A question for the steam experts

[89-763-733]

Can anyone identify who operated the loco in the attached picture. It is a 4-4-0 number 57 and the clip was in one of Portillo's Irish programmes but it is not necessarily an Irish loco

 

[dubscottie]

It does look like a Great North of Scotland loco however I am almost 100% sure that is Connolly shed in the background. Maybe a MGWR loco?

 

[89-763-733]

Sensible suggestion but MGWR never had a 4-4-0 number 57 (first was an 0-4-2 second an 0-6-0)

Number would fit with a GNOSR 4-4-0 later LNER class D45

 

[The Decapod]

To my eye, in the first pic the track gauge looks wider than 'standard' - indicating that the scene is indeed in Ireland, with its 5ft 3ins gauge.

 

[Bevan Price]

If it is Irish, then J.W.P. Rowledge' book "Irish Steam Loco Register" lists two 4-4-0's that carried the number 57.

Firstly, GS&WR no. 57 built 1888. retained same number when taken over by GSR and then CIE. (GS&WR Class 52, CIE Class D17, withdrawn 1957). Only photo of the class shows type as later fitted with Belpaire boiler and it looks bigger than the loco in the photo from the Portillo programme.

Secondly, Dublin, Wicklow & Wexford R. / Dublin & South Eastern R. no. 57, built 1896 by Vulcan Foundry, became GS&WR no. 452, withdrawn 1933. No photo of type in the book.

 

[dubscottie]

If it is Irish, then J.W.P. Rowledge' book "Irish Steam Loco Register" lists two 4-4-0's that carried the number 57.

Firstly, GS&WR no. 57 built 1888. retained same number when taken over by GSR and then CIE. (GS&WR Class 52, CIE Class D17, withdrawn 1957). Only photo of the class shows type as later fitted with Belpaire boiler and it looks bigger than the loco in the photo from the Portillo programme.

Secondly, Dublin, Wicklow & Wexford R. / Dublin & South Eastern R. no. 57, built 1896 by Vulcan Foundry, became GS&WR no. 452, withdrawn 1933. No photo of type in the book.

I have been looking at my books trying to work out what the stock in the background is.. However the more I look it could also be a 4-2-2.. Going by the large splasher..
Could you find out how many No 57's there was?

 

[4SRKT]

It definitely looks like 5'3" gauge track, but I don't think 4-2-2s were a common type in Ireland at all. Can anyon identify the location? I can't but that's a very distinctive roof shape in the background.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have been looking at my books trying to work out what the stock in the background is.. However the more I look it could also be a 4-2-2.. Going by the large splasher..
Could you find out how many No 57's there was?

Since my first post, I have seen in another book a photo of what appears to an unrebuilt Class 52 4-4-0, and it looks fairly similar to the photo posted.

Other Irish no. 57 locos that I found in the Rowledge Book are:

Northern Railway 57, 0-4-2 , same number with (Irish) Great Northern Railway (GNR) until 1896, then renumbered 102; originated as Irish North Western Railway no. 15, built 1861, withdrawn 1907.

GNR no. 57, 0-6-0, built 1895; passed to CIE

Belfast & Northern Counties R. no. 57, 2-4-0, built 1895; passed to Midland Railway & then LMS Northern Counties Committee (NCC); fitted with larger boiler 1931, withdrawn 1938.

Waterford, Limerick & Western R. no.57, 0-6-0, built 1897; became GS&WR no. 238 in 1901

Midland Great Western R. no. 57, 0-4-2, built 1863, withdrawn 1885.

MGWR no. 57 (second), 0-6-0, built 1885; became GSR/GSWR/CIE no. 596

 

[caliwag]

Cat among the pigeons time.

I agree the shed should give a good clue, but being corrugated steel in damp old Ireland, I don't think it would have lasted long. With the GNSR lead, it does look like the location of Loch gorm works relative to the platform.

However in those days (pre 1923) GNSR didn't have any 4-4-0s that looked like that.

It is though an exact match of an NBR class M (D31 in '47 renumbering etc). The D31s (3 separate batches make up the class) had 6'6" drivers, high splashers and the lower con-rod clearance covers, next the running plate.

