Essex Thameside Franchise (C2C)

[deltic]

The Essex Thameside franchise is up for being relet this year. Given the excellent work National Express has done with C2C over the past few years what further improvements could realistically be delivered on this line or it will it just be carry on as it is now for the next 15 years?

 

[Zoe]

The Essex Thameside franchise is up for being relet this year. Given the excellent work National Express has done with C2C over the past few years what further improvements could realistically be delivered on this line or it will it just be carry on as it is now for the next 15 years?

The only improvement I can immediatley think of is to the Sunday service between Grays and Barking which is currently an hourly shuttle. That said it passes through quite an industrial area so there may simply not be demand for it.

 

[Ivo]

More off-peak capacity would be a good start. Holiday period services should run 8-car whenever possible to cope with tourist traffic, while at the other end it is not exactly rare for people to have to stand between Barking and Fenchurch Street.

Mind you, if it was my decision I'd expand Fenchurch Street and give it a proper link to Tower Hill, and run Brighton Express -esque journeys to Southend Central!

Zoe: The demand is just not there. not so long ago the route did not even run on Sundays. There may be a case for an improvement at Rainham, but that alone is not enough - especially when the easiest option to facilitate that would be to re-route an Ockendon train. And that's just daft.

 

[Zoe]

Brighton Express -esque journeys to Southend Central

First stop Leigh-on-Sea? That would go back to the days of the District line specials.

 

[Ivo]

Close - Benfleet. The least we can do is give Canvey Island a boost

I would like to run it from Liverpool Street though and have it call at Stratford and Barking before the long non-stop run.

 

[Zoe]

Close - Benfleet. The least we can do is give Canvey Island a boost

There already are first stop Benfleet trains.

 

[Ivo]

That is true...

...during the high peak only.

I'm thinking something a bit more ambitious, along the lines of a limited summer service. Not that it would happen

 

[deltic]

Once the Barking - Gospel Oak line is electrified could you run through services from say Watford to Southend?

 

[Zoe]

...during the high peak only.

There seem to be some unusual stopping patterns in the peak. For example I was once on a train that went Limehouse - Barking - Laindon and then all stations.

 

[Ivo]

Once the Barking - Gospel Oak line is electrified could you run through services from say Watford to Southend?

I'd like to think so, although unless you plan to run pretty much non-stop west of West Hampstead (you could probably get away with at most Bushey, Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central, and then depending on pathing) it would have to use dual-voltage stock. In years gone by (pre-Beeching) there were services from the Midland Main Line to Southend, including several that terminated at St Pancras, courtesy of the line's LMS allegiance. But the GOBLIN won't be wired any time soon due to the impracticalities of the route.

There seem to be some unusual stopping patterns in the peak. For example I was once on a train that went Limehouse - Barking - Laindon and then all stations.

Perfectly normal at peaks. In British Rail days some trains were skip-stop right through to Southend East; some even skipped Southend Central.

Looking at the current timetable, the 1705 matches your description perfectly...

One of the more unusual ones at present is the 1525 from FST: FST - WEH - BKG - UPM - LAI - BSO - PSE - BEF - LES [being lazy here]

 

[Zoe]

Perfectly normal at peaks. In British Rail days some trains were skip-stop right through to Southend East; some even skipped Southend Central.

Not first stop Southend East though? Over on the Great Eastern until 1998 one Southend train each hour was first stop Billericay.

 

[tbtc]

You can't cram in many more services, the franchise seems to be working well, some credit is due to National Express.

The only real change not suggested would be additional trains. But this brings the problem that any additional trains wouldn't be 357s, which then spoils some of the efficiencies of having just one type of stock. There was talk of some additional EMUs coming (317s or 321s cascaded to Thameside), but AFAIK there are no plans on the horizon for additional trains (?)

 

[Ivo]

The peak service, with the increase to full 8/12 -car operation, is improving (on what was already pretty good). It's more the off-peak service I'm worried about. Although, I do wonder if my Express idea would be better running to Victoria, to serve the Airport; the smaller stations east of Rayleigh could then be served only twice an hour without too much trouble.

Not first stop Southend East though?

Oh no; that would be ridiculous. Looking at my 1996 WTT, I can see that (for instance) the 1726 stopped as follows:

Limehouse, Barking, Laindon, Basildon, Pitsea, Benfleet, Leigh-on-Sea, Westcliff, Southend East, Thorpe Bay

(This was before West Ham opened.)

Over on the Great Eastern until 1998 one Southend train each hour was first stop Billericay.

Wow, really? I only definitely used it once each way before then, and those two journeys can't have been - we changed at Shenfield. (Although I only remember changing to an AR service at Colchester; I was only 8 )

 

[AlterEgo]

Once the Barking - Gospel Oak line is electrified could you run through services from say Watford to Southend?

That's an interesting idea and probably deserving of more thought.

Is Platform 10 used any more at Watford Junction?

Would there be (non stop) paths on the busy North London Line?

