Regarding the T&W metro between Sunderland and Pelaw

[Slugger Onions]

My understanding is that on this section the metro runs on a mainline that's also used by heavy commuter rail and freights.

And yet the metro units most certainly aren't tram-trains built to mainline safety standards.

I've read that some of the German ATP as used on the Modell Karlsruher has been imported and installed.
Still doesn't sound too safe to me, so how does it work and eliminate/mitigate potential collisions?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Unsafe?
Collisions?

I don't think so. And neither do hundreds of staff working the Metro and thousands of passengers travelling every day. These trains operate under signalling with automatic protection and headways similar to mainline trains, and the signalling detects occupied sections using track circuits similar to mainline signalling.

The units are more like heavy rail at 40tons each coach with air braking as well as rheostatic braking. But on this forum, most of the discussion about the Metro is in this 'Metro and Light Rail' section, and you'll possibly find all the answers you want if you look further in here.

 

[142094]

The Metrocars are not trams or tram-trains. They run on totally grade-separated lines so cannot be referred to as a tram. As for crashworthiness - I'd say that they are better than a tram, but as with anything that was constructed 30 odd years ago there will be more modern trains which will have a higher standard.

As Dave has said, the signalling and train protection is just about the same as on the national rail network. The main danger to a Metro is level crossings and silly drivers who jump the lights (and the same drivers present the same danger to any other train using the line between Pelaw and Sunderland).

I've read that some of the German ATP as used on the Modell Karlsruher has been imported and installed.

You'll have to elaborate on this as this hasn't be done to my knowledge. However, when DB took over some 'ideas' may have comes across from Germany, but it doesn't involve train protection.

Also, I'll add that it is testament to the safety of the Metro that (to my knowledge), there hasn't been a single fatality due to a crash in the history of the system - the only times I can think of there being a problem is car drivers at level crossings.

 

[Ze Random One]

Quoting from Railway-Technology.com
T&W Metro uses a train-stop system based on the Indusi signalling system used by German and Austrian railways.

My understanding is that this trainstop system is equally in use on the Sunderland Direct extension, operating alongside AWS/TPWS for mainline trains. It was in use from the start of T&W Metro operations, and is not a special addition for Sunderland Direct. Indusi's system is known as PZB in German-speaking countries, and is used extensively in Germany, Romania, Austria and Israel, including the Karlsruhe TramTrain system.

Metro trains can stop very quickly in normal operations - they only have a top speed of 50mph - and they have supplementary magnetic brakes which will be applied during an emergency braking application making it extremely unlikely a metro will make much incursion into any overlap following a SPAD.
Furthermore, I believe there is an additional operating rule preventing a mainline train from occupying a block immediately adjacent to a metro (and vice versa).

All-in-all, I suspect that the Sunderland extension is safer than the ECML!

 

[142094]

Yes, Indusi was the system put in when the line was converted. Road 17 at teh depot is used for the brake test - if anyone was at the Open Day in 2010 you would have seen the track magnets.

Normal service braking is rheostatic, but emergency braking is done by a track brake - which when magnetised, is attracted to the rails and slows it down. When a there is a change of driver, you'll hear this track brake dropping onto the rails, making a clunking sound.

 

[Kryten2340]

Also, I'll add that it is testament to the safety of the Metro that (to my knowledge), there hasn't been a single fatality due to a crash in the history of the system - the only times I can think of there being a problem is car drivers at level crossings.

That and those two incidents where people on mobility scooters have forced the opposite doors open when boarding and fell onto the track.

I know I'm going off topic here but are the reliability problems begining to get a bit too frequent?

Last week a train was taken out of service at Monument during the morning rush hour and Thursday a coast train was taken out of service during the rush hour too. There was also an incident where a passenger needed an ambulance and they decided to change a Regent Centre train to the coast which meant people (me included) being detrained at South Gosforth. This of cours is not reliability but still a bad decision in my view as they could have let that train terminate at Regent Centre and then run out of service to Longbenton via the avoiding line and then restart service from there.

 

[142094]

That and those two incidents where people on mobility scooters have forced the opposite doors open when boarding and fell onto the track.

There's been more than two that I know of - someone drove off the platform at Byker on one a few years ago.

