it.

The main argument against is for lines where service frequencies couldn't be easily increased through investment, as I wouldn't find it acceptable to experience a long term worsening of service levels. The Northern Line, with the Camden Town issue, might be an example of an unsuitable line. There would also be a transitional issue as there would be an immediate quality drop for standard class riders at the point of introduction and people would need reassurance that this would be a temporary drop.

I don’t think it would be viable when many LU trains run at or near full capacity during busy times. The effective loss of capacity would be unworkable. It would also extent dwell times which would negatively impact the throughput of trains. There’s also the issue of how it would be enforced, especially given on-train revenue protection on LU is very rare.

SynthD · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 said:
The carriages do seem to be relatively well used, the main carriages are standing room only whereas the first class carriage has about 50% of seats occupied.

Passengers have the option of paying a premium to enjoy the East Rail Line's First Class Service. The First Class Premium is equivalent to the normal Standard Class Fare for the same East Rail Line journey.

At the moment you saw it, it wasn’t paying its way. For that reason I’d be suggesting Hong Kong removes theirs, not that anywhere copies them.

Cdd89 · 8 Jun 2026

SynthD said:
At the moment you saw it, it wasn’t paying its way. For that reason I’d be suggesting Hong Kong removes theirs, not that anywhere copies them.

I'm not sure that's evidence that it's not paying its way – that math would only be the case if passengers were being displaced (i.e. without first class, X more people would have ridden the service), but everyone who wanted to travel did fit into the rest of the train (not crush-loaded)?

Falcon1200 · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 said:
The main argument against is for lines where service frequencies couldn't be easily increased through investment,

Apart from any other argument against, it could not possibly ever be enforced!

Dstock7080 · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 said:
Is this an idea that should be brought to the London Underground? My gut reaction is that it feels un-British,

“Brought back to . . . “ should be the question.

London and Paris did have First Class available on their systems in the past.
Paris until 1981:

1st Class on the Paris Metro

I just heard a radio programme (not at all transport-related) that trains on the Paris Metro (or at least certain lines thereof) included a section classified as first class, until as recently as 1981. (Googling brings up the legislation approved in that year that abolished this, so this is...

www.railforums.co.uk

London, on the Metropolitan and sub-surface Lines until 1939.

Chiltern 165 · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 said:
I'm currently in Hong Kong on the East Rail Line, which is a (mostly) metro-type service. This line has platform validators to pay a surcharge to use a first class car. I've also seen this in quite a few other Asian cities, e.g. Shenzhen. The carriages do seem to be relatively well used, the main carriages are standing room only whereas the first class carriage has about 50% of seats occupied.

Is this an idea that should be brought to the London Underground? My gut reaction is that it feels un-British, but I do think there is a pretty strong case for it. My thoughts are as follows:

Offering First Class would encourage people who wouldn't otherwise use the LU to travel on the service - reducing road congestion and increasing fares. As a transport mode that is faster than a taxi, it offers a unique proposition to this market.

The combination of higher ridership and higher fares from first class riders could mean improvements to the service for everyone, including higher frequencies (offsetting the discomfort of losing a carriage).

In particular, wealthy older Londoners who currently benefit from free travel would nevertheless be tempted by the service, helping to recoup some of the £84m of revenue lost to this concession.

As a new and optional fares model, the First Class carriage could be priced according to demand by just showing a surcharge price or multiplier on the validator (my guess is it would be a flat price regardless of distance since Zone 1 is where the service is congested). If it had slightly more comfortable seats (in all the asian examples i've seen, the seats are forward facing, in contrast to the rest of the carriages), it would be worth a small premium even during uncrowded times. Conversely, during peak hours the premium could be extremely high as there would be some bankers etc who would happily pay it.

The main argument against is for lines where service frequencies couldn't be easily increased through investment, as I wouldn't find it acceptable to experience a long term worsening of service levels. The Northern Line, with the Camden Town issue, might be an example of an unsuitable line. There would also be a transitional issue as there would be an immediate quality drop for standard class riders at the point of introduction and people would need reassurance that this would be a temporary drop.

Something like this could work for the Elizabeth Line and potentially some London Overground lines, especially if they declassify it during peak-time services.

The issue with doing it on the Underground is enforcement and what exactly you would do with the trains to make it worth the supplement. “Upgrading” or reposition the seats would be very hard to do, as the area underneath the seats are used for holding equipment.

(Image taken from TfL)

A S Leib · 8 Jun 2026

When operators like Southeastern, where the case for first class is much stronger (less concern about dwelling times, longer routes, lower frequencies), have abolished it, its introduction on the Underground doesn't seem right (I know Chiltern is reintroducing a non-standard class; they're an outlier).

