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GTR Summer Holiday Cancellations

whoosh

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It would be messy on GN.

Pre last December when there were the Letchworth-King’s Cross fast peak services it would have been quite easy to remove these. Now the peak stopping service originates from Letchworth it leaves a fundamentally different service on Mondays to Thursdays. Meanwhile on the Peterborough route the Saturday extras are timed to suit days out in London rather than work travel, as are 12-car lengthenings on the Fen Line.

This whole situation is a mess. If anything it would be better to run a full morning peak on Friday and trim out some evening peak services, as it seems to be more the evening peak which has reduced demand compared to other days.
What you say makes sense. As I said, the railway has seen changes in the past like when the normal workweek shifted from 6 days to 5. But actually, before it changed to a shorter day on a Saturday (with a lunchtime peak for travel home), it was a full day on Saturdays at one time. So what you are saying is more of the change from a full Saturday to half day Saturday, is now taking place on Fridays - not quite the same, but a social shift in working times.
I did think about what they would do with the peak extras from Peterborough, as there are some peak extras on Saturdays for the leisure peak, so the treatment of these (weekday or Saturday timings - or perhaps something more tailor made for just a Friday?!) will be interesting.
 
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London Trains

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Earlier 'start up' to match weekdays was mentioned (which I forgot to mention!). I expect a weekday finish time would be matched on a route with such an early finish on a Saturday.

The main point is there will be less peak hour extras on a Friday, with the base service being similar to a Saturday. Schools traffic was mentioned as needing to be catered for, so there will be places where they cant just 'copy and paste' a Saturday timetable in on a Friday.
This does just seem like they're making life more difficult for themselves, surely just using the standard weekday timetable and removing a few peak extras if really necessary would suffice - the amount of changes from the Saturday timetable to create a suitable timetable for Fridays will be ridiculous (earlier start, school traffic, commuter traffic that might be lower in volume than the rest of the week but is still massive), and if there are significant differences in the timetable to the rest of the week, it will just cause confusion and discourage people from using the railway.

If the country moved to a 4 day working week, then this would make a lot of sense, but that's an entirely different discussion and isn't happening.
 

MikeWM

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Going forward, from the first Monday before Christmas Eve there will be a Saturday service on weekdays, returning to normal weekday service on the first Monday after New Years Day. This is due to there being significantly less commuting during the Christmas period.

That'll be December 21st this year. I appreciate there may be less on the 23rd and 24th, but I can't see many people already being on holiday on the 21st. This feels like a rapidly-expanding thin end of the wedge.

From May 2027, on GTR it is planned for Fridays to have a timetable based on a Saturday timetable.

Isn't nationalisation grand?

Seriously though, didn't GTR quite recently reverse their timetables (at least on the GN side) that treated Fridays, and earlier Mondays, differently? I clearly remember some evening KGX-KLN trains split at CBG on Tuesdays-Thursdays but were 8 throughout on others. Presumably this was reversed for a reason, so why go backwards again?

I wonder what the point is of having a different timetable though. They can't replicate Saturday exactly, unless they want the absurd position of running 1tph from KLN during the rush hour and then going to 2tph between 0900 and 1100, for one example...

I'll bet they still charge weekday peak prices while providing a Saturday service, too.
 

bramling

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What you say makes sense. As I said, the railway has seen changes in the past like when the normal workweek shifted from 6 days to 5. But actually, before it changed to a shorter day on a Saturday (with a lunchtime peak for travel home), it was a full day on Saturdays at one time. So what you are saying is more of the change from a full Saturday to half day Saturday, is now taking place on Fridays - not quite the same, but a social shift in working times.
I did think about what they would do with the peak extras from Peterborough, as there are some peak extras on Saturdays for the leisure peak, so the treatment of these (weekday or Saturday timings - or perhaps something more tailor made for just a Friday?!) will be interesting.

The other issue with all this is to what extent governments wish to encourage this 4 or 4.5 day week trend. Realistically the economy isn’t doing well in terms of productivity, but I guess no government wants to be the unpopular guy and be the one that encourages people to return to working a proper 5-day week. Just at my place attendance has been atrocious since Covid, mainly coinciding with those people who had a lot of time off during Covid for whatever reason. It’s hard to see this can continue.
 

