General Rant: Are these really 3rd year students?

[Nym]

I've just had a peice of group work returned to me and frankly I have seen better from GCSE students! This is supposed to be a group of 3rd and 4th year students from EPS and MFL schools at one of the best universities in the country, yet they can't write a simple report, in proper report style!

For example...

It is possibly going to open a can of worms regarding the Middle East for example, mainly due to thefact that water is not as easily available to them due to their geographical location. By buying products from the Middle East, it could be possible that you would be fuelling a conflict as they struggle to provide you with a product that is requiring water, which could be used for more essential purposes.

There are so many things with that (it is the opening under a heading) that I gave up after the first few lines, and have sent some rather frank feedback to the guy who wrote it.

p4[Problems]: 'going to open a can of worms' ?Cliché, why use it, also, What is it? It hasn't been refered to under this heading as it is new, therefore mention what IT is implicitly! Change to: "The water labelling scheme may cause problems with our Middle Eastern partners,"
"it could be possible" replace with "it is possible", or "it could fuel a conflict", stop using it, it isn't good to use it when there is another imperative reference one can use to refer to what we're talking about! Replace the whole section "By buying products from the middle east, it could be possible that you would be fuelling a conflict as they struggle to provide you with a product that is requiring water" with "Imports from the Middle East may be affected due to potential conflicts from the lack of water in areas supplying water intervsive products"
OK, I can't correct half of this without re-writing it, so I'm not going to, it was agreed with Mohammed on friday that I wouldn't re-write anyone else's work.

There may be spelling errors in that above, I tapped it out in anger this morning

Is it me? Am I out of order for expecting better from this place? Is this normal that 3rd years can't write in a report style properly?

 

[Ascot]

As long as they get the points what's the problem? They graded on presentation? Otherwise why do extra work for no direct or indirect effect?


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[Nym]

The're 30% graded on presentation, it has to be in a professional style as if coming from a consultancy firm. Considering my target grades for this year are 76% I kind of need it to look good...

(This semester it's 67.857% to get the degree I need, 87% for the one I want)

 

[Hydro]

As long as they get the points what's the problem? They graded on presentation? Otherwise why do extra work for no direct or indirect effect?

Because it's unprofessional. It does read like GCSE work. A graduate professional tipping up at O'Flannigan International Engineering Consultancy (tarmacing drives since 1856, worldwide) writing like that would be laughed at.

Reminds me of an Engineer I once worked for requesting a drawing of a complicated rail stress site, showing the pull points etc from one of his Senior Technical Officers. It was submitted on A4 printer paper, drawn with biro. He was shouted out of the office. He didn't last long either.

It's not enough to just think "as long as I get the marks, it doesn't matter" because it will matter once you leave Uni and suddenly presentation, writing styles and content can determine whether you even get the job. If you're in the habit of writing like a SATS paper then it's easily carried on.

 

[Ascot]

Then no you're not out of order.


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[Ascot]

It's not enough to just think "as long as I get the marks, it doesn't matter" because it will matter once you leave Uni and suddenly presentation, writing styles and content can determine whether you even get the job. If you're in the habit of writing like a SATS paper then it's easily carried on.

If you've got to tell people that then that's a problem. That comes under common sense.


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[Hydro]

If you've got to tell people that then that's a problem. That comes under common sense.

It's a problem that seems to be quite widespread.

 

[Ascot]

It's a problem that seems to be quite widespread.

Sorry I sounded out of touch then. I mean it's a problem if it's expected in that scenario but it's bad when people expect things of people on a different social/academic level.


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[Ferret]

It's a problem that seems to be quite widespread.

Yes - I'm afraid the quality of teaching really is woeful. You only have to see the standard of posts on many forums to see that our education system is not up to an acceptable standard. The rot started long before Tony Blair, but his 'Education, education, education' speech rings quite hollow now.

 

[Yew]

Try being at my uni, we are the first year of the course, and sometimes i think the lectures learn more about teaching in a lecture than we do

 

[sprite]

Is it me? Am I out of order for expecting better from this place? Is this normal that 3rd years can't write in a report style properly?

The Physics students in the class (see my PM) should be able to write in a report style as for years 1 and 2 we had to produce 3 written reports. In year 1, 2 were joint and 1 was solo, in year 2 1 was joint and 2 were solo. This year both reports written had to be solo, one was a lab report and the other was a "conference paper", a short report, 2 sides of A4.