And what would potential journey times be like? Would the NLL and GOBLIN be unacceptably slow to make such a service viable?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is Platform 10 used any more at Watford Junction?

A couple of London Midland peak services to / from Euston, but nothing AFAIK off-peak or on weekends. Of course, if it was an issue, and you had lucky timings, you could use p11 whilst the Abbey line train isn't about...

 

[Zoe]

Wow, really? I only definitely used it once each way before then, and those two journeys can't have been - we changed at Shenfield. (Although I only remember changing to an AR service at Colchester; I was only

Until 1998 the service was I believe:

Liverpool Street to Gidea Park all stations every 20 minutes.

Liverpool Street to Wickford every 20 minutes with two of these services continueing to Southend Victoria and the other to Southminster. They called at Stratford, Ilford, Romford and all stations.

Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria every 60 minutes calling at Billericay and all stations.

 

[87015]

The only real change not suggested would be additional trains. But this brings the problem that any additional trains wouldn't be 357s, which then spoils some of the efficiencies of having just one type of stock. There was talk of some additional EMUs coming (317s or 321s cascaded to Thameside), but AFAIK there are no plans on the horizon for additional trains (?)

Well, they have new platform extensions round the loop which were built for the planned extra stock that has been canned

Linespeed improvements, more stock and a re-hash of the timetable with faster limited stop services are probably what is being sniffed around IMO.

Its a really good franchise bid to show what the owning groups are made of - you can sit back as it is or really go out and try and do something different.

 

[Schnellzug]

I suppose that NX seem to have made a reasonable job of it, but please could the new franchise specify a proper name?!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A couple of London Midland peak services to / from Euston, but nothing AFAIK off-peak or on weekends. Of course, if it was an issue, and you had lucky timings, you could use p11 whilst the Abbey line train isn't about...

Cant use P11 off the slow lines , - there are ground frame interfaces and points need to be clipped etc.

 

[iphone76]

Until 1998 the service was I believe:

Liverpool Street to Gidea Park all stations every 20 minutes.

Liverpool Street to Wickford every 20 minutes with two of these services continueing to Southend Victoria and the other to Southminster. They called at Stratford, Ilford, Romford and all stations.

Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria every 60 minutes calling at Billericay and all stations.

That is correct - I remember catching the last Billericay first stop train back from London to Wickford in 1998 before First introduced the all day fast service on the Southend Line.

PRISM / NX have done a good job on the LTS line, however, didn't the whole line benefit from total route modernisation (courtesy of BR/NSE - taxpayers) just before privatisation?

 

[Essexman]

As a regular user I'm generally very happy with C2C.
Only change I'd like to see would be longer trains at busy off peak times. Late night from Fenchurch Street, weekend eary morning and daytime when West Ham at home often need to be 8 coaches.

 

[jon0844]

I'd like the new franchise owner to propose armed guards to patrol the stations and trains. Possibly with snipers to take out chavs approaching the stations in the first place.

I would even accept a 5% fare increase for that.

They could also place cameras on the rifles and then streaming the live assassinations to people around the world.

Edit: I apologise for the above. I was of course joking about the 5% fare increase, which would probably be unpopular.

 

[Zoe]

I'd like the new franchise owner to propose armed guards to patrol the stations and trains. Possibly with snipers to take out chavs approaching the stations in the first place.

If a TOC did propose that at an East London station it could be argued they were Barking mad.

 

[calc7]

I'd like the new franchise owner to propose armed guards to patrol the stations and trains. Possibly with snipers to take out chavs approaching the stations in the first place.

I would even accept a 5% fare increase for that.

They could also place cameras on the rifles and then streaming the live assassinations to people around the world.

Edit: I apologise for the above. I was of course joking about the 5% fare increase, which would probably be unpopular.

Agreed on both parts. Perhaps my only gripe with this company's services is the much higher proportion of social flotsam on its services compared to the other operators I usually travel on. It's not their fault that their route serves half of east London, but lack of deterrents such as patrols and ticket checks is occasionally a cause of disappointment.

 

[Essexman]

Some form of instant death for those using electronic devices in quiet coach would be very welcome.

And they could take down the signs that says quiet coach rule does not apply to those using Barking station. I assume there must be signs magically only visible to Barking residents, as they seem to believe that the quiet coach (nearest to Barking steps travelling east) is their special coach to make as much noise in as possible.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm not really the biggest fan of National Express, as you all know, however they've done a really good job with this line, I know it's not the most challenging of lines but I remember back in the old days when it was known as the Misery line and it was terrible, the change of trains has been of a great benefit in the last few years, and if this is not going to be tied up with the Greater Anglia franchise I'd like them to hold on to it.

As others have said though, the addition of more security would be the only thing I could think of, don't think changing the franchise holder will be of benefit to anyone at all, so the spec should just include security and keep everything the same.

