Rail in the North conference

[CosherB]

The answer being "Because you haven't booked in advance". :roll:

I don't think booking in advance is any cheaper on peak time trains first class.

Liverpool? It used to be a port when everybody and everything travelling to and from UK travelled by sea. Today it's an isolated city on a river estuary and the coast, with a subsequently limited hinterland. Because it has more of a past than a future it is populated by a lot of folk with big chips on their shoulders "who 'ave it 'arder than everyone else".

 

[northwichcat]

Because it has more of a past than a future It used to be a port when everybody and everything travelling to and from UK travelled by sea.

It still is a port with Liverpool to Isle of Man and Ireland ferries operating, although I don't think any through rail tickets are available, unlike with other ports like Holyhead and Dover.

There are concrete plans for cruises to start and end at Liverpool and to rival Southampton again. Currently it only acts as a calling point for cruises, which doesn't create demand for transport to and from Liverpool.

 

[WestCoast]

It still is a port with Liverpool to Isle of Man and Ireland ferries operating, although I don't think any through rail tickets are available, unlike with other ports like Holyhead and Dover.

No, SailRail is available via Liverpool to Douglas and Belfast.

 

[CosherB]

It still is a port with services to IOM, and a lot of container freight to Seaforth and Garston out-of-town docks.

But as a port it is a shadow of its former self.

 

[northwichcat]

No, SailRail is available via Liverpool to Douglas and Belfast.

But not Dublin?

Douglas and Belfast need better promotion. Virgin and ATW publicise Dublin through tickets and sell the tickets on their websites, but Northern, TPE, Merseyrail, LM and EMT don't seem to publicise Douglas and Belfast via Liverpool, or sell the tickets on their websites.

 

[WestCoast]

But not Dublin?

Douglas and Belfast need better promotion. Virgin and ATW publicise Dublin through tickets and sell the tickets on their websites, but Northern, TPE, Merseyrail, LM and EMT don't seem to publicise Douglas and Belfast via Liverpool, or sell the tickets on their websites.

Double checked and neither Dublin or Belfast are offered from Liverpool on SailRail now (I am sure this has changed since Norfolkline withdrew from the Irish Sea). P&O are the operator on the Liverpool - Dublin route and they don't appear to offer SailRail at all.

So, it's the Douglas sailing only now from Liverpool through the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company.

EDIT - Found a map of supported routes: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/syste...int_maps/Network_Rail_geographic_map_2011.pdf

 

[Gareth]

1. There was certainly strong interest in a direct HS2 link, but in truth the audience was not that clued up on the route planning.
Maria Eagle kept on about the latest DfT brief being to "slow" the Liverpool connection by 10 minutes (using the classic line from Lichfield).
But the politicians know they can't promise particular routes and simply suggested lobbying MPs before the route was announced.
Arup people (who are doing the route for DfT) listened but said nothing.

There was some comment about whether the upcoming Liverpool City Mayor will be able to make a difference (like Boris does for London), but the politicians thought not because he would represent just the city, not the region.

2. The only real comment about isolating the CLC route came from the Warrington people as I mentioned. Speke Airport people (I can't bring myself to call it J**n L****n) were there but said nothing.
Sometimes the Northern Hub seems to be about getting Yorkshire folk to Manchester Airport (Bradford and Halifax kept getting mentioned).

As the delegates drifted off to their cars I got the feeling they were paying lip service to rail, and just wanted a tick in the box called local investment.
A Sefton councillor described the docks railway link as "a disgrace", much to the bemusement of Peel and Freightliner who had just been saying how successful it was.
Loads of disconnects here.

Hope this helps.

Yes, that's a good summary. Thanks a lot.

The question I'd have liked asked would be why Liverpool is always comparing itself to Manchester.

Because it's the nearest next big city and therefore, what happens there affects Liverpool more than what happens in Newcastle or Bristol does. Reshifting the historic parity that the two cities have had in terms of physical infrastructure (ie existing WCML and M6), and thus, similar journey times to London, to giving Manchester a massive infrastructural advantage is a huge issue and a potentially fatal one to Liverpool. Of course, this isn't seen as an issue of Rail Forums, where almost everyone seems to think Liverpool has a population comparable to any Greater Mancunian commuter town and no one supposedly actually works here anyway. I hope that answers your question.



