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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-16965343
Sounds like 2N42 16:43 Hexham to Middlesbrough by Northern. I assume this is most likely a Class 156.
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Football Hooligans - AGAIN
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-16965343
Sounds like 2N42 16:43 Hexham to Middlesbrough by Northern. I assume this is most likely a Class 156.
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Badger
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Not particularly looking forward to Saturday, Wolves v West Brom, the Metro will be a no-go area pretty much.
It's just daft - this sort of thing is largely out of (drunkern) patriotism for their team - and when it's a local derby it's their own town/city they're hurting either way.
It's just daft - this sort of thing is largely out of (drunkern) patriotism for their team - and when it's a local derby it's their own town/city they're hurting either way.
Badger
Member
Indeed, but since the thread specifically talks about "football hooligans" and not a blanket "football fans" I think it's excused. 
Royston Vasey
Established Member
Indefensible minority of morons. I gather some of those packed onto the train were having breathing difficulties though - it was dangerously crowded. The cancellation in Hartlepool and subsequent confusion (and the passengers being forced to remain on the train) then exacerbated matters. The police had also told fans in Sunderland pubs to get the 17.50 rather than the 17.15, which was full but there was no trouble, even at the Middlesbrough end.
The teenage kid who kicked out the window is being rightly vilified by the law abiding majority on other forums
The teenage kid who kicked out the window is being rightly vilified by the law abiding majority on other forums
This is undeniably true. However, I do wonder whether those who contribute to incidents like these would do similar things away from a football environment. A huge mass of people, encouraged in many ways to think "them and us", segregated to become even more "tribal", coralled by extended policing.......sounds like a recipe for trouble to me.
spurs4life
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The problem is you are always going to get people who are going to cause trouble, what ever sport or event you go too. I've been going to Tottenham games home and away for twenty years and only had any trouble three times. So to say its "them and us" is just not true in my experience
Forgive me, but I've been to an Indoor Bowls tournament in the past, nobody kicked off there. Also last year an event I went to was County Show, very civilised and not a sniff of trouble, even around the cider and beer tents.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
I think poor police advice and handling is probably part of it. Apparently the Pass Comm was pulled en route and the train paused but continued. On arrival at Hartlepool police and replacement coaches were already waiting. The police then decided to retain passengers on board, before then shifting them to another train rather than the replacement buses. The police attitudes has been called into question when there were passengers in need of medical attention.
There's a lot of history with Sunderland AFC and Northumbria Police, whose inept, cowardly and overofficious policing of local football games is renowned. Cleveland in this case are a little better, but Northumbria officers instructed people in pubs in Sunderland to get the 17.50 (presumably to get them all on one train for easier policing). The Newcastle Central debacle a couple of years ago being one that the Football Supporters Federation have sought answers from NP.
That said, there's some shameful things happened on that train. I usually stick up for fans, especially Sunderland fans, but I can't believe some of the damage that was caused by a few. A staff member is reported to have a broken rib, can anyone confirm? As well as the window, light fittings were broken and people were urinating on the floors (possibly partly due to being trapped for so long)
Apparently a Newcastle train was eventually taken out of service and taken back to Middlesbrough to convey the passengers instead.
Source: other forums, Sunderland Echo.
I understood that the train was to be doubled up specially, perhaps this didn't happen? It usually does, before the "wheres the stock coming from" replies come pouring in. The police and Northern would have known for ten days this was happening. It should never have come to this!
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Well, considering that they're from Sunderland I'm not in the least bit suprised. S'land is a city of wrong'uns (not everyone, but a significant proportion
Sunderland fan is almost an oxymoron, so many are hooligans it's a fair assumption that the lot are. Still, that's Mackems (Sunderland people/charvers) for you - they all need to be locked up for what they have done and will do given half a chance.
Utterly ridiculous and offensive post.
@Royston Vasey - Sunderland is the back-hole (to put it politely) of the whole North-East region. I was at home barely ten miles away from Sunderland and in the Wear valley when I posted that and I would dare to say that Northumbria Police have got it right for once. FYI I have plenty of experience of Sunderland and I don't feel safe there, doubly so last time I stumbled on a match day. Never mind that a mackem once stole my SLR, I have felt safer in some of the rougher parts of Manchester :eek:
PS I don't take football as seriously as I used to, but I know what Sunderland "fans" are capable of once the inevitable alcohol kicks in, usually drunk before boarding the train.
PS I don't take football as seriously as I used to, but I know what Sunderland "fans" are capable of once the inevitable alcohol kicks in, usually drunk before boarding the train.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
Not really mate. Unsafe?? Don't be silly. As for Mackems, there are several depressed areas in the NE, and there are bad apples in all of them. Newcastle fans (as an example) are capable of smashing up their own city centre after losing a cup final.