Table 25

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It is particularly concerning that, despite quite a number of days having passed since these cuts were announced, that the detail being made explicitly available to rail users is extremely opaque, to the extent that many will only find out the hard way, when they arrive at the station, on the day, intending to travel. This is particularly true of journeys between Hitchin and Stevenage, to and from London. For many years, a strong customer base has developed on these flows, with users aware that there will always be a train every 15 minutes or so, hence for many it is a convenient "turn up and go" service. In removing one of the two services per hour between Cambridge and Brighton and vice versa, in the affected hours, a 30 minute interval is introduced in each hour and the "turn up and go" concept is lost. For the sake of the minimal savings made, this is plainly shortsighted, to put it mildly and should never have been sanctioned. Furthermore, those travelling between Stevenage and London can rightly feel even more frustrated as this comes on top of the pick up/set down only policy imposed by LNER last December, which effectively removed 1 or 2 trains per hour on the Stevenage to/from London flow. To then be subject to DfT propoganda on social media that boasts of better services and more trains following services being taken into public ownership is frankly insulting to the intelligence of rail users (notwithstanding that, all things being equal, I support public ownership).
 

Chrisgr31

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Going forward, from the first Monday before Christmas Eve there will be a Saturday service on weekdays, returning to normal weekday service on the first Monday after New Years Day. This is due to there being significantly less commuting during the Christmas period.

From May 2027, on GTR it is planned for Fridays to have a timetable based on a Saturday timetable. Catford and Hertford will still have peak hour trains though apparently, and there may be adjustments to cater for school traffic.
This is due to less commuting on Fridays, with compressed workweek and working from home becoming more popular.
I suppose this is similar to the reduction and elimination of Saturday morning and lunchtime peak hours from the 1960s, as the working patterns in the country changed from a six day week with a shorter Saturday, to a five day week.
These decisions are clearly made by civil servants who can’t be arsed to go to the office and think no one else is.

The Monday before Christmas is the 21st. Lots of people will be going in on the Monday, Tuesday and probably Wednesday.

Fridays are quieter but on lines were it’s possible just run shorter trains. Passengers will get nightly annoyed if the train they usually catch just doesn’t exist in a Friday.

We need to be encouraging people to go to the office on Friday - it boosts the economy having people at work buying lunch etc
 

Benjwri

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These decisions are clearly made by civil servants who can’t be arsed to go to the office and think no one else is.

The Monday before Christmas is the 21st. Lots of people will be going in on the Monday, Tuesday and probably Wednesday.

Fridays are quieter but on lines were it’s possible just run shorter trains. Passengers will get nightly annoyed if the train they usually catch just doesn’t exist in a Friday.

We need to be encouraging people to go to the office on Friday - it boosts the economy having people at work buying lunch etc
I would question your assertion there. When I worked in London last year, 5 days a week in the office, my commute was unbelievably quiet in the run up to Christmas mentioned, London was a ghost town.

I’d also question whether train frequencies are what encourage people to go to work. If anything it’s the length of their commute, and arrival time at stations is something commuters can easily alter.
 

bramling

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It is particularly concerning that, despite quite a number of days having passed since these cuts were announced, that the detail being made explicitly available to rail users is extremely opaque, to the extent that many will only find out the hard way, when they arrive at the station, on the day, intending to travel. This is particularly true of journeys between Hitchin and Stevenage, to and from London. For many years, a strong customer base has developed on these flows, with users aware that there will always be a train every 15 minutes or so, hence for many it is a convenient "turn up and go" service. In removing one of the two services per hour between Cambridge and Brighton and vice versa, in the affected hours, a 30 minute interval is introduced in each hour and the "turn up and go" concept is lost. For the sake of the minimal savings made, this is plainly shortsighted, to put it mildly and should never have been sanctioned. Furthermore, those travelling between Stevenage and London can rightly feel even more frustrated as this comes on top of the pick up/set down only policy imposed by LNER last December, which effectively removed 1 or 2 trains per hour on the Stevenage to/from London flow. To then be subject to DfT propoganda on social media that boasts of better services and more trains following services being taken into public ownership is frankly insulting to the intelligence of rail users (notwithstanding that, all things being equal, I support public ownership).

