Advance tickets: using other operators when delayed

[hairyhandedfool]

....To my mind, that means that if the 15:15 was delayed, I can get the next train which was the 15:30. As it happens there was no inspection on the 15:30 train so the argument on-board didn't arise, but still it'd be interesting to have that debate...

Furthermore, I was on an East Midlands Parkway to St Pancras recently where there are two departures within five minutes. The earlier booked train was running later and a guy with an advance got on the "wrong" train. Revenue protection told him he'd have to get off and wait for the other train (which should have originally run earlier), but again NRE suggests that once a booked train is running late you are able to get on the next one to destination.

Andy

If you are at the start of your journey (the origin station), a delay to your service must be 60 minutes or more (or the train must be cancelled) before you can use alternative services (this is shown in the advance fares conditions on the NRES website).

If a delay whilst travelling (after you have left the origin station) causes you to miss a connection you can use the next available service to complete your journey.

So, no, you couldn't have used the 1530 without a new ticket if that was your origin station, because the delay to the 1515 was only 40 minutes. Furthermore, you haven't yet missed a connection due to a delay whilst travelling. The same applies for the chap from East Midlands Parkway.

 

[stut]

What happens if, say, you miss a connection due to a delay, the next train isn't for quite some time (e.g. two hours) but there is a (reserved) connection on a different, permitted route, using a different TOC?

A concrete example, which has happened to me, is missing a Peterborough-Ipswich, and wanting to connect via Cambridge (or Norwich, although I'm not sure that's a permitted route). In this case, I approached the XC guard on the next Stansted train, who said I had to travel with "one" (as was).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The TOC would have final say on whether you could use that service. In your case, as the delaying TOC hadn't agreed travel with XC for you, you could not use that service and had to wait.

 

[stut]

The TOC would have final say on whether you could use that service. In your case, as the delaying TOC hadn't agreed travel with XC for you, you could not use that service and had to wait.

Well, I asked the delaying TOC (NXEC as was) who shrugged and said they didn't know, just get the next train. I asked the XC guard who shrugged and said he didn't know, so wouldn't accept it. So there wasn't much question of agreement or otherwise at the time...

 

[Kryten2340]

....To my mind, that means that if the 15:15 was delayed, I can get the next train which was the 15:30. As it happens there was no inspection on the 15:30 train so the argument on-board didn't arise, but still it'd be interesting to have that debate...

Furthermore, I was on an East Midlands Parkway to St Pancras recently where there are two departures within five minutes. The earlier booked train was running later and a guy with an advance got on the "wrong" train. Revenue protection told him he'd have to get off and wait for the other train (which should have originally run earlier), but again NRE suggests that once a booked train is running late you are able to get on the next one to destination.

Andy

If you are at the start of your journey (the origin station), a delay to your service must be 60 minutes or more (or the train must be cancelled) before you can use alternative services (this is shown in the advance fares conditions on the NRES website).

If a delay whilst travelling (after you have left the origin station) causes you to miss a connection you can use the next available service to complete your journey.

So, no, you couldn't have used the 1530 without a new ticket if that was your origin station, because the delay to the 1515 was only 40 minutes. Furthermore, you haven't yet missed a connection due to a delay whilst travelling. The same applies for the chap from East Midlands Parkway.

Thanks for that. It clears things up for me. So if my EC train to Edinburgh is late into Newcastle (my origin station) but less than an hour I can travel on the first available Scotrail train to Glasgow Queen Street. That I understand, simple. But if the EC TRIN is over an hour late into Newcastle am I able to use the XC service to Glasgow Central or would I still have to use EC to Edinburgh and then travel to Queen Street?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....To my mind, that means that if the 15:15 was delayed, I can get the next train which was the 15:30. As it happens there was no inspection on the 15:30 train so the argument on-board didn't arise, but still it'd be interesting to have that debate...

Furthermore, I was on an East Midlands Parkway to St Pancras recently where there are two departures within five minutes. The earlier booked train was running later and a guy with an advance got on the "wrong" train. Revenue protection told him he'd have to get off and wait for the other train (which should have originally run earlier), but again NRE suggests that once a booked train is running late you are able to get on the next one to destination.

Andy

If you are at the start of your journey (the origin station), a delay to your service must be 60 minutes or more (or the train must be cancelled) before you can use alternative services (this is shown in the advance fares conditions on the NRES website).

If a delay whilst travelling (after you have left the origin station) causes you to miss a connection you can use the next available service to complete your journey.

So, no, you couldn't have used the 1530 without a new ticket if that was your origin station, because the delay to the 1515 was only 40 minutes. Furthermore, you haven't yet missed a connection due to a delay whilst travelling. The same applies for the chap from East Midlands Parkway.

Thanks for that. It clears things up for me. So if my EC train to Edinburgh is late into Newcastle (my origin station) but less than an hour I can travel on the first available Scotrail train to Glasgow Queen Street. That I understand, simple. But if the EC TRIN is over an hour late into Newcastle am I able to use the XC service to Glasgow Central or would I still have to use EC to Edinburgh and then travel to Queen Street?