 

[Ivo]

I'm not really the biggest fan of National Express, as you all know, however they've done a really good job with this line, I know it's not the most challenging of lines but I remember back in the old days when it was known as the Misery line and it was terrible, the change of trains has been of a great benefit in the last few years, and if this is not going to be tied up with the Greater Anglia franchise I'd like them to hold on to it.

As others have said though, the addition of more security would be the only thing I could think of, don't think changing the franchise holder will be of benefit to anyone at all, so the spec should just include security and keep everything the same.

Just to clarify, the two lines have historically been separate entities, right through to nationalisation (when effectively everything came under one umbrella). The Great Eastern had a chance to buy the LTS at one stage but for some reason - I forget why - it didn't happen, and the LTS ended up under LMS control as I indicated previously. As such any merger of the two is unlikely.

Back to the issue at hand though, the main problem is the off-peak service. It is all very well for them to put 8-car trains on for the airshow and during the summer, and also during major shopping periods at Lakeside, but the entire line can struggle at times. It is a far more local route than most lines, which means it carries that much more local traffic - local traffic which mingles with the longer-distance traffic which in itself can probably justify 8-car operation. There is certainly the stock to do this; this can be seen from the instensity of the peak service using only 74 units. I accept that there probably isn't a need for 32 carriages an hour on the main line alone, but the present 16 often struggles to cope. Unless of course someone fancies taking a punt on my express idea (call it the Estuary Express)?

And I know I've said this before, and been criticised for saying this before, but would someone please explain why the LTS main line deserves less capacity per hour than the Cross City? It just plain doesn't.

 

[swadbus]

I'm also a regular user of C2C. I find it is really reliable and much better than the NXEA counterpart a short distance away.

My only suggestion would be a 1tph Barking - Stratford - Liverpool Street. I think there would be a good use of such a service, particularly with the Westfield now open, hassle free for those coming from Southend etc. If no space at Liverpool Street, perhaps 1 TPH Barking - Stratford - Fenchurch Street via the gas factory loop?

 

[Ivo]

My only suggestion would be a 1tph Barking - Stratford - Liverpool Street. I think there would be a good use of such a service, particularly with the Westfield now open, hassle free for those coming from Southend etc. If no space at Liverpool Street, perhaps 1 TPH Barking - Stratford - Fenchurch Street via the gas factory loop?

First of all, note that I have condensed this post because IE died on me without warning and I can't be bothered to type out everything I wrote again

Anyhow, a few thoughts to consider on each of these:

Option A

• Can 1tph BKG - LST really be justified? 2tph would work better, but with Pfm1 effectively unavailable and no other AC bay in situ this would be difficult
• You could in theory extend to the east, but there is no obvious answer close enough to justify such a shuttle
• What of LUL? They see plenty of traffic between West Ham and Stratford, and also between Liv St and Tower Hill; would they see this as a capacity enhancement or potentially a reduction of income?
• Is the old "1 TOC per terminal" rule still applicable, and if yes how do you get around giving such a small TOC two termini when one of those is already the base for another?

Option B

• Is the Gas Factory Loop in need of any renovation that would permit regular use?
• Fenchurch Street is thought of as running at full capacity already, even off-peak (one train in each bay every 30 minutes); what can be done to alleviate this?
• Do you then re-introduce the old Bow station to provide (indirect) LUL/DLR interchange, and if yes what impact would this have on the other LTS/GE stations around?

Having said all of this, it would be hypocritical of me to just go now. I often overlook several of these issues when considering future LTS/GE ideas, and there are plenty of them, so I hold my hands up! I would definitely use such a route though!

 

[ChristopherJ]

My only suggestion would be a 1tph Barking - Stratford - Liverpool Street. I think there would be a good use of such a service, particularly with the Westfield now open, hassle free for those coming from Southend etc. If no space at Liverpool Street, perhaps 1 TPH Barking - Stratford - Fenchurch Street via the gas factory loop?

Presently, four trains per hour are diverted to Liverpool Street every weekend to coincide with both engineering works at Fenchurch Street and shopping sales at Stratford City this month.

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/destinations/shopping/westfield_january_sales

Do you then re-introduce the old Bow station to provide (indirect) LUL/DLR interchange, and if yes what impact would this have on the other LTS/GE stations around?

Interchange between c2c and the District Line is easily available at both Barking and West Ham, additionally Stratford is served by two DLR routes - I doubt the re-introduction of Bow station can be justified on the grounds of providing additional interchanges, the station building is now a William Hill bookmaker, too.

Bow has the benefit of the DLR at Bow Church, the District/H&C Line at Bow Road, and Mile End for the Central Line is only a 5 minute walk - or one stop on the Underground, plus there are direct 24hrs buses (route 25) to/from Stratford in to the city.

Also, in regards to express trains on the Essex Thameside route, a contact (driver at Shoeburyness for c2c) informs me that the fast services between London, Laindon and Benfleet can easily catch an all-stations local by Upminster, they then just travel behind on single yellows for the remainder of the journey.