 

[madannie77]

Try being at my uni, we are the first year of the course, and sometimes i think the lecturers learn more about teaching in a lecture than we do

I agree there, as I remember several of my lecturers being poor teachers (if compared to many of my school teachers), but surely it is not the job of a lecturer to spoon feed information to students at university. The information a lecturer imparts should be only the starting point, with the student having responsibility to read and research and learn more on their own inititative. Or have things changed since I was at university (many years ago)?

The Physics students in the class (see my PM) should be able to write in a report style as for years 1 and 2 we had to produce 3 written reports. In year 1, 2 were joint and 1 was solo, in year 2 1 was joint and 2 were solo. This year both reports written had to be solo, one was a lab report and the other was a "conference paper", a short report, 2 sides of A4.

When I first went to University (to study a science subject) we had regular lectures in English in the first year, in which the skills required to write the language in many contexts were taught at length.

My experience in industry in recent years is that these sort of skills are no longer taught at school or university. I became very tired of my proof reading of colleagues' work turning into almost total re-writes.

 

[Hydro]

Yes - I'm afraid the quality of teaching really is woeful.

My partner is in her final year of Primary Education at University and she has been very frustrated with her teaching placements in some of the larger schools. Some of the schools sound like a big building where people gather to moan about each other behind each others backs, complain about how hard life is and occasionally have to photocopy some worksheets out of a book to hand out to someone elses child.

 

[Ferret]

Try being at my uni, we are the first year of the course, and sometimes i think the lectures learn more about teaching in a lecture than we do

I can believe it. I did start a University course but left because I decided it wasn't for me and I wanted a railway career. One of the lecturers was that busy teaching the masses what a good thing left-wing politics was that he forgot he was actually meant to be delivering lectures on the Law. If I'd wanted to study Politics, guess what I'd have enrolled on.........!

 

[Yew]

I agree there, as I remember several of my lecturers being poor teachers (if compared to many of my school teachers), but surely it is not the job of a lecturer to spoon feed information to students at university. The information a lecturer imparts should be only the starting point, with the student having responsibility to read and research and learn more on their own inititative. Or have things changed since I was at university (many years ago)?

There is a differance between not spoon feeding it, and blazing through complex topics in a short amount of time and then shouting at the class when you ask them a question in a lecture that nobody can answer. 'This is a very basic principle, if you dont know this you dont know anything'

 

[Ivo]

Is it me? Am I out of order for expecting better from this place? Is this normal that 3rd years can't write in a report style properly?

I wish it was you (no offence ), but it most certainly isn't. As some of you here will know I have openly criticised the average student at Bath Spa University (OK, it's one of the weaker ones, but it's still a University!) for being dumb.

The average Spa student...

• Can't read a bus timetable
• Can't read a map
• Can't read anything academic above GCSE level
• Can't keep themselves and have to return to Mummy and Daddy if they catch a cold
• Doesn't know how to hail a bus, and gets annoyed when it doesn't stop
• Doesn't have any sense of urgency or time (as seen most frequently at bus stops and their inability to "get a move on"
• Thinks I am intelligent because I can spell properly
• Thinks I am intelligent because I know the meaning of the word "pedagogy" (a bit worrying in a teaching profession)
• Thinks I am intelligent because I am highly efficient at arithmetic

That's all I can be bothered to write. There is plenty more out there - but if you want an idea, some of them don't know the answer to 12 x 12, some of them don't realise there is a difference between "SPA1" and "SPA2" - and worst of all, some of them don't even know where Bristol is!

 

[ainsworth74]

The information a lecturer imparts should be only the starting point, with the student having responsibility to read and research and learn more on their own inititative. Or have things changed since I was at university (many years ago)?

Nope certainly on my course we're expected to do that. Now admittedly it doesn't start like that as the degree to which we're expected to learn by ourselves ramps up over the three years as in first year it's perfectly possible to get a decent pass without doing very much independent learning at all but by third year you really are having to do a fair bit on your own if you want to keep getting the good marks.

 

[madannie77]

There is a differance between not spoon feeding it, and blazing through complex topics in a short amount of time and then shouting at the class when you ask them a question in a lecture that nobody can answer. 'This is a very basic principle, if you dont know this you dont know anything'

Fair point: I was commenting on my experience with many young people I have worked with who seemed to think that what I call "spoon-feeding" is what is supposed to happen at university, and thought that you were referring to the same thing.

