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I am appealing on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations.
I was travelled from Stockport on a CrossCountry service direct to Wolverhampton. I was issued with the notice once I had alighted at Wolverhampton having travelled on a CrossCountry service, a train company that does not operate a Penalty Fare Scheme.
Additionally, the notice is issued by WM Trains from Tamworth. I did not travel on any train that called at, board at, or alight at Tamworth at any stage. Nor did I travel on any service operated by WM Trains.
Given this, the Penalty Fare notice is invalid should be cancelled."
Given this, I believe the Penalty Fare is invalid and request that the circumstances surrounding the issue of the Penalty Fare Notice be reviewed and that the notice be cancelled."
Okay thank you so much! one last thing, do I need to send some sort of evidence? Would sending what ticket I have complicate matters or is it necessary.
Okay thank you so much! one last thing, do I need to send some sort of evidence? Would sending what ticket I have complicate matters or is it necessary.
I don't think it would be required, because (having skimmed this thread) the main point of your appeal is that Cross Country don't operate a penalty fares scheme. That said, I can't see any harm in including the ticket that you had.
This is my concern that by offering the ticket, the appeals body way wrongly say the ticket wasn't valid and get side tracked if they do not understand that an outward portion of an off peak return is valid on day 2 of the journey has not been completed.
This is my concern that by offering the ticket, the appeals body way wrongly say the ticket wasn't valid and get side tracked if they do not understand that an outward portion of an off peak return is valid on day 2 of the journey has not been completed.
This is my concern that by offering the ticket, the appeals body way wrongly say the ticket wasn't valid and get side tracked if they do not understand that an outward portion of an off peak return is valid on day 2 of the journey has not been completed.
They're going to want to see the ticket. It's absurd to suggest they can properly judge a case like.this without seeing it. It's the cornerstone of the OP's appeal.
They're going to want to see the ticket. It's absurd to suggest they can properly judge a case like.this without seeing it. It's the cornerstone of the OP's appeal.
Maybe emphasise why the ticket is being included - something like 'I enclose a copy of my ticket - you will see that it was valid from A to B*, which is not a route that goes through Tamworth'.
*Sorry - I haven't read back through the thread to check the locations
They're going to want to see the ticket. It's absurd to suggest they can properly judge a case like.this without seeing it. It's the cornerstone of the OP's appeal.
Are there any direct trains from Tamworth to Wolverhampton? If not then the appeals body doesn't need to believe anything the OP says: the PF cannot possibly be valid.
I would lead with this argument and then follow with the "XC don't run a PF scheme" without attaching my ticket.
Take it one step at a time. First focus on getting the penalty cancelled. The ticket isn't relevant.
If they uphold your appeal and then still try to argue you owe them a fare, that's when the ticket and permission you received come into it, though you might wait for the letter before action as you already told them you had permission (and it's not your fault if the person who issued the invalid ticket also didn't pass on that information).
Update- it got rejected, this doesn't seem fair at all, looks like its okay if staff give invalid tickets. I added what you guys suggested but didn't add my ticket. Any suggestions on what to do now? Guess I will have to appeal again.
These people are useless arseholes. The whole purpose of an appeal is to ****ing well appeal something which is unlawful or incorrect. How they can say "oh you should have said at the time" with a straight face as the APPEALS PANEL is mindboggling.
Please show us what you sent them - you didn't share a draft with us so we were unable to direct what you said.
Submit the ticket as proof you travelled on XC, as I suggested.
I am appealing on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations.
I traveled on the 11:33 am CrossCountry service from Stockport directly to Wolverhampton, arriving at 12:38 pm. I received the Penalty Fare notice after I had alighted at Wolverhampton (not while on the train, as stated in the notice), while traveling on a CrossCountry service, a company that does not operate a Penalty Fare Scheme.
Additionally, the notice is issued by WM Trains from Tamworth. I did not travel on any train that called at, board at, or alight at Tamworth at any stage. Nor did I travel on any service operated by WM Trains. There are no direct trains from Tamworth to Wolverhampton for this even to be possible.