I know I'm going off topic here but are the reliability problems begining to get a bit too frequent?

Last week a train was taken out of service at Monument during the morning rush hour and Thursday a coast train was taken out of service during the rush hour too. There was also an incident where a passenger needed an ambulance and they decided to change a Regent Centre train to the coast which meant people (me included) being detrained at South Gosforth. This of cours is not reliability but still a bad decision in my view as they could have let that train terminate at Regent Centre and then run out of service to Longbenton via the avoiding line and then restart service from there.

I haven't noticed much change in the reliability, but might be with using the Metrocars a bit more due to the stock that is down at Doncaster.

Using the avoiding line takes more planning than you think - notice has to be given to get someone to work the crossing on at the Cheswick Drive side, and special signalling arrangements are needed to avoid conflicts in the depot. It really can only can be used in special cases (such as when the junction at South Gosforth is being worked on).

The avoiding line is one of the only bits of track that I need, done most of the rest.

 

[blue sabre]

Yes, Indusi was the system put in when the line was converted. Road 17 at teh depot is used for the brake test - if anyone was at the Open Day in 2010 you would have seen the track magnets.

Normal service braking is rheostatic, but emergency braking is done by a track brake - which when magnetised, is attracted to the rails and slows it down. When a there is a change of driver, you'll hear this track brake dropping onto the rails, making a clunking sound.

So that's what that noise is! I've always wondered what it was.

 

[142094]

So that's what that noise is! I've always wondered what it was.

Aye - very familiar sound at South Gosforth (or any terminus). When the driver 'opens up the desk', the track brakes drop and the radio buzzes. Then the track brakes release and it's ready to go.

 

[Kryten2340]

There's been more than two that I know of - someone drove off the platform at Byker on one a few years ago.



I haven't noticed much change in the reliability, but might be with using the Metrocars a bit more due to the stock that is down at Doncaster.

Using the avoiding line takes more planning than you think - notice has to be given to get someone to work the crossing on at the Cheswick Drive side, and special signalling arrangements are needed to avoid conflicts in the depot. It really can only can be used in special cases (such as when the junction at South Gosforth is being worked on).

The avoiding line is one of the only bits of track that I need, done most of the rest.

Funnily enough me as well. I was lucky enough to spend work experience at the control room 15 years ago and got a day out on driver refresher training. Seeing the train bend to the extent it does on the Manors curve is an experience. I can still remember the looks from some passengers as the train came in from Monument and then went back out the 'wrong way'.

 

[142094]

Funnily enough me as well. I was lucky enough to spend work experience at the control room 15 years ago and got a day out on driver refresher training. Seeing the train bend to the extent it does on the Manors curve is an experience. I can still remember the looks from some passengers as the train came in from Monument and then went back out the 'wrong way'.

Managed to get it in over the summer (plus non-stop through Monument was a bonus after it had terminated at St James). Went on a couple of test runs out to Pelaw sidings as well.

 

[Kryten2340]

Managed to get it in over the summer (plus non-stop through Monument was a bonus after it had terminated at St James). Went on a couple of test runs out to Pelaw sidings as well.

I never got to do any of the sidings. Other than the depot of course. I did get the unique experience of going underneath the plat 1 and 2 escalators at Monument. Also got to go across the Haymarket/Monument switch once as a passenger.

Speaking of sidings are the ones at South Shields ever used?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Speaking of sidings are the ones at South Shields ever used?

Or the four bays at Shieldfield?

 

[Kryten2340]

Or the four bays at Shieldfield?

Is that the Stoddart Street ones? If so I know they were used during the line closure last year and if I'm not mistaken they are used early morning as they run down there via the Manors curve in order to change direction to get down to St James ready to start service.

142094 might be able to confirm this.

 

[142094]

I never got to do any of the sidings. Other than the depot of course. I did get the unique experience of going underneath the plat 1 and 2 escalators at Monument. Also got to go across the Haymarket/Monument switch once as a passenger.

Speaking of sidings are the ones at South Shields ever used?

Worked out of the offices at Monument, Central and South Shields for some of the big events last year. Also done that bit of track as well between Monument and Haymarket (known as Prudhoe Street Crossover). The other highlight was a trip on the battery loco to North Shields.