It sounds like the lecturer you speak of is unfit for the role. At university I had a lecturer who rattled through complex subjects very rapidly. At the end of one lecture he asked if there were any questions and was rather taken aback to be asked to go through the whole topic again, only more slowly! Most of the class did very badly in the exam he set, and he didn't do much lecturing the following year.

It was certainly the case when I was a student that the lecturers were essentially researchers for whom progression up the ranks meant that teaching came along almost by accident, and I don't think any of them had any proper training as teachers. It certainly showed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope certainly on my course we're expected to do that. Now admittedly it doesn't start like that as the degree to which we're expected to learn by ourselves ramps up over the three years as in first year it's perfectly possible to get a decent pass without doing very much independent learning at all but by third year you really are having to do a fair bit on your own if you want to keep getting the good marks.

Good to know that it is still the case. I think it was like that back in my student days. I certainly recall spending far more time working alone in libraries in the third and fourth years of my course than the first two.

 

[Nym]

Sorry I sounded out of touch then. I mean it's a problem if it's expected in that scenario but it's bad when people expect things of people on a different social/academic level.

The unit is working around a case senario of "Your group is employed as consultants and you have to produce reports in that style"

Try being at my uni, we are the first year of the course, and sometimes i think the lectures learn more about teaching in a lecture than we do

It's not usually the case with our 1st year lecturers in the school of EEE, but thats mainly because the likes of senior students complained to the head of school about lack of teaching skills and all lecturers, readers and fellows are now taught how to teach. A lot of teaching is carried out in the 1st year by teaching fellows and ex. industry doctoral candidates from labs, so the quality is quite high, the teaching quality slips when it's taught by researchers.

The Physics students in the class (see my PM) should be able to write in a report style as for years 1 and 2 we had to produce 3 written reports. In year 1, 2 were joint and 1 was solo, in year 2 1 was joint and 2 were solo. This year both reports written had to be solo, one was a lab report and the other was a "conference paper", a short report, 2 sides of A4.

I don't have any physics students in my group, theres...

3 Mechatronic Engineers, 1 Computer Systems Engineer, 3 Electrical & Electronic Engineers & 1 MFL / Business combined student.

In the school of E&EE a lot of 1st and 2nd year formative work is in the form of a pro-forma, meaning that people don't learn the technical writing skills required. As you may know, I have quite reasonable skills in this, even when I'm tapping out a rantey post on some kind of HS2 or Northern Hub hypothetical plan.

I can believe it. I did start a University course but left because I decided it wasn't for me and I wanted a railway career. One of the lecturers was that busy teaching the masses what a good thing left-wing politics was that he forgot he was actually meant to be delivering lectures on the Law. If I'd wanted to study Politics, guess what I'd have enrolled on.........!

Unfortunately, since I'm now too old for an apprentaship, this is the only way I can get into what I want to be doing. Also, when lecturers get on their own cruscades, as I have had happen a couple of times, yes, even in EEE, I have been complaining that day to the director of studdies.

There is a differance between not spoon feeding it, and blazing through complex topics in a short amount of time and then shouting at the class when you ask them a question in a lecture that nobody can answer. 'This is a very basic principle, if you dont know this you dont know anything'

Yeah, but even when one lecturer, quite a good one also a consultant for Siemens and the National Grid Power Conversion Team, he explicitly taught all examinable meterial with extensive examples, and come doing some practice exam questions, no-one had a clue what he was on about in the lecture, even though he'd covered it the previous week!

I wish it was you (no offence ), but it most certainly isn't. As some of you here will know I have openly criticised the average student at Bath Spa University (OK, it's one of the weaker ones, but it's still a University!) for being dumb.

The average Spa student...

• Can't read a bus timetable
• Can't read a map
• Can't read anything academic above GCSE level
• Can't keep themselves and have to return to Mummy and Daddy if they catch a cold
• Doesn't know how to hail a bus, and gets annoyed when it doesn't stop
• Doesn't have any sense of urgency or time (as seen most frequently at bus stops and their inability to "get a move on"
• Thinks I am intelligent because I can spell properly
• Thinks I am intelligent because I know the meaning of the word "pedagogy" (a bit worrying in a teaching profession)
• Thinks I am intelligent because I am highly efficient at arithmetic

That's all I can be bothered to write. There is plenty more out there - but if you want an idea, some of them don't know the answer to 12 x 12, some of them don't realise there is a difference between "SPA1" and "SPA2" - and worst of all, some of them don't even know where Bristol is!

