South Pennines Day Ranger

[kar3emosman]

Tomorrow I shall be buying the South Pennines Day Ranger to make a few trips around the South Pennines.

Would I be right in saying there only valid on XC services between Leeds - Wakefield Westgate?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Valid on all services on the map area except for grand central, pretty sure you can use them on east coast too.

Just check valid on Arriva Trains Wales, CrossCountry, East Coast, East Midlands Trains, First TransPennine Express, Northern Rail, Virgin Trains.

So yeah everything but grand central.

Enjoy its a great day out.

 

[nedchester]

Tomorrow I shall be buying the South Pennines Day Ranger to make a few trips around the South Pennines.

Would I be right in saying there only valid on XC services between Leeds - Wakefield Westgate?

Yes and valid on XC between Wakefield and Sheffield. Had a "disagreement" with a gripper about this but XC confirmed the ticket as valid.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I didn't think it was valid on that bit? though it was only valid via kirkgate and sheffield.

 

[142094]

I didn't think it was valid on that bit? though it was only valid via kirkgate and sheffield.

It'll be the problem of the map not showing all the routes in an area, and that passengers cannot be expected to know which trains run via Rotherham Central and which ones go via Masborough.

 

[nedchester]

It'll be the problem of the map not showing all the routes in an area, and that passengers cannot be expected to know which trains run via Rotherham Central and which ones go via Masborough.

Yep. Valid at Sheffield and via at Wakefield Westgate. Passengers are not to know which route it takes ( and nor should they)

 

[Ferret]

Yep. Valid at Sheffield and via at Wakefield Westgate. Passengers are not to know which route it takes ( and nor should they)

That map is terribly unclear. I completely agree with you Nedchester that it has to be valid, and I'd accept it as such when checking tickets.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That map is terribly unclear. I completely agree with you Nedchester that it has to be valid, and I'd accept it as such when checking tickets.

The map that was on the NRES website last time I checked, which I printed and have a copy of in my bag, couldn't be any clearer - it shows all routes and stations where the ticket is valid and the line direct from Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate is not shown - the only route shown quite clearly on the map is the line via Darton. Now if CrossCountry have admitted it is valid, then fine, but I wouldn't say that the map shows it as such.

The argument about passengers not knowing which way a train goes is semi valid I suppose, but the same argument could be had for every route specific normal ticket - how does a passenger know which way any train goes if the ticket says " Route Via X" on it? If in doubt - ask.

 

[Lampshade]

The problem there is Wakefield - Sheffield wouldn't be valid on Northern services via Moorthorpe, so it technically shouldn't be valid on XC. The argument to the contrary are that without access to a WTT, passengers wouldn't know.

 

[tony_mac]

- how does a passenger know which way any train goes if the ticket says " Route Via X" on it? If in doubt - ask.

There will be some intermediate station that you can use to work out the route. The 'route via ..' also gives you a clue that there is some restriction on the route, so you can at least think to ask.

You just wouldn't know that you needed to ask on a ranger ticket - or else you would have to ask for every non-stop train in case it goes on an unmapped route.
e.g. how would I know if a Manchester to Stockport train goes via Levenshulme? etc. etc.

 

[Crossover]

Have to agree with kwvr45 on this - hadn't noticed up until now. The map clearly shows the route south of WKF is for the loop to WKK only so not valid to/from Sheffield on XC or EMT.

I don't think there are any open stations on the line between WKF and where the others join up to identify it to passengers, are there?

So for 'IC' services (excluding TPE here) it is only valid on EC, XC and EMT between Leeds and Wakefield Westgate and XC between Piccadilly and Stockport I believe

 

[Welshman]

For information, I used a South Pennines Day Ranger on XC from Sheffield to Leeds recently, and it was accepted with no problems.

 

[Ferret]

For information, I used a South Pennines Day Ranger on XC from Sheffield to Leeds recently, and it was accepted with no problems.

I don't see what choice there is but to accept it! Nedchester's case has been widely mentioned not just on here - the fault is with the map. Why is it valid on some Northern services between LDS-SHF and not others (if we believe the map)?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I don't see what choice there is but to accept it! Nedchester's case has been widely mentioned not just on here - the fault is with the map. Why is it valid on some Northern services between LDS-SHF and not others (if we believe the map)?

Because it is exactly the same as the Lancashire Day Ranger, which is valid on some Northern services between Manchester and Liverpool (those that go via the Chat Moss) but not those Northern services between Manchester and Liverpool that go via the Cheshire Lines route. There has to be a boundary somewhere.

The map HERE on the NRES website is extremely clear - it is only valid trains from Sheffield to Wakefield KIRKGATE. As everyone is constantly bleating on here that "NRES is meant to be the official source for information" I suggest that the official source says it isn't valid!

 

[Ferret]

Because it is exactly the same as the Lancashire Day Ranger, which is valid on some Northern services between Manchester and Liverpool (those that go via the Chat Moss) but not those Northern services between Manchester and Liverpool that go via the Cheshire Lines route. There has to be a boundary somewhere.