Completely agree with all of this. All very well bragging about renationalisation, but delivering the timetable is pretty fundamental, more so that splurging out on travel safe officers, for example.
 

OneOfThe48

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I would question your assertion there. When I worked in London last year, 5 days a week in the office, my commute was unbelievably quiet in the run up to Christmas mentioned, London was a ghost town.

I’d also question whether train frequencies are what encourage people to go to work. If anything it’s the length of their commute, and arrival time at stations is something commuters can easily alter.

Very much agree. Where I work, I would say maybe 3 people work in the office every day and most people come in 2-3 times a week.

The Monday before Christmas is also a big drop off compared to the week before with more people working from home or travelling during the day to do shopping instead

The rest of the week is an even bigger drop off
 

Benjwri

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Very much agree. Where I work, I would say maybe 3 people work in the office every day and most people come in 2-3 times a week.

The Monday before Christmas is also a big drop off compared to the week before with more people working from home or travelling during the day to do shopping instead

The rest of the week is an even bigger drop off
Yeah exactly, and from where I commuted for most of the week the train had a significant amount of standees by the time it reached London, but on a Friday I would often not even have a neighbor in the seat next to me, let alone anyone standing. We've been running a full Friday peak service for the past 5 years and it hasn't tempted people back to the office.

I understand that it is upsetting to lose services but would posters not rather the railway actually responded to demand and changing commuting patterns rather than continuing to plow on, cart around empty train and lose money?
 

Bikeman78

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The blocker for the full 2tph Grinsteads is a ThFO section 4 possession opportunity so LTP the stock goes to Streatham Hill for a hour or so and back.
They ran half hourly, six days a week, from 1987 to 2020. What has changed in terms of maintenance requirements?

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Not if they think it will bring them more money? Which is what really matters
At the moment, there are six fast Southern trains from Victoria per hour but only two Gatwick Express. The former are often full, the latter rarely so. Increasing the frequency will encourage some people to switch to Gatwick Express but then costs will go up. More drivers and three extra units, assuming the shuttles all run as four car. Will other services be shortened to provide the sets?
 
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PGAT

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They ran half hourly, six days a week, from 1987 to 2020. What has changed in terms of maintenance requirements?

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At the moment, there are six fast Southern trains from Victoria per hour but only two Gatwick Express. The former are often full, the latter rarely so. Increasing the frequency will encourage some people to switch to Gatwick Express but then costs will go up. More drivers and three extra units, assuming the shuttles all run as four car. Will other services be shortened to provide the sets?
I imagine the other 2 Brighton express services would need to be cut to four cars. There’s not much fat to trim off Southern as you say they fill up most of the time
 

Bikeman78

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I imagine the other 2 Brighton express services would need to be cut to four cars. There’s not much fat to trim off Southern as you say they fill up most of the time
To be honest, that would be ample off peak. It might be a problem in the peaks but I've not observed any peak Brighton trains recently so I'm unable to offer any first hand experience.
 

SECR 65

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Perhaps with a slight re-jig of the timetable, the peak only GatEx 8 car diagram could be used to provide stock for the Gatwick Shuttle?
 

bramling

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Southern:

06:05 Littlehampton to London Bridge
06:47 Eastbourne to London Bridge
07:02 Bognor Regis to London Bridge
07:03 Uckfield to London Bridge

17:03 London Bridge to Eastbourne
17:33 London Bridge to Littlehampton
18:03 London Bridge to Bognor Regis

05:47 Horsham to Victoria via Gatwick Airport

06:53 Epsom to Victoria
07:23 Epsom to Victoria

06:55 Victoria to Epsom
17:41 Victoria to Horsham will only run between Victoria and Dorking
17:55 Victoria to Epsom
18:25 Victoria to Epsom

07:33 Norwood Junction to London Bridge
08:33 Norwood Junction to London Bridge
09:03 Norwood Junction to London Bridge

17:10 London Bridge to Sutton via Sydenham
17:40 London Bridge to Sutton via Sydenham