The sidings at South Shields are rarely used, part of it is unwired where ballast is loaded, so only engineering trains can run on that section. However, I do have some pictures of Metrocars there when the South Hylton services were being disrupted, so they increased the frequency between Pelaw and South Shields, dumped a few empty ones in the sidings there until everything was sorted. Only a limited amount of trains can run on the South Shields line due to the single line bits and also to stop too much juice being drawn from the overheads. I'll dig it out and put it up.

Or the four bays at Shieldfield?

Aye, one is used in the morning, around half 5/6am. Runs empty from the depot and around Manors, into Stoddart Street, out of Stoddart Street to St James and in service from there. Manors scissor crossing can be a rare bit of track to get in, but when the line was shut last year between Byker and North Shields they were running wrong line to Byker. With the engineering work continuing this year, there should be more 'rare' track sections being used.

The only sidings that are used at least once per day now are Pelaw, Monkseaton, Benton and Regent Centre. North Shields hasn't seen one in a while to my knowledge, and I'm not sure if Stoneyhurst Road at South Gosforth is used these days.

 

[Kryten2340]

I never got to do any of the sidings. Other than the depot of course. I did get the unique experience of going underneath the plat 1 and 2 escalators at Monument. Also got to go across the Haymarket/Monument switch once as a passenger.

Speaking of sidings are the ones at South Shields ever used?

Worked out of the offices at Monument, Central and South Shields for some of the big events last year. Also done that bit of track as well between Monument and Haymarket (known as Prudhoe Street Crossover). The other highlight was a trip on the battery loco to North Shields.

The sidings at South Shields are rarely used, part of it is unwired where ballast is loaded, so only engineering trains can run on that section. However, I do have some pictures of Metrocars there when the South Hylton services were being disrupted, so they increased the frequency between Pelaw and South Shields, dumped a few empty ones in the sidings there until everything was sorted. Only a limited amount of trains can run on the South Shields line due to the single line bits and also to stop too much juice being drawn from the overheads. I'll dig it out and put it up.

Or the four bays at Shieldfield?

Aye, one is used in the morning, around half 5/6am. Runs empty from the depot and around Manors, into Stoddart Street, out of Stoddart Street to St James and in service from there. Manors scissor crossing can be a rare bit of track to get in, but when the line was shut last year between Byker and North Shields they were running wrong line to Byker. With the engineering work continuing this year, there should be more 'rare' track sections being used.

The only sidings that are used at least once per day now are Pelaw, Monkseaton, Benton and Regent Centre. North Shields hasn't seen one in a while to my knowledge, and I'm not sure if Stoneyhurst Road at South Gosforth is used these days.

The Sunderland sidings will be used too when the Sunderland only trains terminate there won't they?

I saw a train in the South Gosforth siding a couple of months ago. I think it had just been took out of service due to a fault as the Pelaw train I was on was extended to Shields.

 

[142094]

The Sunderland sidings will be used too when the Sunderland only trains terminate there won't they?

I saw a train in the South Gosforth siding a couple of months ago. I think it had just been took out of service due to a fault as the Pelaw train I was on was extended to Shields.

If the train is running back in service, then it probably will use Sunderland Burdon Dock siding, but if it is terminating at Sunderland and running empty it might just use the crossover at the Newcastle end of the station.

 

[sprinterguy]

The early morning Metro that starts from Sunderland runs straight into the northbound platform (Or at least it did a couple of years ago) when it arrives into Sunderland. The late night Metro that terminates at Sunderland arrives into the usual southbound platform, and then I'm not sure what it does after that: I think it goes straight back out northbound and uses the crossover as you say 142094.

 

[142094]

Here is a pic of South Shields being used. A while back I was told that Nexus were planning to built a small depot here where Metrocars could be kept overnight - it would save having to send a set empty to South Shields every morning, and earlier trains could run from South Shields.

This one was taken when there were extra services on between St James and Sunderland over Christmas.

 

[blue sabre]

This one was taken when there were extra services on between St James and Sunderland over Christmas.

Another question I meant to put up on here - I remember seeing this myself coming home from work. I presume it is the sidings just before Park Lane? There aren't any more around there?