The map HERE on the NRES website is extremely clear - it is only valid trains from Sheffield to Wakefield KIRKGATE. As everyone is constantly bleating on here that "NRES is meant to be the official source for information" I suggest that the official source says it isn't valid!

The problem with that though is XC CR presumably consulting with the revenue department first and then deciding to accept it as valid. I have to go with that, and to be frank, it is the common sense approach.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This product looks like one of the few ranger tickets that would actually be valid on the once-a-week "Denton Flyer" service from Stockport to Stalybridge!

 

[142094]

XC have already gone back on what they did to a member of this forum and have accepted it. That sets a precedence.

 

[Crossover]

This product looks like one of the few ranger tickets that would actually be valid on the once-a-week "Denton Flyer" service from Stockport to Stalybridge!

Indeed it is - restrictions seem to be loosely based round it too (i.e. Valid before 09:30)

I'm still in agreement with kwvr45 about the validity as it clearly isn't from WKF to SHF. I don't think one TM allowing it really sets a precedent as the chances are the others wouldn't.

 

[142094]

I don't think one TM allowing it really sets a precedent as the chances are the others wouldn't.

It wasn't a TM, it was CrossCountry itself.

 

[Ferret]

It wasn't a TM, it was CrossCountry itself.

That's just it - it was Customer Relations who I imagine consulted with the revenue department first! Difficult to argue with.......

 

[142094]

That's just it - it was Customer Relations who I imagine consulted with the revenue department first! Difficult to argue with.......

I should also add that I've used said ticket before with XC and had no problems.

Again this is another case of the railway shooting itself in the foot - it isn't hard to produce a map which is actually correct.

 

[Deerfold]

I should also add that I've used said ticket before with XC and had no problems.

Again this is another case of the railway shooting itself in the foot - it isn't hard to produce a map which is actually correct.

This one seems to be technically correct - it's just not obvious for anyone who doesn't know the routes in question. How does a non-expert or non-local know that the express service to Westgate not run through Kirkgate. All it needs is a note - not valid on trains which run non-stop Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate and all would be well.

 

[34D]

XC have already gone back on what they did to a member of this forum and have accepted it. That sets a precedence.

You need to be careful with words here. A precedent is something that a higher court can set that binds a lower court - XC allowing one passenger to use a ticket is not in itself indicative that it is valid for all passengers. Obviously if XC put on their website "we accept xx ticket between Leeds and Sheffield" that is different.

I suggest emailing XC (as a fresh enquiry) to see what they say to you.

As a point of note, I believe that some XC Leeds-Sheffield do go through Kirkgate - there is (or was, at least) one sunday evening service that turned off at Hare Park (so still via Moorthorpe). I believe there used to be one XC per week that went via Barnsley for route knowledge purposes too. Not sure whether this continues though.

Agree that the map is very clear what is and isn't permitted, though of course if XC send you an email that will be fine for you (and you only).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If XC want to accept the ticket, then that is fine. I have no problems with them accepting it, but based on the published map, I don't think they are obliged to accept it.

 

[34D]

This one seems to be technically correct - it's just not obvious for anyone who doesn't know the routes in question. How does a non-expert or non-local know that the express service to Westgate not run through Kirkgate. All it needs is a note - not valid on trains which run non-stop Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate and all would be well.

Well no, the route isn't shown, that should be sufficient. It doesn't show the jubilee line either, so I'm assuming that is also not included in this ranger. No need for a 'note'.

I was wrong above, btw. The sunday evening train (1E75) goes non-stop Sheffield-Leeds and avoids both wakefield stations by Turners Lane curve.

 

[OwlMan]

XC allowed travel based on last years maps. Now new maps have been issued, both on NRE and also on the new Northern leaflets, clearly showing that trains have to go via Barnsley that travel may no longer be allowed. The only way to find out is to ask XC themselves.

Peter

 

[First class]

This map was created on 23/12/11 and is the one supplied to staff (The Manual)

 

[tony_mac]

If I had only seen that map then I would assume that all direct trains from Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate went through Kirkgate - that's what it looks like, Westgate isn't even on the edge of the map.

It wouldn't occur to me that there is even a route that goes east off the map, then returns to Westgate without going through Kirkgate.

I don't think it is reasonable to penalise passengers for not being able to guess what the validity is supposed to be.

 

[142094]

You need to be careful with words here. A precedent is something that a higher court can set that binds a lower court - XC allowing one passenger to use a ticket is not in itself indicative that it is valid for all passengers.

Nowhere in my last post did I say legal precedent. However, if the person who was challenged last year can supply the reply they received from XC, then I would certainly use this if they tried to pull me up on it.

 

[Deerfold]

You need to be careful with words here. A precedent is something that a higher court can set that binds a lower court.

I don't altogether disagree with you on this topic generally (though I think a little extra wording would clarify the map) but you're describing a "legal precedent" not "a precedent".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Precedents