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New Somerset & Dorset - are they serious?

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Tiny Tim

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The New Somerset & Dorset (not to be confused with other similar sounding groups) make the following mission statement on their website:

"Whilst the New S&D will primarily be a modern passenger and freight railway offering state of the art trains and services, we will also restore the infrastructure to the highest standards and encourage steam working and steam specials over all sections of the route, as well as work very closely with existing heritage lines established on the route."

When many heritage railways struggle to restore a few miles of track, the New S&D aims to rebuild an entire network. Are they to be taken seriously? Read more at:

http://somersetanddorset.blogspot.com/
 
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Teaboy1

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Gosh they don't half pick their moment ....... massive recession, chronic unemployment rates ..... Euro Zone in imminent meltdown ..... credit squeeze etc etc.
Nothing about where the money is coming from so for that reason .... I'm out !!
 

Tiny Tim

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Check out the maps of new engineering works, including a link from Midford down to the GWR Midford Branch and onto the mainline at Limpley Stoke, giving access via the main line to Bath Spa station. They aren't trying to reopen Green Park Station in Bath, that would be silly!
 

fgwrich

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Check out the maps of new engineering works, including a link from Midford down to the GWR Midford Branch and onto the mainline at Limpley Stoke, giving access via the main line to Bath Spa station. They aren't trying to reopen Green Park Station in Bath, that would be silly!

Really...

Here are a few thoughts on the 'Mendip main line project',and the new S&D:
(a)- MSN station and its environs.

Great work has been done at MSN station over the past 13 years, not least in 2001 when the station came under threat of redevelopment for housing; securing its future was not easy!
More recently, we have seen the signal box brilliantly rebuilt, the platforms resurfaced, gardens re-established, double track restored etc. However, if the late '50s atmosphere is to be recreated, many small tasks (which are seldom, if ever mentioned by the trust) need to be completed. These include: replacment finials on the signalbox + guttering leading down to a replacement water barrel on its Shepton side; reinstated lamps (to look like the original ones, but don't have to be gas); small metal posts with wires through them along the length of the garden by the up platform (look closely at Ivo's photos if you don't believe me- the small rudimentary fence can be seen behind the running board). Finally, proper replica 'running in' boards need to be made. The present ones look amateurish and are the wrong size (the originals were about a foot tall and probably consisted of a metal name plate attached to a larger piece of wood).
More major projects include the rebuilding of the greenhouse; the lean-to against the signalbox; the small sheds next to the toilet block and the associated platform gate, and finally, the lamp hut. Although the present loo block is 70s, this does't really matter, as the original was about the same size. Perhaps it will be replaced in a few years.
All of the above are just things which I (and probably other S&D fans) have noticed, and are by no means a slur on the marvellous work which has already been achieved. It would just be good to know that these things pipeline! Can anybody with inside knowledge let me know, please?
Of all the reconstruction taking place, the only disappointing part is the decision to put the down starter at the end of the platform instead of where it should be on the bank. Perhaps it will be restored to its original position (for sighting reasons, at least) when trains come into the station from Radstock, and eventually, Bath.

(b)-Civil engineering projects on the 'new S&D'.

The track length is constrained by two things- the infilled cutting and the missing Silver street bridge. As for the cutting, instead of spending millions digging it out, they could pay an expert a few hundred pounds to take a deep sample including the waste building materials. If toxins were found in the sample (as is likely) the government would be obliged to give substantial funds towards its excavation (if not pay for the whole thing!).
Fairly recently, there has been much speculation about the design for the replacement bridge over Silver street. A lifting bridge has been declared unnecessary, so we can have a conventional one. Why not aim for something resembling the original-i.e. a girder bridge with masonry abutments? These abutments could be incorporated into a high, new limestone wall along the edge pavement which would suport, and allow for the enlargement of the astronomical garden. The only difference from the scene of the 50s should be that the bridge is longer. The trust have stated that they intend to build a single track bridge, but if a double track one becomes availiable, surely they will take this. If one does not come up, funding will have to be raised to double it ourselves. The new bridge over somervale road should be built to accomodate double track (although for a while a cyclepath will share it).
Unfortunately, Sustrans plan to put a cycle track on the routh between Radstock and MSN. This will mean that the extension to Radstock will be single track. However, when it is proved that we are serving a genuine transport need, Sustrans will have to put their path elsewhere as we double the line. Thed trust should have emphisised this from the begining- before Sustrans poked their nose in!!
The trust should act now to safe guard the future of Redan bridge, Baker Robinson's bridge and the Chilcompton station site.
There are eight missing bridges between MSN station and Masbury, and (I think) a further five to Shepton. Almost all of these will be easy to rebuild as most were girder bridges, but what about burnthouse and Coalpit lane bridges? Will these both be rebuilt as twin brick arches on masonry abutments? I hope so!! It will make the 'new S&D' authentic, and allow for the recreation of all those famous shots!
At Binegar station site, the bungalow across the platforms will have to be purchased and demolished, as deviation of the route here would be VERY difficult.

(c)-The image of 'The mendip mainline project'.

The trust needs to be more clear about its objectives. Restoration of the route between Radstock and Shepton is a good medium term goal. This needs to be mentioned on the trust's website. We need to be ambitious if we are going to attract investment. Upon reaching Radstock, hopefully the council will support us in reaching Bath Green Park again. This reopenrd stretch will be well used! Making a connection at Templecombe will be the next big step.
All the volunteers at MSN have done great work to date. Keep it up, and thanks for making a start on what is going to be a major project-rebuilding the whole S&D.