As a side note, I was entertained to see an option for a first class tram ticket in Zürich, but I'm guessing that covers first class on regional trains in local zones as I didn't see different classes on trams.

Stratford581 · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 · 8 Jun 2026

Falcon1200 said:
Apart from any other argument against, it could not possibly ever be enforced!

In Hong Kong on the East Line, notably only one door opens for the First Class carriage (even though the carriage has multiple doors), and it's a consistent door signed on the platform gates. I assume this is for enforcement reasons, and I also assume the doors between the carriages can be locked for inspections (they have a button which can presumably be disabled).

There are signs saying fare adjustment is not allowed on the train, and the penalty is HK$1000 / £96, which is about 45× the total first class fare for a long journey.

Sun Chariot · 8 Jun 2026

Hello @Cdd89 No first class.

I commuted for 18 years on London's Underground network, 1994 to 2012.

With the exception of the outer reaches of the Metropolitan Line and, arguably, the Central Line east of the Hainault loop, London's Underground proposition is of a mass-transit, high-frequency, high-capacity transport and with (generally) short travel-duration on any one particular train (although, overall, the "point to point" journey might use multiple TfL lines).

In London's travel, social habits & expectations have altered since "class divide" of 19th and early 20th century patrons.

Today, we need efficiency and productivity, not indulgence.

Harpo · 8 Jun 2026

Any sort of on-train segregation will affect the flow of people through underground stations and bring significant safety issues.

GRALISTAIR · 8 Jun 2026

One word answer to the OP question - NO.

When you have standard train lengths etc and sometimes packed like sardines and inevitably some people would sit in 1st class seats (reserved yes/no) it would be totally unworkable.

Pegpilot · 8 Jun 2026

I'm with Harpo - anything that segments passenger load burns capacity. I used to commute from Southfields into town when you could still smoke on the tube and train consist included two smoking vehicles, iirc. I hate smoking but found I could get a seat in the smokers whereas the non-smokers where rammed full. For the sake of a seat I was happy with 20 minutes of passive smoking.

Chiltern 165 · 8 Jun 2026

Pegpilot said:
I'm with Harpo - anything that segments passenger load burns capacity. I used to commute from Southfields into town when you could still smoke on the tube and train consist included two smoking vehicles, iirc. I hate smoking but found I could get a seat in the smokers whereas the non-smokers where rammed full. For the sake of a seat I was happy with 20 minutes of passive smoking.

This partially supports the point of the original poster:

I’m sure many people may purchase first class to be less crowded.

A first class could work for the metropolitan line as-well: I’m sure many people would be willing to pay a surcharge so they can have a more comfortable and quieter journey, especially at the more far out stations (like Amersham or Chesham)

A S Leib · 8 Jun 2026

Chiltern 165 said:
A first class could work for the metropolitan line as-well: I’m sure many people would be willing to pay a surcharge so they can have a more comfortable and quieter journey, especially at the more far out stations (like Amersham or Chesham)

How busy was first class on Aylesbury services before being scrapped a quarter of a century ago? Including all short-distance Chiltern services, first class made up ~3% of peak passengers, with occupancy rates below half full.

Chiltern carries 11,000 passengers every rush hour on short-distance commuter trains. Only 320 travel first class, with 380 premium seats typically empty.

35B · 8 Jun 2026

Chiltern 165 said:
This partially supports the point of the original poster:

I’m sure many people may purchase first class to be less crowded.

A first class could work for the metropolitan line as-well: I’m sure many people would be willing to pay a surcharge so they can have a more comfortable and quieter journey, especially at the more far out stations (like Amersham or Chesham)

I know the Wimbledon branch, and demand has changed a LOT in the last 40 years, along with the area. When I use it, I travel from Wimbledon Park rather than Southfields in the hope of a seat - get over the river, and trains are seriously busy. Reduce capacity, and the ability to carry existing demand is seriously compromised.

The Underground is mass transit, and there's simply not the capacity to provide for fripperies like that.

Sun Chariot · 8 Jun 2026

A S Leib said:
How busy was first class on Aylesbury services before being scrapped a quarter of a century ago? Including all short-distance Chiltern services, first class made up ~3% of peak passengers, with occupancy rates below half full.

+1. This corrobates my post 11 stance.

Kite159 · 8 Jun 2026

It will be completely unenforceable, and how would the system know you had travelled "1st class" between say Euston & Waterloo?

Pegpilot · 8 Jun 2026

Ha ! I see what you did there, Chiltern and I take your point. But when I was doing the Southfields commute, tube demand increased 60% in 6 years in the 80s and I thought it was imply bonkers that two cars in every train were running half empty when we were all smelling each others' armpits in the other four. And 35B has revealed my other trick - getting a WB train to Wimbledon Park to get a seat on an eastbound service when things were stupidly busy.