I'm quite disappointed that a fellow North Easterner would slag off their own like that. When you leave the area, you realise people aren't so different town to town. Perhaps you're young and have yet to see in perpective.
spoony
Member
I can confirm this I myself travelled to the match on the 17.15, although I boarded in Newcastle as I work there. There was absolutely no bother at all even though a lot of people had had a fair bit to drink. Everything was all very good natured. At Boro we were escorted to the ground and safely into the away end. Luckily for us we decided against the later train or would have been caught up in the trouble. Personally I think the person who kicked the window out is utter scum, however the police do not help themselves by treating fans as utter scum and basically admitted they totally underestimated the number of fans who would travel by train as there was no return service that night. For myself, we did not get the free buses down because going down they are always an absolute joke, around 1h45 to get there travelling around 20mph down the A19.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, considering that they're from Sunderland I'm not in the least bit suprised. S'land is a city of wrong'uns (not everyone, but a significant proportion
Sunderland fan is almost an oxymoron, so many are hooligans it's a fair assumption that the lot are. Still, that's Mackems (Sunderland people/charvers) for you - they all need to be locked up for what they have done and will do given half a chance.
Very offensive post but ill take it as you trying to be clever.
spoony
Member
I would say its a combination of alcohol and the police being very heavy handed on a ram packed train because their intelligence got it spectacularly wrong lastnight. On the early train there was a heavy police presence but everyone got on fine, even with the Boro fans who got on later on. Thats probably because we were treated like adults, most of the carriage had a couple of cans but the difference for me is that probably we had space to move and breathe. Ive seen photos of the later train and it looks a lot worse than the tube at rush hour. Thats not to make excuses for people mind.
Butts
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Top post.
Horrid for the staff and lets hope these idiots are caught and banged up. You can see why, when the majority of fans who just want to get to a match complain at no trains on Boxing Days, or no services which let them get back in time from evening kick-offs, TOCs are more than reticent to alter service patterns to suit this
Guess that is why a unID'ed (no number) copper shoved me to the ground for stopping to tie my shoe lace when walking back to the station from Crystal Palace's ground last year screaming "KEEP MOVING".
12CSVT
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It would seem that the only solution to prevent a repeat whenever these clubs play each other in the future is for the away club to provide road coaches directly to the ground (stictly alcohol free and under police escort) and for all away supporters to be compelled to use them if they wish to attend the game. I believe this is the case whenever Cardiff and Swansea play each other.
My fullest sympathy goes to all the other passengers (ie those not travelling to the match) who unwittingly ended up in a train full of yobs.
My fullest sympathy goes to all the other passengers (ie those not travelling to the match) who unwittingly ended up in a train full of yobs.
BestWestern
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You are absolutely spot on. This same tactic was also used recently when Portsmouth played Southampton, another fixture which has an ugly history of pathetic knuckle-dragging degenerates in need of one-way tickets to somewhere other than a football ground. Coaches in, coaches out, no trouble. Amazingly, despite it being common knowledge that carnage usually reigns at these matches, there were the inevitable moans from fans that it 'wasnt fair', what a shame for them :roll:
The simple fact is that it's high time that EVERY away ticket for EVERY league football match came with a seat on a chartered coach, at the club's expense. Public transport, and the railway in particular, shouldn't have to keep putting up with these idiotic people who cause so much grief for everybody else. The level of violence, disorder and general offence to other people on a regular basis is simply unacceptable, and it's time it was brought to a sharp stop. It might be a minority, but it's too large a minority to ignore, and if the decent fans have a problem with tight policing then it's their fellow supporters/yobs they need to be taking it up with, not those who have to go out there and keep the lot of them under control. A football match is, ultimately, of no importance or value to society. The continued resigned acceptance that this shambles is 'just what happens' on match days desperately needs reviewing. If they can afford to spend obscene sums of cash on spoilt players then they can afford to sort out their own bl**dy transport arrangements!
what a load of rubbish. So now because I live in london I also have to purchase a coach ticket from Newcastle for every game they play in London? What about when we go to the other cities? Why should I have to purchase a coach ticket then?
Its a small minority who cause bother - Just like your average drunks who ruin peoples journies at all other times.
get a grip will you and stop trying to punish the majority for the actions of a few:roll:
BestWestern
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Ahem, ..."at the club's expense..." Frankly, I don't care how you get there, just so long as I don't have a trainload of your mates making a nuisance of themselves. The problem is with the football lot, it's up to them to deal with it, nobody else should feel remotely obliged to put up with it. Groups of hooligans are far, far worse than any "average drunks". Try telling anybody who's ever been stuck on a train full of pi**ed up, fighting, threatening 'fans' to "get a grip". Presumably if a pack of drunken thugs came to your workplace and kicked your ribs in you'd be OK with that and would just get a grip and crack on?!! It happens far too often, it needs dealing with, properly :roll:
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12CSVT
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So which is the lesser of two 'evils' ?
