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Rail in the North conference

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northwichcat

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If anyone's interested:

'Rail in the North' will be of interest to any individual, company or community organisation that relies on efficient rail travel across key towns and cities in the north of England, or wishes to promote rail travel as a mode of choice in the future. Developers, retailers, commuters, families, passengers, consultants, students and train-spotters - all are welcome to attend this free event.

Wednesday 15 Feb 2012 9:30 - 12:00.

The Liner at Liverpool Hotel
Britannic Suite I
Lord Nelson Street
Liverpool

http://www.liverpoolchamber.org.uk/events.html?eventID=2854
 
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Nym

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You could not be as a result of the outcome of this conference ;) heh...

I would go, but alas, I have to hold a meeting with a bunch of idiots that morning...
 

Nym

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You're meeting DfT that morning? :D

Nope, my team for Interdiciplinary Sustainable Development :(

They don't seem to understand, "We're writing this report for stupid people (Company Directors)"

And my meeting with a transport govermentey people is next week ;)
 

Max

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I would have been interested by why hold it in Liverpool? A more central location like Leeds or Sheffield would make more sense.
 

bluenoxid

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You could not be as a result of the outcome of this conference ;) heh...

I would go, but alas, I have to hold a meeting with a bunch of idiots that morning...

Only if the train company would mind half a van/estate on the trains. Could clean and fix the lights.
 

TUC

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If anyone's interested:

'Rail in the North' will be of interest to any individual, company or community organisation that relies on efficient rail travel across key towns and cities in the north of England, or wishes to promote rail travel as a mode of choice in the future. Developers, retailers, commuters, families, passengers, consultants, students and train-spotters - all are welcome to attend this free event.

Wednesday 15 Feb 2012 9:30 - 12:00.

The Liner at Liverpool Hotel
Britannic Suite I
Lord Nelson Street
Liverpool

http://www.liverpoolchamber.org.uk/events.html?eventID=2854

Who's williing to bet that at the conference 'North' isn't regarded as anywhere further than Liverpool to Leeds?;)
 

northwichcat

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The first Network Rail map is also misleading as it makes it looks like there is one station in Warrington.
 

Gareth

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Where do you expect the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce to hold a conference?

Manchester, obviously.

The attitude towards Liverpool in this forum is quite bizarre. From the city being seen as only significant enough to have rail services for a city the fraction of its size to holding a conference on its own initiative.

Was going to go to this conference but couldn't make it, sadly, as I would've been interested in what was said.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I went to this.
It was mostly a brief to local businesses and local government to support the Northern Hub and other local/regional rail investment in the HLOS/CP5 round.
Three local MPs (Maria Eagle, Esther McVey, Louise Ellman), all with transport briefs in the Commons, spoke very well about supporting the Northern Hub, HS2 and the HLOS process, and knew their stuff.

There were short presentations by NR, Northern, Freightliner and Peel Ports about local investment.
Apart from rail the focus was on the Atlantic Gateway (upgrading the port infrastructure to capture more international traffic).
I didn't learn anything knew that couldn't have been gleaned from other sources, but it was interesting to hear the slant that non-railway public and private interests had.

Typically, the questions from the floor were rather odd-ball and difficult for the panel to answer. Like when will the Liverpool-Ormskirk-Preston service be improved, or why has Manchester got HS2 and we have nothing.
An ex-BR engineer said Northern Hub wouldn't work without more through platforms at Manchester Victoria.
The rep from Warrington Council said he wanted to support the proposals, but Northern Hub would deprive them of connectivity to the North-East, and Port Salford would cause huge traffic jams in Warrington with the canal swing-bridges forever opening for the new barge traffic.