Warrior2852 · 8 Jun 2026

A S Leib said:
As a side note, I was entertained to see an option for a first class tram ticket in Zürich, but I'm guessing that covers first class on regional trains in local zones as I didn't see different classes on trams.

It would be for the train yes - Zurich doesn't sell tickets by mode (train, tram, boat etc) but instead by zone, and you can use any transport within the zone to complete your journey, so the ticket would be allowing you to use first class on the modes that do have it. If you're not planning to use a mode that has first class, then simply don't buy it.

eastrail · 8 Jun 2026

SynthD said:
At the moment you saw it, it wasn’t paying its way. For that reason I’d be suggesting Hong Kong removes theirs, not that anywhere copies them.

Agreed with this. One first class carriage out of a 12 car train made sense, but now the trains are shorter despite an extension to the line so it is harder to justify.

GRALISTAIR · 8 Jun 2026

Kite159 said:
It will be completely unenforceable, and how would the system know you had travelled "1st class" between say Euston & Waterloo?

Exactly!

eastrail · 8 Jun 2026

Kite159 said:
It will be completely unenforceable, and how would the system know you had travelled "1st class" between say Euston & Waterloo?

Hypothetically, it would work similar to the pink validators which tell the system you avoided Zone 1. So there could be a new validator that tells the system you travelled first class and would be subject to a higher fare.

At least that is how it is differentiated in Hong Kong, with regular revenue inspections on trains

Warrior2852 · 8 Jun 2026

eastrail said:
Hypothetically, it would work similar to the pink validators which tell the system you avoided Zone 1. So there could be a new validator that tells the system you travelled first class and would be subject to a higher fare.

At least that is how it is differentiated in Hong Kong, with regular revenue inspections on trains

There would be nothing to stop someone simply touching the standard validator and getting on the first class coach though, that's the issue - it simply doesn't work without revenue inspections on the majority of trains, which is unworkable for TFL.

Benjwri · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 said:
The combination of higher ridership and higher fares from first class riders could mean improvements to the service for everyone, including higher frequencies (offsetting the discomfort of losing a carriage).

Marginally higher ridership in the off peak maybe, significant capacity and therefore ridership loss in the peak when fares are higher.

And you’re suggesting that first class fares could pay for not just new trains (£16 million per train for 24TS) but also the signalling upgrade most lines would need to handle more peak services? That’s £640 million on the Piccadilly Line alone, so you’re saying first class would generate the close to £1 billion needed to increase services? (For clarity using Piccadilly Line here, £640 for infrastructure and then the 18 trains to increase the service at £290 total)

PartyOperator · 8 Jun 2026

No! But a third class carriage on national rail trains might be popular.

Technologist · 8 Jun 2026

I suspect that the method of enforcing this would be by means of a direct in coach payment via oyster or contactless card. The doors of the first class car would not open unless requested by someone inside or by a person on the outside paying to open the doors. This should limit occurrences of large groups getting on in error. Obviously people could tail gate the first person to open the doors but the point would be that there would be lots of reminders both visual and auditory that would make it clear that to use this carriage there was an additional charge. Nobody would be getting on the train thinking they didn't need to pay.

Once in the carriage there would be a means to pay, an HD CCTV system would be installed which would verify that every person has paid and would issue audio warnings to people who haven't tabbed in. Facial recognition could be used to identify and prosecute people who repeatedly violate the system, it could also flag people who are wearing face coverings and similar so they can be pulled up at the station exit.

The larger issues are ones of revenue and equity. From a revenue stand point a coach of people in comfortable seats are going to need to pay about 4-5 times more than they currently do to have a better revenue per m2 than a packed underground trail with 150+ people per carriage. So the argument that will be made is that you will get new people onto the system who previously hadn't travelled at rush hour and that plenty of the people who previously would have been in the first class carriage would still ride in the more cramped remainder of the train.

I don't think that the argument that we are going to make the ride much worse for 1200 people so that an additional 40 people can ride in comfort is one that the London mayor can make to voters. It would be a relatively easy one for the opposition to run with the promise of ending it and likely to have a political impact way larger than the relatively small revenue impact it would have.

Bald Rick · 8 Jun 2026

Cdd89 said:
Offering First Class would encourage people who wouldn't otherwise use the LU to travel on the service - reducing road congestion and increasing fares. As a transport mode that is faster than a taxi, it offers a unique proposition to this market.

I think this statement is hopeful, at best. People who use taxis rather than the tube are not making that choice due to the absence of first class on the tube.

Cach17 · 8 Jun 2026

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Good lord, absolutely not.

Should the London Underground have first class?

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