Given this, the Penalty Fare notice is invalid should be cancelled.
What annoying too is the only part they did address is the wrong station.
Okay. Appeal again, state very clearly that you travelled on an XC service, and submit the ticket as proof of that journey.
If they reject you a second time the third appeal stage is more independent and sometimes handled by a person with a prefrontal cortex. As you can see, most of the debate so far is about what type of deficient logic the appeals assessor at stages one and two will suffer from, so it can be a frustrating game of idiot roulette. Unfortunately you've ended up with Should Have Said So At The Time, a person we have come across before. This is like the final boss of appeals panel refuseniks, but you live to fight another day.
Please do share the draft for the second appeal when you've written it.
This is not the first time I have seen a letter from penalty services saying that the issue of the wrong station should have been raised with the inspector at the time and somehow that is there for a basis for the penalty fare standing.
(See also the heroic intervention of Transport Focus in coming to the defence of the train company, doubling down on the gross overcharge. Pooh and fiddlesticks to the customer. Great stuff all round everyone!)
You didn't stress the key point that it is not possible for ANY penalty fare issued from Tamworth at Wolverhampton EVER to comply with the regulations as there are no direct services! Your particular journey or ticket isn't even relevant to this appeal!
This is an impossible penalty that the system should not have allowed the inspector to issue. The back office also ought to have picked up the impossibility and cancelled it.
As has been said, this may well have to go to all three levels of appeal to get the right result - and even then, we can't guarantee that it will work. But a couple of suggestions to maximise the chances of success at both rounds 2 and 3:
- don't assume that the appeal panel will have access to what was submitted to the previous appeal: for each round, explain everything from first principles as if they won't have seen anything else
- although I think the OP is unhappy about this, and so are we, it's important not to let that anger get in the way of the argument. So any appeal needs to be written as calmly and dispassionately as possible.
As I've indicated many times before, I don't believe that the appeals system is compliant with the regulations in numerous respects and as such no PF they issue should be enforceable.
The highlighted statement is patently false and demonstrates procedural non-compliance. They clearly aren't aware of 16(4) which means that the statement by the passenger that they boarded at Stockport and travelled on a XC train must be accepted as true unless the train company provides contrary evidence (in response to the appeal on this point). The burden of proof - that the passenger boarded a direct service from Tamworth to Wolverhampton - lies with the train company, not the passenger here. As there were no such services at the time in question, that's insurmountable so a compliant appeals system would have no option but to uphold the appeal on that point alone.
So is it against regulations for them to charge for journeys thats not a direct service ?
Also should I mention about my journey as technically my journey is valid.
I just want to have the best chances of this getting appealed. Thank you all for the help so far
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I am appealing on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations. My appeal rests on four independent grounds, any one of which is sufficient to invalidate the notice.
--- GROUND 1: NO JURISDICTION ; I DID NOT TRAVEL ON A WM TRAINS SERVICE ---
On the date in question, I travelled on the 11:33 CrossCountry service from Stockport to Wolverhampton, arriving at 12:38, receiving the Penalty Fare notice after I had alighted at Wolverhampton. CrossCountry is an entirely separate train operating company and does not participate in the Penalty Fares Scheme.
Under the Penalty Fares Rules, a penalty fare may only be issued to a person travelling on, boarding, or alighting from a service operated by an authorised operator. West Midlands Trains is not an authorised operator in respect of CrossCountry services. Accordingly, WM Trains had no legal authority or jurisdiction to issue this notice. The notice is therefore invalid on its face, irrespective of the validity of my ticket.
--- GROUND 2: FALSE ORIGIN STATION ENTERED AGAINST MY STATED ACCOUNT ---
The Penalty Fare Notice records my journey as originating from Tamworth. This is factually incorrect. I clearly informed the inspector at the time that I had boarded at Stockport. The inspector disregarded my account and recorded a station I had not visited, did not board at, and did not travel through. I did not travel to or from Tamworth at any point during my journey.
The Penalty Fares Rules 2018 require that a penalty fare notice accurately records the relevant journey details. A notice containing false information, particularly information entered contrary to the passenger's stated account does not comply with the regulatory requirements and is therefore invalid, irrespective of the validity of my ticket.