Of the politicians, Maria Eagle thought she was in the Commons and gave a party speech on why Labour would be doing different/better.
Esther McVey gave an impressive rallying cry for Liverpool to overtake the south-east in port traffic.
And Louise Ellman told everybody in her quiet way that the time to lobby MPs in favour of these schemes was now, as there was real danger of cuts to the Northern Hub plans in the CP5 round.
The politicians seem to take it as read that devolution of rail budgets would be coming in the new white paper - cue battles between Manchester and Liverpool (not to mention Leeds and Newcastle) over spending priorities.

The only north-east representation I could detect was from a group called "Mytholmroyd Station Partnership"!
Another pair of delegates were from: "FF Commercial Cleaning and Feather Flickers" (they were the ones complaining about Ormskirk-Preston).
Otherwise it was mainly local councils, chambers of commerce across the north-west, consultants (eg Arup) and some rail user groups (eg North/Mid-Cheshire).

The final question was predictably why had it cost £423 FC return to get to the conference from London. "You can get to Dubai for that".
Cue much squirming from the panel.

At one level, it was just a Liverpool lobby group having its say (eg you could feel them wince whenever Manchester Airport was mentioned).
But at another level it served to motivate local business and government to support rail in the next funding round.
Certainly worth the cost of attendance (free!).
 

Gareth

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So Maria Eagle, Esther McVey, Louise Ellman all came out in support of HS2 without any reservations whatsoever?

The two questions I'd have liked to have asked would've been...

1. Why's it deemed acceptable for Liverpool to be given a far slower link to London (and Birmingham) than Manchester, despite the relative partity that exists today and why isn't this huge competitive handicap seen as a problem by the DfT, HS2 or the local politicians?

2. As the Northern Hub will make Liverpool South Parkway much less accessible from the east (and thus, much of northern England), are there any plans for a proper airport station with links to both Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street to remedy this situation? Again, if this is not seen as a problem, why not?

Did anyone ask anything remotely in the vain of those two questions? If so, can you remember any of the answers. I'd be most grateful if you can.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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So Maria Eagle, Esther McVey, Louise Ellman all came out in support of HS2 without any reservations whatsoever?

The two questions I'd have liked to have asked would've been...

1. Why's it deemed acceptable for Liverpool to be given a far slower link to London (and Birmingham) than Manchester, despite the relative partity that exists today and why isn't this huge competitive handicap seen as a problem by the DfT, HS2 or the local politicians?

2. As the Northern Hub will make Liverpool South Parkway much less accessible from the east (and thus, much of northern England), are there any plans for a proper airport station with links to both Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street to remedy this situation? Again, if this is not seen as a problem, why not?

Did anyone ask anything remotely in the vain of those two questions? If so, can you remember any of the answers. I'd be most grateful if you can.

1. There was certainly strong interest in a direct HS2 link, but in truth the audience was not that clued up on the route planning.
Maria Eagle kept on about the latest DfT brief being to "slow" the Liverpool connection by 10 minutes (using the classic line from Lichfield).
But the politicians know they can't promise particular routes and simply suggested lobbying MPs before the route was announced.
Arup people (who are doing the route for DfT) listened but said nothing.

There was some comment about whether the upcoming Liverpool City Mayor will be able to make a difference (like Boris does for London), but the politicians thought not because he would represent just the city, not the region.

2. The only real comment about isolating the CLC route came from the Warrington people as I mentioned. Speke Airport people (I can't bring myself to call it J**n L****n) were there but said nothing.
Sometimes the Northern Hub seems to be about getting Yorkshire folk to Manchester Airport (Bradford and Halifax kept getting mentioned).

As the delegates drifted off to their cars I got the feeling they were paying lip service to rail, and just wanted a tick in the box called local investment.
A Sefton councillor described the docks railway link as "a disgrace", much to the bemusement of Peel and Freightliner who had just been saying how successful it was.
Loads of disconnects here.

Hope this helps.
 

northwichcat

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1. Why's it deemed acceptable for Liverpool to be given a far slower link to London (and Birmingham) than Manchester, despite the relative partity that exists today and why isn't this huge competitive handicap seen as a problem by the DfT, HS2 or the local politicians?