 

[142094]

There are two at the east end of Sunderland - one is electrified for the Metro and the other is used for Northern on Sundays.

 

[Slugger Onions]

Unsafe?
Collisions?

I don't think so. And neither do hundreds of staff working the Metro and thousands of passengers travelling every day. These trains operate under signalling with automatic protection and headways similar to mainline trains, and the signalling detects occupied sections using track circuits similar to mainline signalling.

The units are more like heavy rail at 40tons each coach with air braking as well as rheostatic braking. But on this forum, most of the discussion about the Metro is in this 'Metro and Light Rail' section, and you'll possibly find all the answers you want if you look further in here.

I'm not saying that they're unsafe. I'm asking what they have that makes them safe.

It's a fact that the tram-trains as used in Germany and France are what they are, because they conform to their respective country's mainline safety regulations.
Otherwise they wouldn't have needed to be invented in the first place. Light railways generally use the same safety regulations as tramways and there have been regional tramways since the turn of the 20th century.

I'm not finding it easy to come across the precautions and associated regulations of the Tyne-and-Wear metro.

Also, I'll add that it is testament to the safety of the Metro that (to my knowledge), there hasn't been a single fatality due to a crash in the history of the system - the only times I can think of there being a problem is car drivers at level crossings.

That doesn't mean that a catastrophic accident could never happen.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm not saying that they're unsafe. I'm asking what they have that makes them safe.

Asking what they have that makes them safe is basically saying that they are unsafe!

It's a fact that the tram-trains as used in Germany and France are what they are, because they conform to their respective country's mainline safety regulations.

Metro stock conforms to mainline standards.

Otherwise they wouldn't have needed to be invented in the first place. Light railways generally use the same safety regulations as tramways and there have been regional tramways since the turn of the 20th century.

Light railways run to the same level of legislation as the mainline.

I'm not finding it easy to come across the precautions and associated regulations of the Tyne-and-Wear metro.

I am in possession of the rules and regulations of the Metro, and they are perfectly safe.

That doesn't mean that a catastrophic accident could never happen.

And accidents happen. It doesn't mean the railway is inherently unsafe, it mess someone somewhere has made a mistake and this mistake has caused a crash.

 

[Slugger Onions]

My understanding is that this trainstop system is equally in use on the Sunderland Direct extension, operating alongside AWS/TPWS for mainline trains. It was in use from the start of T&W Metro operations, and is not a special addition for Sunderland Direct. Indusi's system is known as PZB in German-speaking countries, and is used extensively in Germany, Romania, Austria and Israel, including the Karlsruhe TramTrain system.

Metro trains can stop very quickly in normal operations - they only have a top speed of 50mph - and they have supplementary magnetic brakes which will be applied during an emergency braking application making it extremely unlikely a metro will make much incursion into any overlap following a SPAD.
Furthermore, I believe there is an additional operating rule preventing a mainline train from occupying a block immediately adjacent to a metro (and vice versa).

This makes sense.

But I'm still wondering if the UK has looser mainline running regulations.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

This makes sense.

But I'm still wondering if the UK has looser mainline running regulations.

Why would it?

 

[Slugger Onions]

Asking what they have that makes them safe is basically saying that they are unsafe!

Logically, how is that?
I'm just enquiring how they are safe. If I thought they weren't why would I ask the question?

Metro stock conforms to mainline standards.

Could you provide some evidence of this? cheers.

Light railways run to the same level of legislation as the mainline.

That can't be true.
If that was true, tram-trains would've never been invented in the first place.

I am in possession of the rules and regulations of the Metro, and they are perfectly safe.

I'm not quite sure why you made this statement, unless you've somehow taken some defensive offence at something I've said.
If you've got these regulations could you please tell me where I could also get them?

And accidents happen. It doesn't mean the railway is inherently unsafe, it mess someone somewhere has made a mistake and this mistake has caused a crash.

I've never implied anything is unsafe, but if an accident did happen you'd hope that the metro unit didn't fall to pieces like most trams would.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would it?

Because the regulations could be allowing mainline running of units that wouldn't be allowed to do so in Germany or France.

 

[142094]

I'm not finding it easy to come across the precautions and associated regulations of the Tyne-and-Wear metro.

You won't, as they are not online and are internal only.