--- GROUND 3: MY TICKET WAS VALID FOR THIS JOURNEY ---
I held, and presented to the inspector, a valid Leeds to Wolverhampton Off-Peak Return ticket. Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel and the applicable SVR Off-Peak ticket conditions, a passenger who is unable to complete their journey on the first day of travel is permitted to continue that journey on the following day. I exercised this right in good faith, continuing from Stockport to Wolverhampton on the second day after being unable to complete my journey on the first day.
My ticket was valid. I showed it to the inspector. The inspector nonetheless proceeded to issue a penalty fare, despite having no legitimate basis to do so. Issuing a penalty fare to a passenger in possession of a valid, displayed ticket is a serious procedural failing and contrary to the purpose and operation of the Penalty Fares Scheme.
--- GROUND 4: WM TRAINS DOES NOT OPERATE SERVICES ON THIS ROUTE ---
The notice purports to have been issued in connection with a WM Trains journey from Tamworth. West Midlands Trains does not operate direct services between Tamworth and Wolverhampton relevant to my journey, and it does not serve the Stockport–Wolverhampton route in any form. My Leeds–Wolverhampton via Manchester ticket, does not ever route via Tamworth. Additionally, as there is no direct service from Tamworth and Wolverhampton, the notice cannot be reconciled with any real or valid WM Trains journey, further demonstrating that it was not issued in accordance with the Penalty Fares Rules.
In support of this appeal, I enclose the following:
1. A copy of my valid Leeds to Wolverhampton Off-Peak Return ticket.
2. Records confirming the purchase of this ticket.
3. A copy of the Penalty Fare Notice.
For the reasons set out above, the Penalty Fare Notice was not issued lawfully or in accordance with the Penalty Fares Rules. I was travelling on a CrossCountry service over which WM Trains has no jurisdiction, the notice records a false origin station entered against my stated account, my ticket was valid and duly presented, and the notice cannot be reconciled with any genuine WM Trains journey. I respectfully submit that the Penalty Fare Notice is invalid and must be cancelled in full.
Is there anything i should change?
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I've added a draft above, if someone can look over it that would be great. Sorry to keep adding to this thread, it just incase it gets rejected again time will be short so I want to appeal asap.
How exactly should I change my approach? is there any regulations I can directly reference.
So is it against regulations for them to charge for journeys thats not a direct service ?
Also should I mention about my journey as technically my journey is valid.
I just want to have the best chances of this getting appealed. Thank you all for the help so far
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I am appealing on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations. My appeal rests on four independent grounds, any one of which is sufficient to invalidate the notice.
--- GROUND 1: NO JURISDICTION ; I DID NOT TRAVEL ON A WM TRAINS SERVICE ---
On the date in question, I travelled on the 11:33 CrossCountry service from Stockport to Wolverhampton, arriving at 12:38, receiving the Penalty Fare notice after I had alighted at Wolverhampton. CrossCountry is an entirely separate train operating company and does not participate in the Penalty Fares Scheme.
Under the Penalty Fares Rules, a penalty fare may only be issued to a person travelling on, boarding, or alighting from a service operated by an authorised operator. West Midlands Trains is not an authorised operator in respect of CrossCountry services. Accordingly, WM Trains had no legal authority or jurisdiction to issue this notice. The notice is therefore invalid on its face, irrespective of the validity of my ticket.
--- GROUND 2: FALSE ORIGIN STATION ENTERED AGAINST MY STATED ACCOUNT ---
The Penalty Fare Notice records my journey as originating from Tamworth. This is factually incorrect. I clearly informed the inspector at the time that I had boarded at Stockport. The inspector disregarded my account and recorded a station I had not visited, did not board at, and did not travel through. I did not travel to or from Tamworth at any point during my journey.
The Penalty Fares Rules 2018 require that a penalty fare notice accurately records the relevant journey details. A notice containing false information, particularly information entered contrary to the passenger's stated account does not comply with the regulatory requirements and is therefore invalid, irrespective of the validity of my ticket.