That would have been outside the scope of the Northern Hub project with plans a lot less advanced than those for TPE, Ordsall Chord, increasing frequencies of local trains etc.

2. As the Northern Hub will make Liverpool South Parkway much less accessible from the east (and thus, much of northern England), are there any plans for a proper airport station with links to both Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street to remedy this situation? Again, if this is not seen as a problem, why not?

There are plans for a light rail line between the Albert Dock and Liverpool Airport via Liverpool South Parkway but the plans are in an early stage of development. Hopefully they would then allow people with rail tickets for Liverpool South Parkway to travel on the light rail to Liverpool Airport at no extra cost, which would be a vast improvement on the overpriced Arriva bus.

As the plans are for light rail, this again would be outside the scope of the Northern Hub.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A Sefton councillor described the docks railway link as "a disgrace", much to the bemusement of Peel and Freightliner who had just been saying how successful it was.

Is that the same line that was supposed to get a passenger service funded by Liverpool FC, if they moved to a new larger stadium at Stanley Park?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Is that the same line that was supposed to get a passenger service funded by Liverpool FC, if they moved to a new larger stadium at Stanley Park?

Yes, that's the one, the Bootle branch.
His grumble was that it is single into the docks and that is a major constraint.
The Peel/Freightliner view was it was OK except for lack of W12 clearance.
The Seaforth (Peel) development would pay for this but the Sefton people wanted gauge clearance and doubling to happen for current traffic.
 

tbtc

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The two questions I'd have liked to have asked would've been...

1. Why's it deemed acceptable for Liverpool to be given a far slower link to London (and Birmingham) than Manchester, despite the relative partity that exists today and why isn't this huge competitive handicap seen as a problem by the DfT, HS2 or the local politicians?

The question I'd have liked asked would be why Liverpool is always comparing itself to Manchester.

For example I've seen grumbles from Scousers about the money spent on "Manchester" things like the Northern Hub (which ignores the fact that Liverpool will see the lines to both Manchester Victoria and Wigan electrified, which is expected to mean a restoration of the Liverpool - Glasgow/Edinburgh service).

The reasons why Manchester Piccadilly is a more attractive market for more/faster direct trains into central London than Liverpool Lime Street is have been well documented on here.
 

swt_passenger

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The reasons why Manchester Piccadilly is a more attractive market for more/faster direct trains into central London than Liverpool Lime Street is have been well documented on here.

It isn't home to anything like as many whingeing scousers, that's the main reason...
 

Ivo

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Manchester is better located for connections to pretty much everywhere outside of Merseyside, not just London. Do they ever consider this? I have to say though, if Manchester can justify a 4th Pendo to Euston per hour, as has been discussed recently, surely the level of demand for Liverpool to have a 2nd would exceed that? I'm not going to blatantly state that it is necessary, but from a demand perspective it does seem to work out.

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if they could run Pendos via 13/14 at Piccadilly and fast to Lime Street though - unless Liverpudlians then claim it isn't fair that they have to pass through Manchester to reach London? :lol:

Mind you, having an idiot for an MP certainly doesn't help. As much as I like Liverpool, as long as her lot are in power I shan't be moving there.
 

northwichcat

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The question I'd have liked asked would be why Liverpool is always comparing itself to Manchester.

Because Manchester is 30 miles away and similar in size.

Manchester has population of 498,800 while Liverpool has a population of 445,200.

The total number of people who travel to the 4 stations in Central Liverpool is 37.1 million journeys per annum, while the 4 stations in Central Manchester gets 32.9 million per annum.

Seems fair to compare for the number of trains and destinations reached from Manchester compared with that of Liverpool.