Excuse the grammar on that post. Darn iPhone touch screen.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thanks for that. It clears things up for me. So if my EC train to Edinburgh is late into Newcastle (my origin station) but less than an hour I can travel on the first available Scotrail train to Glasgow Queen Street. That I understand, simple. But if the EC TRIN is over an hour late into Newcastle am I able to use the XC service to Glasgow Central or would I still have to use EC to Edinburgh and then travel to Queen Street?....

If your East Coast (EC) train is less than an hour late you can indeed use the Scotrail service from Edinburgh, as your ticket would be 'Rte EC & Connections'. If it is over an hour late you would be expected to wait for the next EC service as your ticket is not valid on Cross Country (XC) services between Newcastle and Edinburgh. However, EC may arrange with XC to allow EC passengers on XC services, if that happens you could use the next service. Once you get to Edinburgh, you could use the next available service to get to Glasgow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, I asked the delaying TOC (NXEC as was) who shrugged and said they didn't know, just get the next train. I asked the XC guard who shrugged and said he didn't know, so wouldn't accept it. So there wasn't much question of agreement or otherwise at the time...

Did you ask at the ticket office or platform staff? Platform staff are unlikely to know anything about tickets, ticket office staff should check with their control office if they do not know. I can understand the guard not accepting it if they haven't heard anything.

 

[stut]

Did you ask at the ticket office or platform staff? Platform staff are unlikely to know anything about tickets, ticket office staff should check with their control office if they do not know. I can understand the guard not accepting it if they haven't heard anything.

Went to the ticket office, queued, asked what I should do (does it need endorsed, etc) and they said it was no problem, just get on the next train and explain.

The delayed NXEC train was a one-off, 10-minute delay, but enough to miss a connection.

So, went over to platform 5, saw there was an XC train going to Cambridge, saw the guard, explained, he basically said he didn't know, so wouldn't accept it. I could have trudged my cases back over to the ticket office, but by the time I'd gone there and queued again, the train would have gone anyway. So I had a wasted two hours.

Still, not so much of a problem any more, as the new timetable has made a right mess of all the connections, so you have to wait for ages in Peterborough anyway...

 

[Skymonster]

If you are at the start of your journey (the origin station), a delay to your service must be 60 minutes or more (or the train must be cancelled) before you can use alternative services (this is shown in the advance fares conditions on the NRES website).

If a delay whilst travelling (after you have left the origin station) causes you to miss a connection you can use the next available service to complete your journey.

So, no, you couldn't have used the 1530 without a new ticket if that was your origin station, because the delay to the 1515 was only 40 minutes. Furthermore, you haven't yet missed a connection due to a delay whilst travelling

Interesting...

Not seeking to argue with a greater authority than I, rather just making further observations... No, it doesn't say that in the Ts&Cs for Advance tickets on the NRES website. It actually says "If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey", 60 minutes is only mentioned in the context of refunds, and the section of the Ts&Cs I have quoted does not mention connections.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

And no where - that I can see - in either the NRES Ts&Cs for advance tickets on the web, or in the NRCOC, is there a definition that a "journey" or "travelling" only starts after the first train leaves. I would therefore suggest it would be very easy for a casual traveler to regard a journey / travel as having started when they arrived at their origin station, and that if their booked train is delayed their advance ticket becomes valid on the next train that runs on the route whether it was the train on which they were originally booked OR another train that leaves before that.

Again, not trying to argue with people far more knowledgable than I, just making an observation that to a casual traveller there seems to be a lot of room for "interpretation"

Andy

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Interesting...

Not seeking to argue with a greater authority than I, rather just making further observations... No, it doesn't say that in the Ts&Cs for Advance tickets on the NRES website. It actually says "If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey", 60 minutes is only mentioned in the context of refunds, and the section of the Ts&Cs I have quoted does not mention connections.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

And no where - that I can see - in either the NRES Ts&Cs for advance tickets on the web, or in the NRCOC, is there a definition that a "journey" or "travelling" only starts after the first train leaves. I would therefore suggest it would be very easy for a casual traveler to regard a journey / travel as having started when they arrived at their origin station, and that if their booked train is delayed their advance ticket becomes valid on the next train that runs on the route whether it was the train on which they were originally booked OR another train that leaves before that.

Again, not trying to argue with people far more knowledgable than I, just making an observation that to a casual traveller there seems to be a lot of room for "interpretation"

Andy

I wouldn't refer to myself as 'a greater authority'.

....

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

....

I have highlighted the important bit, granted it shouldn't be under refunds, but it is there.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that a ticket is evidence of a contract between you and the TOCs concerned for a journey, or journeys, between the places named on the ticket. This implies the journey has not begun until you are moving out of the station onboard the train, however I agree there is no defined term for 'travelling' or 'journey' in the terms and conditions or NRCoC. That said, travelling and journey, by dictionary definition, involve movement from one place to another.

The wording could be clearer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Went to the ticket office, queued, asked what I should do (does it need endorsed, etc) and they said it was no problem, just get on the next train and explain....

Did you mention going via a different route? If not, maybe they assumed you would go by the same route as yo where planned to go. If you did, they should have check it was okay.

 

[stut]

Did you mention going via a different route? If not, maybe they assumed you would go by the same route as yo where planned to go. If you did, they should have check it was okay.

No, wouldn't have occurred to me, really. I just wanted to get to Ipswich as soon as I could!