--- GROUND 3: MY TICKET WAS VALID FOR THIS JOURNEY ---
I held, and presented to the inspector, a valid Leeds to Wolverhampton Off-Peak Return ticket. Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel and the applicable SVR Off-Peak ticket conditions, a passenger who is unable to complete their journey on the first day of travel is permitted to continue that journey on the following day. I exercised this right in good faith, continuing from Stockport to Wolverhampton on the second day after being unable to complete my journey on the first day.
My ticket was valid. I showed it to the inspector. The inspector nonetheless proceeded to issue a penalty fare, despite having no legitimate basis to do so. Issuing a penalty fare to a passenger in possession of a valid, displayed ticket is a serious procedural failing and contrary to the purpose and operation of the Penalty Fares Scheme.
--- GROUND 4: WM TRAINS DOES NOT OPERATE SERVICES ON THIS ROUTE ---
The notice purports to have been issued in connection with a WM Trains journey from Tamworth. West Midlands Trains does not operate direct services between Tamworth and Wolverhampton relevant to my journey, and it does not serve the Stockport–Wolverhampton route in any form. My Leeds–Wolverhampton via Manchester ticket, does not ever route via Tamworth. Additionally, as there is no direct service from Tamworth and Wolverhampton, the notice cannot be reconciled with any real or valid WM Trains journey, further demonstrating that it was not issued in accordance with the Penalty Fares Rules.
In support of this appeal, I enclose the following:
1. A copy of my valid Leeds to Wolverhampton Off-Peak Return ticket.
2. Records confirming the purchase of this ticket.
3. A copy of the Penalty Fare Notice.
For the reasons set out above, the Penalty Fare Notice was not issued lawfully or in accordance with the Penalty Fares Rules. I was travelling on a CrossCountry service over which WM Trains has no jurisdiction, the notice records a false origin station entered against my stated account, my ticket was valid and duly presented, and the notice cannot be reconciled with any genuine WM Trains journey. I respectfully submit that the Penalty Fare Notice is invalid and must be cancelled in full.
Is there anything i should change?
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I've added a draft above, if someone can look over it that would be great. Sorry to keep adding to this thread, it just incase it gets rejected again time will be short so I want to appeal asap.
Re Ground 3: Was it physically impossible for you to complete the journey on day 1, i.e. when you set out on your journey, there were no trains which ran after midnight with which you could complete your journey. (And if so, is there an obligation to catch an early train the next morning?) Or did you choose to break your journey, with the consequence that when you restarted your journey, there were no trains to complete your journey?
I don't know the rules regarding this, but the way your letter is written suggests that you opted to break your journey, knowing that you would have to complete your journey the following day, and I don't knowe if that is allowable within the rules.
No, i'd be catching the last trains if I tried, but I would be arriving late. I'll remove ground 3, thank you.
Should I include the ticket I travelled with as the outwards portion is for the day before the fare was issued, and if i do should I explain it ?
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update it got rejected again, this time its my fault for signing on the penalty fare. Guess I'll have to appeal third time.
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Was it a mistake for including the ticket? Idk why they are ignoring a fact that i did not ride on their trains. Anyways again any help for the final appeal would be good.
No, i'd be catching the last trains if I tried, but I would be arriving late. I'll remove ground 3, thank you.
Should I include the ticket I travelled with as the outwards portion is for the day before the fare was issued, and if i do should I explain it ?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
update it got rejected again, this time its my fault for signing on the penalty fare. Guess I'll have to appeal third time.
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Was it a mistake for including the ticket? Idk why they are ignoring a fact that i did not ride on their trains. Anyways again any help for the final appeal would be good.
Their argument seems to be that you did not have a valid ticket to travel on the second day, and that you travelled on a WMT train from Tamworth to Wolverhampton. They seem to have ignored the fact that you travelled on an operator's trains which do not adopt Penalty Fares, and that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations.
I think you need to appeal this on these four grounds. You need to set out your case again as though the reader has not seen any previous correspondence, and reference it / quote the relevant regulations - anything to make the reader's job easier.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