The attitudes towards Liverpool on this forum are rather retro, about 30 years out of date and were BS even back then; this sort of 'prat' comment is a good example...

It isn't home to anything like as many whingeing scousers, that's the main reason...

 

[John55]

It still is a port with services to IOM, and a lot of container freight to Seaforth and Garston out-of-town docks.

But as a port it is a shadow of its former self.

I am interested by the comment that the port is a shadow of its former self as trade through the Port of Liverpool is at the highest level ever with over 30m tons of cargo handled each year. The nature of cargo handling and logistics management has changed port activity completely since 1960 and the nature of rail freight in the UK should tell you that.

This forum has noticed the import of the most recent class 70s through Liverpool on scheduled trans-Atlantic services. This is no fluke as most UK - North American surface freight does use the Port of Liverpool.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, but passenger trade has almost entirely gone, most of the docks were filled in and the former extensive rail freight lines no longer exist.

 

[tbtc]

I am interested by the comment that the port is a shadow of its former self as trade through the Port of Liverpool is at the highest level ever with over 30m tons of cargo handled each year

The volumes of cargo may be high but that doesn't make much difference to passenger trains (which is what is being squabbled about here, e.g. Manchester having a better London service than Liverpool).

Yes, Liverpool has ships sailing for the Republic of Ireland/ Northern Ireland/ Isle of Man, but nobody is suggesting that Heysham Port be part of HS2.

 

[WatcherZero]

The attitudes towards Liverpool on this forum are rather retro, about 30 years out of date and were BS even back then; this sort of 'prat' comment is a good example...

Yeah its not as bad as all that but to deny problems exist is to go to the other extreme, the city despite its equal infrastructure links doesnt generate the same level of economic activity with the rest of the country and 30 years on the population is still annually shrinking.

 

[tbtc]

Because it's the nearest next big city and therefore, what happens there affects Liverpool more than what happens in Newcastle or Bristol does. Reshifting the historic parity that the two cities have had in terms of physical infrastructure (ie existing WCML and M6), and thus, similar journey times to London, to giving Manchester a massive infrastructural advantage is a huge issue and a potentially fatal one to Liverpool. Of course, this isn't seen as an issue of Rail Forums, where almost everyone seems to think Liverpool has a population comparable to any Greater Mancunian commuter town and no one supposedly actually works here anyway. I hope that answers your question

Always being in Manchester's shadow and trying to compare Liverpool to Manchester won't help.

Liverpool has some things that Manchester lacks (e.g. most suburban stations in Merseyside have a "turn up and go" EMU service whilst there are many suburban stations in Greater Manchester that have just a couple of trains an hour, often Pacers). But instead of appreciating what Liverpool has (and the improvements on their way) we hear complaints that the grass is greener elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah its not as bad as all that but to deny problems exist is to go to the other extreme, the city despite its equal infrastructure links doesnt generate the same level of economic activity with the rest of the country and 30 years on the population is still annually shrinking.

Good point.

Population stats alone don't tell you the whole story. Leeds has a much bigger business sector than Sheffield so Leeds gets a better service to/from London - that's fair (regardless of arguing about the boundaries of "city regions" and all of that).

 

[John55]

The volumes of cargo may be high but that doesn't make much difference to passenger trains (which is what is being squabbled about here, e.g. Manchester having a better London service than Liverpool).

Yes, Liverpool has ships sailing for the Republic of Ireland/ Northern Ireland/ Isle of Man, but nobody is suggesting that Heysham Port be part of HS2.

I actually responded to a post about freight traffic.

On a less trivial matter why is HS2+ being designed with relatively poor access to the second largest population centre west of the Pennines? If you are going to spend goodness knows how many billions on the thing you would think it would be designed to tap as much of the available traffic as possible.

If the MDs of the company I worked for learned the designers had excluded 30 or 40% of the potential market for our products we would have been sacked.