08:40 East Croydon to Victoria
09:41 Sutton to Selhurst
16:02 Selhurst to Victoria

07:56 Victoria to East Croydon
08:46 Victoria to Sutton via Norbury

07:01 Sutton to London Bridge via Norbury will only run between Selhurst and London Bridge
08:01 Sutton to London Bridge via Norbury will only run between Selhurst and London Bridge


Thameslink:

06:33 Bedford to Three Bridges
10:32 Bedford to Three Bridges
11:32 Bedford to Three Bridges
16:02 Bedford to Three Bridges
20:29 Luton to Gatwick Airport

07:40 Haywards Heath to Bedford
08:56 Three Bridges to Bedford
12:56 Three Bridges to Bedford
13:56 Three Bridges to Bedford
18:26 Three Bridges to Luton

07:39 Brighton to Cambridge will only run between Brighton and London Bridge as a Southern service
08:39 Brighton to Cambridge will only run between Brighton and Letchworth
13:14 Brighton to Cambridge
14:14 Brighton to Cambridge
18:44 Brighton to Cambridge

04:51 Cambridge to Brighton will only run between Cambridge and Kings Cross as a Great Northern service
10:21 Cambridge to Brighton
11:21 Cambridge to Brighton
15:51 Cambridge to Brighton will only run between London Bridge and Brighton as a Southern service
16:51 Cambridge to Brighton will only run between Letchworth and Brighton
17:51 Cambridge to Brighton will only run between Cambridge and Gatwick Airport

08:00 Orpington to Luton will only run between Orpington and West Hampstead

06:21 West Hampstead to Rainham
07:17 Luton to Rainham
08:17 Luton to Rainham
09:17 Luton to Rainham
10:17 Luton to Rainham
11:17 Luton to Rainham
12:17 Luton to Rainham
13:17 Luton to Rainham
14:17 Luton to Rainham
15:17 Luton to Rainham will only run between West Hampstead and Rainham
16:17 Luton to Rainham will only run between West Hampstead and Rainham
17:17 Luton to Rainham will only run between West Hampstead and Rainham
18:17 Luton to Rainham will only run between West Hampstead and Rainham
19:17 Luton to Rainham

05:30 Rainham to Luton will only run between Rainham and West Hampstead
06:30 Rainham to Luton will only run between Rainham and West Hampstead
08:30 Rainham to Luton
09:30 Rainham to Luton
10:30 Rainham to Luton
11:30 Rainham to Luton
12:30 Rainham to Luton
13:30 Rainham to Luton
14:30 Rainham to Luton
15:30 Rainham to Luton
16:30 Rainham to Luton
22:00 Rainham to West Hampstead


Great Northern:

08:45 Letchworth to Kings Cross

16:27 Kings Cross to Letchworth will be extended from Letchworth to Cambridge
16:54 Kings Cross to Cambridge

Just looking at the GN alterations,

I presume the 0451 Cambridge-Brighton is going to be covered by the 379 that normally lengthens one of the Kings Lynn services to 12 cars, and so will work to Hornsey upon arrival at KX. If so this means the replacement GN service will be 4/379. This means one of the AM peak Kings Lynn services will not get an attachment at Cambridge as it does now. Looking at the data 9S01 is shown as typically carrying no more than 50 people between Cambridge and London, so a 4-car would be adequate.

The remainder of the GN alterations seem to be arranged similar to how things were between December and February.
 
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Surreytraveller

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Absolutely - out of all of the Covid cuts which are still missing, they're bringing back the one which really isn't necessary. Seems an incredibly odd decision.
Gatwick Express wasn't cut because of covid. It was cut before covid, due to the rebuilding of Gatwick station
 

London Trains

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At the moment, there are six fast Southern trains from Victoria per hour but only two Gatwick Express. The former are often full, the latter rarely so. Increasing the frequency will encourage some people to switch to Gatwick Express but then costs will go up. More drivers and three extra units, assuming the shuttles all run as four car. Will other services be shortened to provide the sets?
I don't think this is the case at all, as people who don't know about the Gatwick Express being more expensive than the standard fare (mostly tourists) will already be getting scammed into paying for the GatEx, whilst the majority of people will already be using Southern services between Victoria and Gatwick*, for which there is already an excellent turn up and go service provided (05/16/24/35/46/54 from Victoria) so the higher frequency of the GatEx isn't likely to persuade anyone to pay more to use it.