Now the difference is the area around Manchester is more highly populated than that of Liverpool so stations like Stockport have a lot more passengers than stations like Runcorn. However, that does not mean that all trains that serve Greater Manchester have to go in to Manchester city centre. The open access proposals for a service between Yorkshire and Stockport avoiding Manchester put forward a good case, especially with Huddersfield's links south of the town being poor, TPE services very crowded and the Mersey viaduct being at full capacity at peak times.
 

WestCoast

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The question I'd have liked asked would be why Liverpool is always comparing itself to Manchester.

Same here! Liverpool is just not the same RAIL market as Manchester, due to geographical location which means that it's less useful as a connection point for most of the North West than Manchester.
 

AlterEgo

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The final question was predictably why had it cost £423 FC return to get to the conference from London. "You can get to Dubai for that".
Cue much squirming from the panel.

The answer being "Because you haven't booked in advance". :roll:
 

tbtc

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Because Manchester is 30 miles away and similar in size.

Manchester has population of 498,800 while Liverpool has a population of 445,200.

The total number of people who travel to the 4 stations in Central Liverpool is 37.1 million journeys per annum, while the 4 stations in Central Manchester gets 32.9 million per annum.

Seems fair to compare for the number of trains and destinations reached from Manchester compared with that of Liverpool.

Now the difference is the area around Manchester is more highly populated than that of Liverpool so stations like Stockport have a lot more passengers than stations like Runcorn. However, that does not mean that all trains that serve Greater Manchester have to go in to Manchester city centre. The open access proposals for a service between Yorkshire and Stockport avoiding Manchester put forward a good case, especially with Huddersfield's links south of the town being poor, TPE services very crowded and the Mersey viaduct being at full capacity at peak times.

Its apples and oranges though.

For a start, the "population" figures you've quoted need to be qualified, there will always be arguments about the urban boundaries and how they effect rail deamand.

Secondly, the 37.1 million journeys per annum at the four stations in Central Liverpool will include a significant number from the frequent Merseyrail services that stay almost wholly within Merseyside (the short stretch beyond the boundaries to Chester excepted). Manchester doesn't have that level of "local" trains (which is why the idea of keeping certain classes within its boundaries wouldn't work), but does have the most extensive tram system in the UK. To count the local Merseyrail traffic but not count Metrolink isn't comparing like with like.

Thirdly, as has been pointed out before, much of Merseyside wouldn't use Lime Street (or Runcorn) for journeys to/from London, whilst a greater share of Greater Manchester *would* use Piccadilly (or Stockport). So its not fair to compare London demand to/from Lime Street with London demand to/from Piccadilly.

Lastly, the geography of Manchester means that it is a hub for a lot of other services, whilst Liverpool (being stuck on the coast) isn't. Its a bit like comparing the 263,900 people in Hull with the 290,600 people in Doncaster (figures taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population). Doncaster will always have a better train service than Hull because its en route to lots of places.
 

northwichcat

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Lastly, the geography of Manchester means that it is a hub for a lot of other services, whilst Liverpool (being stuck on the coast) isn't. Its a bit like comparing the 263,900 people in Hull with the 290,600 people in Doncaster (figures taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population). Doncaster will always have a better train service than Hull because its en route to lots of places.

If my comparison of Manchester and Liverpool is Apples and Pears, yours of Doncaster and Hull is Coconuts and Pears.

Doncaster is on the mainline between London/Birmingham and the North East. All trains from London and Birmingham which go to Manchester terminate there. The only non-local through services at Manchester are TPE/EMT services to Liverpool and Manchester Airport. The Liverpool services are obviously irrelevant when comparing Liverpool to Manchester and the Manchester Airport services are the ones you've been highly critical of in your previous posts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's quite some hope!

If you can get Manchester CTLZ tickets which allow free Metrolink travel in the city centre on local journeys to Manchester, I can't see why you shouldn't be able to get something similar for a short light rail ride from South Parkway.

How much does the bus cost?

£1.80 single when I used it last year so I'd assume it's probably £1.90 single by now.
 
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