In addition to the discussion around Liverpool and Manchester there are places like Warrington, Preston, and Wigan which will see little benefit from HS2. The decision to dump the non-Manchester traffic onto the slowest part of the Trent Valley line can only be described as ludicrous.

 

[transmanche]

That's quite some hope!

If you can get Manchester CTLZ tickets which allow free Metrolink travel in the city centre on local journeys to Manchester, I can't see why you shouldn't be able to get something similar for a short light rail ride from South Parkway.

Yeah, as that's only for journeys wholly within Greater Manchester, it's of no use for those travelling from further afield who want to go into the city centre or if their journey requires transfer between Picc & Vic.

How much does the bus cost?

£1.80 single when I used it last year so I'd assume it's probably £1.90 single by now.

That seems pretty much in line with what bus fares cost these days. When you said "overpriced", I thought you meant a fiver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But not Dublin?

Douglas and Belfast need better promotion. Virgin and ATW publicise Dublin through tickets and sell the tickets on their websites, but Northern, TPE, Merseyrail, LM and EMT don't seem to publicise Douglas and Belfast via Liverpool, or sell the tickets on their websites.

No mention of either route on sailrail.co.uk - in fact that seems to be hosted on the ATW website and only features the Holyhead and Fishguard routes now. Even the Stranraer services are not listed anymore.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are concrete plans for cruises to start and end at Liverpool and to rival Southampton again. Currently it only acts as a calling point for cruises, which doesn't create demand for transport to and from Liverpool.

Did I not read somwhere that certain funding for Liverpool facilities enhacement on this matter was dependant on Liverpool NOT taking any of the existing trade away from Southampton.

Can someone kindly clarify this point, if this is the case.

 

[northwichcat]

Did I not read somwhere that certain funding for Liverpool facilities enhacement on this matter was dependant on Liverpool NOT taking any of the existing trade away from Southampton.

Can someone kindly clarify this point, if this is the case.

How would that possibly work?

The cruise liners may not switch their Southampton services to Liverpool, but if they introduce new services from Liverpool, the Southampton services may see a reduction in usage and subsequently be withdrawn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, as that's only for journeys wholly within Greater Manchester, it's of no use for those travelling from further afield who want to go into the city centre or if their journey requires transfer between Picc & Vic.

The Manchester CTLZ tickets extend to include Glossop, Hadfield , New Mills (Derbyshire) and Knutsford (Cheshire) and from stations outside that area there is a Metrolink add-on which is cheaper than buying a new ticket.

That seems pretty much in line with what bus fares cost these days. When you said "overpriced", I thought you meant a fiver.

For most people using the bus they'll have to buy two singles - one to get to the Airport and one to get away again, while most people making a return ticket on the same day can buy a return/day ticket and save money. If they did a period return, like Transdev do then people would save money.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

No mention of the good old Halton Curve? The line that would lead the good people of Wales directly into any cruise terminal, airport link etc that Liverpool may offer?
I suppose it is insignificant in comparison to the whole Northern Hub scheme.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How would that possibly work? The cruise liners may not switch their Southampton services to Liverpool, but if they introduce new services from Liverpool, the Southampton services may see a reduction in usage and subsequently be withdrawn.

I now have come up with more information on this matter which clarifies the position somewhat. The grant monies that I originally referred to, totalled £9 million from the EC / Government to enable Liverpool to revamp the Pier Head area to allow these cruise ships to visit, but it appears that Liverpool have agreed to pay back all of this grant money back to the Government, after intervention by Southampton, who claimed that it was commercially unfair for Liverpool to receive public financial funding for this project.

Liverpool had originally made an offer of the return of £5 million of the original £9 million, but were informed that it needed to offer the total return of the grant. Southampton have taken a very hard line on this matter and said that they would do all that they could to ensure that the total amount of EC grant monies were returned. Southampton are claiming that this funding was only made on the specific condition that these monies would only be used for "cruise liner stop-offs" and certainly not for voyages that both start and end at the Liverpool terminal.

It will most certainly be interesting to see how matters do finally resolve, if Liverpool do find some new way to finance this project, despite being in severe financial difficulties as a governing body.

 

[ls1911]

Yes, that's a good summary. Thanks a lot.