*and also bear in mind the percentage of people travelling between London and Gatwick from Victoria compared to the Thameslink Core has probably decreased quite a bit since Covid too, because of the Elizabeth Line connections at Farringdon.

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There’s not much fat to trim off Southern as you say they fill up most of the time
If the suggestion that the Norwood Junction to London Bridge peak services might be removed when LO start running their extra 2tph between Crystal Palace and Highbury and Islington is correct, then that would free up 6 377s.
 
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Mattplans

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Matthew Pen
Anyway... The MP for Dartford has commented on TL cuts:
Matthew Pennycook (MP for Greenwich and W) has now responded::

Letter from Matthew Pennycook to Lord Hendy (MoS for Rail) complaining about reductions in services via Greenwich this summer.


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All fair questions posed and a clear attempt to avoid shunning the government... for obvious reason. On the topic of another Southeastern service being in the region of the cancellation (this is only helpful in the London-bound direction, I'd assume that's what he's talking about), this is just poor timetabling. I don't see why the services can't be evenly split to begin with. You shouldn't have to check the train time before leaving your house, especially not in Inner London
 

OneOfThe48

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Matthew Pen

Matthew Pennycook (MP for Greenwich and W) has now responded::

Letter from Matthew Pennycook to Lord Hendy (MoS for Rail) complaining about reductions in services via Greenwich this summer.


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All fair questions posed and a clear attempt to avoid shunning the government... for obvious reason. On the topic of another Southeastern service being in the region of the cancellation (this is only helpful in the London-bound direction, I'd assume that's what he's talking about), this is just poor timetabling. I don't see why the services can't be evenly split to begin with. You shouldn't have to check the train time before leaving your house, especially not in Inner London

Interesting letter - though i don't think i've seen anyone asking the DFT yet for more taxpayer subsidy to maintain the half-hourly service, which is likely whats needed
 

philjo

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That'll be December 21st this year. I appreciate there may be less on the 23rd and 24th, but I can't see many people already being on holiday on the 21st. This feels like a rapidly-expanding thin end of the wedge.

Cambridgeshire and Hertfordshire schools finish for Christmas on Friday 18th December so it is likely a lot of parents would not be commuting that week.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Interesting letter - though i don't think i've seen anyone asking the DFT yet for more taxpayer subsidy to maintain the half-hourly service, which is likely whats needed
they are running the half hourly service for the rest of the year and it would have been in the GTR approved business plan. This is fiddling at the margins and perhaps with the small Thameslink depot at Gillingham it needs a lot of RDW or o/t to cover the shifts which gets exacerbated over summer season. Mind you I would imagine this leaves them with spare drivers at some times of the day. Anyhow lets see if he gets a response he publishes it.
 

OneOfThe48

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Anyhow lets see if he gets a response he publishes it.

‘Operators should respond to changes in demand. Demand responsive timetables can involve risk, and passengers should be aware that the value of their service may go up as well as down. Kind regards, HM Treasury.’
 

Chrisgr31

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Yeah exactly, and from where I commuted for most of the week the train had a significant amount of standees by the time it reached London, but on a Friday I would often not even have a neighbor in the seat next to me, let alone anyone standing. We've been running a full Friday peak service for the past 5 years and it hasn't tempted people back to the office.

I understand that it is upsetting to lose services but would posters not rather the railway actually responded to demand and changing commuting patterns rather than continuing to plow on, cart around empty train and lose money?
Yes but on the Uckfield Line they can just remove carriages from the existing services. So rather than cutting a whole train (after all there are only 3 peak hour services) they could reduce each of them to 3 or 5 carriages, rather than running 2 as 8 and one as 6.
 