Manchester students rarely need to read bus timetables, and rarely can, most can't even fathom the UK rail network, again, EPS students!
Maps stump most students, again in the schools of meterials, design, I've even seen MACE students not be able to read an OS Explorer map, (Mechanical Aerospace and Civil Engineering)
Always the case, 80% of our students can't read, and 30% thanks to an international exchange programme can't speak english properly.
Again, the same here, I've been supporting myself since I was 17... kinda helps, but really anoyes me when people say the're broke but still have beer money...
No-one has a sense of urgency in Manchester Uni, rather irritating when I have a 2min connection at the other end of the bus

The last three are especially irritating, people think the're inteligent at my school because they can resite lecture meterials, all well and good, but I actually understand them, one you get into industry (as is the opinion of most of the senior staff in the university) they will be screwed. There is also the tendancy to be over accurate, "I need a 9.783Ohm power resistor", "No, you need a 10 Ohm one!".

And I have people here that can't point to Manchester on a map!

 

[Oswyntail]

I've just had a peice ...

Unfortunate start! But you are quite right - the standard of written English has declined immensely in the last few decades, not only in the basics of grammar, syntax and spelling, but in the ability to marshal arguments on the page. No one should attempt to deny that this skill is critical in most desk-based jobs, but it is truly shocking that this is appearing at universities. Even at Oxford, there are remedial classes in how to write an essay. Many factors have contributed to this: not wishing to criticise children at school; multiple-choice exams; cut-and-paste; societal low expectation.
Stay tough, and be as harsh as you need to be in criticising writing like this..

 

[Nym]

Stay tough, and be as harsh as you need to be in criticising writing like this..

Thanks I will be in the next meeting then...

And I did note that I'm tapping this out in anger and not really proof reading my posts...

PS: The only reason I know how to write reports is because I proof read them three or four times and spend a lot of time making sure the're right, I have never been that good at written english, I just try damned hard!

 

[madannie77]

Stay tough, and be as harsh as you need to be in criticising writing like this..

Amen to that!

Thanks I will be in the next meeting then...

And I did note that I'm tapping this out in anger and not really proof reading my posts...

PS: The only reason I know how to write reports is because I proof read them three or four times and spend a lot of time making sure the're right, I have never been that good at written english, I just try damned hard!

Exactly: practice makes perfect. Continued use is also important. I noticed that, having not had to write a great deal in recent years, when I recently started editing a magazine it took a while to get the feel of writing English correctly and coherently again.

At the risk of sounding like an old fuddy-duddy, I was taught English by two teachers who were "old school" English teachers and put much emphasis on correct grammar and punctuation. Much as it seemed very tedious at the time, it certainly stood me in good stead in later years.

 

[Ferret]

Madannie77, there's the problem - it's seen as tedious to have to learn the language correctly

 

[Badger]

Speaking as a 3rd year student who just had to complete their first report - it's very possible for a 3rd year student not to have the faintest idea how to write accademically. I didn't, nor did my partners.

That's after having to write reports for High School and all that. It's all very well having written one in the past, that doesn't imply ability to do so or knowledge of the format.

Whether that's grounds to dismiss a report is up to you of course, I understand your points. I'm just suggesting why it might have been so bad.


However, and this is something I really hate and a personal opinion (therefore should probably be ignored), I hate the distinction between formal and informal writing. "Opening a can of worms" in particular is a perfectly understandable sentence. (I would argue that if it's vague to understand, then so is a lot of language, and neither the fault of the writer or the reader). I agree on the badly placed "it", but that holds true to any writing, either formal or informal. Vague direction is a problem anywhere (especially on these forums where people often mistake who a post is aimed at, for example). "It could be possible" is a bad phrase but it still has meaning and does mean something different to "It is possible" - possible implies that it can happen, could-possible implies that given the right variables it can happen but might not be able to happen (to be pedantic, it's like comparing: (a one in 100 chance it could rain) to (a one in 100 chance it could rain provided we're not on the moon). Not knowing whether we're on the moon, we say, "it could be possible to rain here", rather than "it is possible to rain here". I'm explaining this one badly and hence why this paragraph should have been ignored :roll.

But I'm digressing, my point simply being that I personally dislike any notion of formal vs informal.