Because it's the nearest next big city and therefore, what happens there affects Liverpool more than what happens in Newcastle or Bristol does. Reshifting the historic parity that the two cities have had in terms of physical infrastructure (ie existing WCML and M6), and thus, similar journey times to London, to giving Manchester a massive infrastructural advantage is a huge issue and a potentially fatal one to Liverpool. Of course, this isn't seen as an issue of Rail Forums, where almost everyone seems to think Liverpool has a population comparable to any Greater Mancunian commuter town and no one supposedly actually works here anyway. I hope that answers your question.



The attitudes towards Liverpool on this forum are rather retro, about 30 years out of date and were BS even back then; this sort of 'prat' comment is a good example...

Couldnt agree more,just to read a sensible forum page without the silly comments would be great

 

[ukrob]

I now have come up with more information on this matter which clarifies the position somewhat. The grant monies that I originally referred to, totalled £9 million from the EC / Government to enable Liverpool to revamp the Pier Head area to allow these cruise ships to visit, but it appears that Liverpool have agreed to pay back all of this grant money back to the Government, after intervention by Southampton, who claimed that it was commercially unfair for Liverpool to receive public financial funding for this project.

Liverpool had originally made an offer of the return of £5 million of the original £9 million, but were informed that it needed to offer the total return of the grant. Southampton have taken a very hard line on this matter and said that they would do all that they could to ensure that the total amount of EC grant monies were returned. Southampton are claiming that this funding was only made on the specific condition that these monies would only be used for "cruise liner stop-offs" and certainly not for voyages that both start and end at the Liverpool terminal.

It will most certainly be interesting to see how matters do finally resolve, if Liverpool do find some new way to finance this project, despite being in severe financial difficulties as a governing body.

As far as I am aware it is resolved. Planning permission went in about ten days ago for baggage handling facilities etc.

 

[Gareth]

Yeah its not as bad as all that but to deny problems exist is to go to the other extreme, the city despite its equal infrastructure links doesnt generate the same level of economic activity with the rest of the country and 30 years on the population is still annually shrinking.

Right, so we pack up and go home then? There are a variety of reasons for the situation you speak of and they are both economic and political. However, it's totally wrong to screw Liverpool by just speculating that it will always lose population, always have a lower economic level of activity compared to Manchester. Both those things have not always been the case and they should not necessarily always be the case in the future. Central government and Whitehall deciding it will, will make it a reality. There's a name for that - managed decline, And it stinks.

Liverpool should have a level playing field with Manchester, Leeds and all the other 'in' cities that are considered worthy to have BBC regional newsrooms, government offices etc.

 

[WatcherZero]

So your suggesting build infrastructure it doesnt need because at somepoint in the future its long term decline may reverse? Simple answer is just to build that infrastructure in the future rather than wasting money now on what will be a tight budget. You dont believe HS2 will be set in stone for a century do you? cities will boom and bust, small alterations will be made to route and capacity, spurs and new lines will be built. Projects need to make a return on their investment over their lifetime, if at present Liverpool wouldnt support that maybe in the future it will. Maybe in 30 years time we will get a proposal for a new high speed East-west route linking just the core cities and it will make sense to connect Liverpool directly to HS2 then with a full speed link to London running right to the centre of the city.

 

[TUC]

Yeah, as that's only for journeys wholly within Greater Manchester, it's of no use for those travelling from further afield who want to go into the city centre or if their journey requires transfer between Picc & Vic.

That seems pretty much in line with what bus fares cost these days. When you said "overpriced", I thought you meant a fiver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No mention of either route on sailrail.co.uk - in fact that seems to be hosted on the ATW website and only features the Holyhead and Fishguard routes now. Even the Stranraer services are not listed anymore.

If you go to the Scotrail site or the Stena Line site the Strranraer (no Cairnryan) services are still listed.