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30907

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Yes but on the Uckfield Line they can just remove carriages from the existing services. So rather than cutting a whole train (after all there are only 3 peak hour services) they could reduce each of them to 3 or 5 carriages, rather than running 2 as 8 and one as 6.
You don't save significant amounts of money by shortening trains.
AIUI the issue is shortage of crews, and the alternative to planned medium term cancellations is unplanned short term cancellations (typical of the SR around 1980, among others).
 

Chrisgr31

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You don't save significant amounts of money by shortening trains.
AIUI the issue is shortage of crews, and the alternative to planned medium term cancellations is unplanned short term cancellations (typical of the SR around 1980, among others).
Except of course they are not saying its shortage of crew, they are saying its a reduction in the number of passengers
 

Class 170101

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These decisions are clearly made by civil servants who can’t be arsed to go to the office and think no one else is.

The Monday before Christmas is the 21st. Lots of people will be going in on the Monday, Tuesday and probably Wednesday.
No they won't. Commuting was quieter than usual in the week before Christmas as @philjo says below

Cambridgeshire and Hertfordshire schools finish for Christmas on Friday 18th December so it is likely a lot of parents would not be commuting that week.
Most definitely commuting will disappear this week for that reason amongst many other reasons.

Fridays are quieter but on lines were it’s possible just run shorter trains. Passengers will get nightly annoyed if the train they usually catch just doesn’t exist in a Friday.
A lot of SE operators already run the Weekday timetable but with fewer carriages on Fridays. However it can lead to a slight imbalance in the evening peak because it seems there are more people going up post Friday morning peak compared to the rest of the week and it may be having some affect in the evening peak as they come home.

We need to be encouraging people to go to the office on Friday - it boosts the economy having people at work buying lunch etc
Hahaha really??? Many people I see are doing their supermarket shopping on Friday vice Saturday and probably spending their money, and certainly their time elsewhere on Saturdays. I don't think your suggestion will do this and I certainly wouldn't go to the office on Fridays if it wasn't local to me.

They ran half hourly, six days a week, from 1987 to 2020. What has changed in terms of maintenance requirements?
That will be down to Health and Safety standards I'm afraid. Patrolling between trains, called red zone working, not permitted any more. To be honest I still find it incredible in these days of technology including but not just AI that the railway still does patrolling with the Mark I human eyeball. Hopefully the Class 153 inspection train trials will see the end of track patrolling.
 

Mattplans

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Caught an FOI request that has detailed a small email chain between GTR and SE planners

Email 1:
Morning all,

We have just had a look through Realtime trains for the CHX closure and it appears that GTR (TL) are running the Rainham services as hourly for the majority of the day with Q paths on what would normally be the other half hour slot. It appears to start w/c 20/07 and runs through to Friday 28th August.

Is this something that you are/were aware of as it has come as a surprise to us.
The link below takes you to the page on RTT showing GTR services through Greenwich between 0600 and 2000.
Email 2:
Further to the below,
If this is the case and GTR do reduce to hourly for the majority of the day, not only will the passengers be impacted but will also likely to have an
impact on any drivers passing to / from depot / stations etc
Email 3: now looping in GTR
Hi
Any idea what this reduction of Rainhams is about during the 20/7 to 28/8 period?
Thanks!
Email 4:
Yep - demand-led school holiday reduction timetable. I thought we'd had some correspondence with your team about it coinciding....but will check.
(attachment detailing alterations which are also in post#1)

1782427476107.png

Interesting takeaway is industry planners using RTT instead of internal tools. And of course poor? communication and it's a shame that it coincides with the Charing X closure of which Woolwich has gone mostly unscathed but there is a reduction in services between London Bridge and Dartford (2 less services during off-peak/h; 4 less services during peak) (4 tph will run during peak hours Lbg-dfd, 5 tph during off peak)
 

OliverH68

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Interesting takeaway is industry planners using RTT instead of internal tools
More common than you think - RTT is freely accessible to all whereas with the likes of TRUST or TPS you need a login, which not everyone will have. TPS is especially fiddly to get as an external member of staff (hence only LTP teams use it and maybe 1 or 2 STP planners might have a login).

Not to mention depending on the internal system used, it may be quite slow.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Thameslink trains now removed from online timetables on the Brighton Line but no information at the stations yet warning passengers of these changes.
 

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