Football fans being compelled to use charted transport provided by their club directly to the ground whenever they travel to an away match,
or ordinary passengers being subjected to the sort of yobbish behaviour which occured on the train between Sunderland and Middlesbrough the other night whenever a football match takes place ?
Yes I know it is only a minority of football supporters who cause this sort of trouble, but only a minority of train passengers between Sunderland and Middlesbrough are travelling to / from football matches.
Ive been on trains that have had terrible behaviour on them from people who have not been to a football match so I fail to see the difference. The last one in to KX from Glasgow used to always be a bit rowdy most nights that I was on it.
But how do you police it if the clubs actually agreed to this? Whats to stop someone from getting an earlier train or later one home as they 'missed the coach'?
Its generally on the way home that the rowdiness happens so how do you police it and make sure people get back on their chartered services? You cant force people to do what you ask and its up to them if they get on or not.
And again - are you going to force this through and then penalise those of us who do not live in the city/town of the team we support so much that we just stop going because its become so restrictive?
Thats nice. Maybe we should start restricting beer being sold on the trains at all times then so no one can buy or consume alcohol just like on TFL transport - though it should be noted that East coast have said the one back from london this saturday will be a dry train. is that good enough for you?
BestWestern
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A return coach trip included in the standard ticket price would be enough to deflect the vast majority away from public transport. For their part the railways would need to ensure proper revenue protection to ensure those who choose not to travel on their coach do pay for a train ticket. Most people will not pay for something when they can get it for free.
I would have no issue with a ban on alcohol on the railway.
Nobody disputes that it is a 'minority' causing the issue here, but it is a sizable enough minority for it to have become a substantial and regular problem. Ordinary service trains, intended to convey the largely peaceful and well behaved general travelling public, are totally inappropriate for the carriage of large groups of football fans. Nobody expects them all to sit down and read the Telegraph, but their generally loud and very rowdy nature, even the better groups, is not acceptable in that environment. They essentially become uncontrollable, as one Guard on a train cannot be expected to subdue that many people, and will instantly become a target, and the police have no concern for the comfort of regular passengers and will allow them to sing shout and, usually, swear all they like. Why should the general public have to tolerate that? Why should valuable police resources be diverted away from everyday issues to deal with it? These people are attending a football match. The clubs who they support and who bring about the situation are the people rightly placed, and indeed morally obliged, to deal with it. Wider society has no interest or concern in the leisure activities of a minority, nor should they have to bear the cost or the fallout. As for your repeated 'regular drunks' argument, a group of such causing the same level of problems would be met by the police at the earliest opportunity and removed. Try doing that when there's a trainload of them wearing football shirts.
I would have no issue with a ban on alcohol on the railway.
Nobody disputes that it is a 'minority' causing the issue here, but it is a sizable enough minority for it to have become a substantial and regular problem. Ordinary service trains, intended to convey the largely peaceful and well behaved general travelling public, are totally inappropriate for the carriage of large groups of football fans. Nobody expects them all to sit down and read the Telegraph, but their generally loud and very rowdy nature, even the better groups, is not acceptable in that environment. They essentially become uncontrollable, as one Guard on a train cannot be expected to subdue that many people, and will instantly become a target, and the police have no concern for the comfort of regular passengers and will allow them to sing shout and, usually, swear all they like. Why should the general public have to tolerate that? Why should valuable police resources be diverted away from everyday issues to deal with it? These people are attending a football match. The clubs who they support and who bring about the situation are the people rightly placed, and indeed morally obliged, to deal with it. Wider society has no interest or concern in the leisure activities of a minority, nor should they have to bear the cost or the fallout. As for your repeated 'regular drunks' argument, a group of such causing the same level of problems would be met by the police at the earliest opportunity and removed. Try doing that when there's a trainload of them wearing football shirts.
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12CSVT
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It might be a good thing if alcohol was banned on all public transport. (Provided the ban doesn't come into force at midnight on a Friday night like when the TFL alcohol ban came into force).
BestWestern
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Yes, I am generally quite a nice person, thanks!
I have specifically said, several times, that I appreciate the problem lies with a minority. But, again, it is a big enough minority that this has become a serious problem, and it can't simply be ignored. I pay too much for my car insurance because a minority will go out and wrap their car around a tree. Such is life
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