 

[Gareth]

So your suggesting build infrastructure it doesnt need because at somepoint in the future its long term decline may reverse? Simple answer is just to build that infrastructure in the future rather than wasting money now on what will be a tight budget. You dont believe HS2 will be set in stone for a century do you? cities will boom and bust, small alterations will be made to route and capacity, spurs and new lines will be built. Projects need to make a return on their investment over their lifetime, if at present Liverpool wouldnt support that maybe in the future it will. Maybe in 30 years time we will get a proposal for a new high speed East-west route linking just the core cities and it will make sense to connect Liverpool directly to HS2 then with a full speed link to London running right to the centre of the city.

Liverpool being given a decent connection decades will be elementry as the city will have shrunken into the small provincial town in the western part of Greater Manchester that a lot of people on here already think it is. It will not be able to overturn such a handcap. The distortion of the airports in this part of the country was bad enough for Liverpool. This will be worse.

And your logic is very English and very Whitehall. It is the very same logic that has denied the north of England as a whole decent investment in infrastructure over the years, as it's always been a safer investment to put that money into the South East instead. This is why the north of England is not only miles behind the south of England but also East Germany, which was way behind northern England before unification but is now way ahead because of appropriate investment in infrastructure.

 

[tbtc]

There are plenty of places that won't get a HS2 link to/from London - Liverpool is getting HS2 services (albeit not wholly on "High Speed" track). Yet this is Liverpool being discriminated against.

I'm realistic enough to accept that South Yorkshire probably wouldn't get a HS2 service if it wasn't on the way to Leeds (I'm still unconvinced that there'll be a station anywhere near central Sheffield, I expect somewhere out near the M1 at Tinsley on the Rotherham border). But then Sheffield (like Liverpool) doesn't have the business/ financial/ First Class market that Leeds (and Manchester) has.

HS2 is designed to meet demand, not some social experiment to redress years of problems.

 

[Nym]

Thing is though, without tunnelling or demolishing housing I can't see a clear route shaddowing the M1 with a station at Tindsley. You always run into some housing or need a tight corner, unlike Nunnery Sq where you'd just need a tincey bit of new viaduct and no property destruction.

 

[Bevan Price]

If you can get Manchester CTLZ tickets which allow free Metrolink travel in the city centre on local journeys to Manchester, I can't see why you shouldn't be able to get something similar for a short light rail ride from South Parkway.



£1.80 single when I used it last year so I'd assume it's probably £1.90 single by now.

Arriva buses charge a flat fare of £1.90 for any distance within the Liverpool area. It has been suggested that this originated to counter the actions of a sizeable minority of people "over-riding" , i.e. travelling beyond the point for which they had paid their fare. Outside Liverpool, fares still vary according to distance, and some seem expensive compared with other cities (apart from London) - £2 or more for about 2 miles.

 

[Holly]

There are plenty of places that won't get a HS2 link to/from London - Liverpool is getting HS2 services (albeit not wholly on "High Speed" track). Yet this is Liverpool being discriminated against.
HS2 is designed to meet demand, not some social experiment to redress years of problems.

The issue is not that Liverpool will not get an HS2 line. The issue is whether Liverpool bound trains from London leave HS2 at the optimal place (optimal for Liverpool that is) - i.e. Weaver Junction (7 miles South of Warrington); or near Lichfield. The difference in journey time is immense.

It is not a matter of social experiment, it is a matter of politics. Liverpool and its environs still have political muscle enough to ensure a better deal than a Lichfield connection would offer.

 

[WatcherZero]

This reminds me of the recent flurry of letters in Welsh papers complaining that since the wires stop at Cardiff West Wales would be losing out economically to the South West of England because they were getting through routes.

 

[northwichcat]

Arriva buses charge a flat fare of £1.90 for any distance within the Liverpool area. It has been suggested that this originated to counter the actions of a sizeable minority of people "over-riding" , i.e. travelling beyond the point for which they had paid their fare. Outside Liverpool, fares still vary according to distance, and some seem expensive compared with other cities (apart from London) - £2 or more for about 2 miles.

I don't know why they don't have an exception for the 501 service. One fare for Liverpool City Centre - the standard single which would be the same as the 500 service and a reduced fare for South Parkway or maybe offer a reduced fare for people having a rail ticket to/from South Parkway - which are available for sale at Liverpool Airport for people visiting Liverpool.