The funnel is very NBR too, flowering slightly upwards and capped with a strengthening collar and cap rim. I can only guess at the numbering. 57 would have become 9*57 as 9000 was added to the front of NBR locos in 1923. Come the post war renumbering, in readiness for nationalisation it would've become 2057 (had it suvived as the class started in January 1947 with 2059)...just as A4 2500 became number 1.

It was a logical system based on wheel arrangement it seems.

So for what is's worth, that's what I think. As for location, well anywhere in Scotland's glorious rust belt, presumably pre 1923.

I'm indebted to the fantastic LNER encyclopedia and forum, Wikipedia, and especially 'Locomotives of the LNER'...a pictorial record by Wethersett and Asher 1947.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK...There was a D33 numbered 57. Reid design, just after Holmes. Presumably improved from D31s as they lasted well into the 50s. Re-boilered as required, which would account for the fact that the one in the picture doesn't look too much like a Glen (D34).

 

[dubscottie]

Cat among the pigeons time.

I agree the shed should give a good clue, but being corrugated steel in damp old Ireland, I don't think it would have lasted long. With the GNSR lead, it does look like the location of Loch gorm works relative to the platform.

However in those days (pre 1923) GNSR didn't have any 4-4-0s that looked like that.

It is though an exact match of an NBR class M (D31 in '47 renumbering etc). The D31s (3 separate batches make up the class) had 6'6" drivers, high splashers and the lower con-rod clearance covers, next the running plate.

The funnel is very NBR too, flowering slightly upwards and capped with a strengthening collar and cap rim. I can only guess at the numbering. 57 would have become 9*57 as 9000 was added to the front of NBR locos in 1923. Come the post war renumbering, in readiness for nationalisation it would've become 2057 (had it suvived as the class started in January 1947 with 2059)...just as A4 2500 became number 1.

It was a logical system based on wheel arrangement it seems.

So for what is's worth, that's what I think. As for location, well anywhere in Scotland's glorious rust belt, presumably pre 1923.

I'm indebted to the fantastic LNER encyclopedia and forum, Wikipedia, and especially 'Locomotives of the LNER'...a pictorial record by Wethersett and Asher 1947.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK...There was a D33 numbered 57. Reid design, just after Holmes. Presumably improved from D31s as they lasted well into the 50s. Re-boilered as required, which would account for the fact that the one in the picture doesn't look too much like a Glen (D34).

Looking at the only NBR book I own there are two things which point to it not being a NBR loco..
99% of NBR trains were air braked and locos had a compressor on the righthand side. The one in the pic does not.
The second one, that I spotted just now is the handle on the smokebox door definitely looks Irish, being round as opposed to the two handle type seen in the UK.

 

[4SRKT]

Looking at the only NBR book I own there are two things which point to it not being a NBR loco..
99% of NBR trains were air braked and locos had a compressor on the righthand side. The one in the pic does not.
The second one, that I spotted just now is the handle on the smokebox door definitely looks Irish, being round as opposed to the two handle type seen in the UK.

Although round smokebox door handles were common enough in Scotland as well.

 

[caliwag]

OK, I concede the issue of the ring smokebox door handle, though as has been pointed out, they were not uncommon in Scotland. Given that the photo must be late 19th, early 20th centuries, boiler changes and their fittings must have varied considerably...interesting point though.

As for air break kit, I have several photos of NBR D class locos with no such fittings, again early 20th century.

It is a shame we cannot see the cab-side in more clarity as that would have concluded 'country' as Irish locos carried cast cab-side numbers.

There's a fantastic photographic collection of Irish locomotives care of 'smug mug'...sorry cannot post link, but google. The nearest loco class to the one on the photo is Irish D15, even then there detail differences around the boiler.

Suspect we'll only bottom this one out when someone recognises the tin shed construction!

Intriguing stuff though!

 

[dubscottie]

Found it!!!
Its A Dublin Wicklow & Wexford Railway loco.. Click on link and the pic of No 58 is at the bottom..

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/searc...type=images&filter=1207133690-4&radio_filter=

Trawling through books I suspect the shed could be Wexford although looking for better pic..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yup Wexford.. The video is on this page!!

http://www.seewexford.com/wexford-railway.html

 

[caliwag]

HoHo, brilliant research. All seems to fit into place.

Will sleep easy now. Next?

 

[89-763-733]

Many thanks for the useful discussion and the solution