Going back to my previous point about my paper, be happy it didn't come in Comic Sans MS size 14 bold. Have seen it... in letters from my lecturers.


* I've intentionally used "their" and not "his/her" in the first sentence, but that's for other reasons.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

But I'm digressing, my point simply being that I personally dislike any notion of formal vs informal.

Its often a vital distinction.

A text can be said to be orphanned into the world after which the reader has no access to the writer and must rely solely on the text for their knowledge, guidance, and future actions. Formality helps these processes greatly.

Informal text doesn't carry the same burden of responsibility.

Some casual narrative in the street which may include a few phrases such as "Tell me about it" or "I was like, uh?" can have real meaning in their entire social and interactive context. In a formal text, they will have none. In fact, they are confusing.

Technical, legal and documentary writings may include a few phrases such as "notwithstanding any exception in 5, 6 or 7 above" and "will apply in the absence of instructions to the contrary" which may need to be read and re-read before the reader is satisfied with the meaning, but having done that, the reader should be confident in their unambiguous understanding. In informal narrative, these phrases would be unnecessarily complicated and ugly.

How can we not value the distinction between formal and informal writing?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think it is a bit unfair to blame the students totally.
I am currently in my final year, studying computer science at university, and at no point have we been taught how to write a professional report. If you do not teach the students those skills, then how do you expect them to be able to produce a professional report? You just can't.

My experience in industry in recent years is that these sort of skills are no longer taught at school or university.

Pretty much this.

I wish it was you (no offence ), but it most certainly isn't. As some of you here will know I have openly criticised the average student at Bath Spa University (OK, it's one of the weaker ones, but it's still a University!) for being dumb.

Not going to mention anything about Spa!

and worst of all, some of them don't even know where Bristol is!

The same is true this side of the city too. I was talking to one of the people in my lectures earlier today, and he was saying that one of the freshers he knows decided to get on the Portsmouth Harbour train in an attempt to get to Bristol. They realised when they got to Trowbridge :roll:

 

[madannie77]

I hate the distinction between formal and informal writing.

As DaveNewcastle says, the difference is vital and necessary.

Writing technical material in an informal style would be disastrous.

For various reasons (mainly the political and financial power of the USA) the language we speak and write is thought of as the global language.

At one time I was involved in research work which was truly global, with the majority of publications and journals in English. If we are forcing people from all over the world to read these reports then surely it is incumbent on us to write those reports in a style which is understandable by them. I found that by and large the foreigners I dealt with wrote much better papers than the native English speakers as they had all studied English formally as a foreign language.

That is, I think, the nub of the problem: for many people there is a big difference between how they speak, which informs how they write in an informal manner, and how to write formally for a wider readership. If the latter is not being taught then that is a major failing of the education system in this country.

I think it is a bit unfair to blame the students totally.
I am currently in my final year, studying computer science at university, and at no point have we been taught how to write a professional report. If you do not teach the students those skills, then how do you expect them to be able to produce a professional report? You just can't.

I find it quite shocking that this country is educating people without training in what is a vital part of that education.

 

[ainsworth74]

For various reasons (mainly the political and financial power of the USA) the language we speak and write is thought of as the global language.

I suspect our globe spanning empire also had a part to play in English becoming the global language

Perhaps it would be better to say that the empire turned English into the global language and the US's political/financial power ensured it continued as such.

 

[madannie77]

I suspect our globe spanning empire also had a part to play in English becoming the global language

Perhaps it would be better to say that the empire turned English into the global language and the US's political/financial power ensured it continued as such.

Indeed: I was, perhaps, thinking too specifically when I typed my last post. I was referring to my former area of work which only developed in the post WWII period when a lot of the pioneering work was done by American researchers.

 

[WestCoast]

I suspect our globe spanning empire also had a part to play in English becoming the global language

Perhaps it would be better to say that the empire turned English into the global language and the US's political/financial power ensured it continued as such.

What I find interesting (and there has been some research in this field) is the sheer number of students learning English as a foreign language favouring American English over British English. Many of the recordings played to students feature an American English dialect and syntax, as well as the American grammar and orthography in written text books. It's not hugely different, but there are some key differences (the "was/were shift" being a key example) and of course the main spelling and terminology differences. I have a few friends teaching English abroad on behalf of the British Council and they have noticed this is standard practice outside Europe and is increasingly common within Europe.