Followed by
The first thing to bear in mind that a return to Bath may be 10 or even 20 years away. The world will be a very different place then with huge energy constraints and very different priorities.

We have three options for the return to Bath

1) To connect with the GWR main line near Bath, running into Bath Spa station.


2) To connect just north of Midford to the former Camerton line making a junction with the Bath-Salisbury line at Limpley Stoke

3) To return to Bath Green Park.

Whilst option 3 is not discounted, for operational and financial reasons it will probably make more sense to connect with the network and share facilities at an expanded Bath Spa.

Bear in mind that we also plan to reopen the Midsomer Norton-Bristol via Pensford route which will give us another network connection to the north. This is partly to address capacity restraints at Bath, as well as restraints on the mainly single line section north of Midford.

However Sainsbury's and Bath Council will probably at some point in the future BEG us to rebuild to Bath Green Park, Sainsbury's in particular will need a way to bring produce and customers in once cars are no longer viable for most of us. So far from being a barrier they are likely to become prime supporters for obvious reasons!

But we will always make the decision which is best for us

http://somersetanddorset.blogspot.com/2009/01/midsomer-norton-extension.html

Yeah...Somehow i don't think Sainsburys would actually beg the new S&D to come to them...As for this idea that in 15 or 20 years, the car will become totally uneconomical for everyone - tougher maybe, but totally uneconomical? :lol:


On the other hand, it's nice to see how things should be done over at Midsomer Norton!
 

Tiny Tim

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Wow, I hadn't spotted that returning to Green Park was still on the agenda. The Midford/Limpley Stoke link is the option shown on the map. I'm fairly familiar with Bath, bringing the railway back into Green Park would be some task.
 

The Decapod

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The 'New Somerset and Dorset Railway' / Mendip Mainline appears to be a website promoting a fanciful proposal to reopen the S&D throughout its old route as a passenger / freight railway.

It should not be confused with the other S&D organisations that have actually restored stations and / or rolling stock. The website should, in my opinion, make it more clear that it's not closely connected with these more realistic groups.
 
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Tiny Tim

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To be fair to the New S&D, they don't claim to be allied to any of the other organisations. Equally, none of the other groups seem to acknowledge the New S&D's existence. I wonder why.
 

fgwrich

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True, but a reader could still gain the impression that there is a connection. I know I was confused when I first found sites to do with the S&D!

Especialy when the New S&D website covers news of the various groups along the route, along with the wording of the comments as of above - which at first glance would make it look as if they do have a connection with MsN.
 

Ivo

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We have three options for the return to Bath

1) To connect with the GWR main line near Bath, running into Bath Spa station.

2) To connect just north of Midford to the former Camerton line making a junction with the Bath-Salisbury line at Limpley Stoke

3) To return to Bath Green Park.

Whilst option 3 is not discounted, for operational and financial reasons it will probably make more sense to connect with the network and share facilities at an expanded Bath Spa.

OK. Let's get one thing straight here. Most of the old S&D line into Bath is now a cycleway. Much of it was being converted at roughly this time last year to make cycling on the route more attractive. They are considering doing away with this. Next, most of the route between what is now Linear Park and Green Park has been built over. They can say about Sainsbury's all they want, but the fact is that the *only* vehicular access route into Sainsbury's uses the former S&D bridge. People like having vehicular access to large supermarkets. And then, finally, Green Park itself is no longer suitable for a station site. It would need massive work done to it and plenty of potential eviction implemented to bring such a scheme to reality.

As for the other ideas, again, neither is practical. Where would they intend to join the GWML for Option 1? The only obvious place is somewhere fairly close to the point at which the lines formerly crossed, when one is virtually perpendicular to the other. Unless they plan on having carriages 5m long then such a turn will not happen (and even then it probably won't :lol:). Option 2 is certainly the most feasible - but they'd have to build a pretty impressive bridge to breach everything immediately west of the line, such as the river. And how would they expect to fit in at Bath Spa anyway? The only possible location would be the current south side car park - when they've only just finished redeveloping the southern side of the station, including impleneting a new entrance.

In other words, forget it - unless you plan on building a peripheral station somewhere, which to even remotely justify would entail a change of route given the relative obscurity of the Midford area. They should worry more about restoring a link for Midsomer Norton to the network - or am I giving them ideas...?
 

YorkshireBear

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It does sound pretty ridiculous to be honest, i think the heritage lines around there could do well though. Good market on a much loved old mainline (love as in people think it should have remained open). If they can get it right they could form themselves a nice heritage railway. Need to get steam in as soon as possible as that is the money bringer!
 

ACE1888

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I'll be totally honest with this one, I'm a huge S&D 'fan' and am a member of both Midsomer Norton and Shillingstone projects, and i did join the 'New S&D' as it was only a 'Fiver' just to see what it was about, I hardly received anything at all from them, and the continual 'Peak Oil' thing about anything bar rail for the future (pure fantasy in my book, like it or not) got on my 'wick' rather quickly, so i didn't renew it when the renewal came through. Rightly or wrongly, to me, it's pure fantasy to think the WHOLE S&D route can be restored, unless Billions came from Government for some new Network schemes. Just my opinion, but it's not for me at all.
 

GearJammer

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I'll be totally honest with this one, I'm a huge S&D 'fan' and am a member of both Midsomer Norton and Shillingstone projects, and i did join the 'New S&D' as it was only a 'Fiver' just to see what it was about, I hardly received anything at all from them, and the continual 'Peak Oil' thing about anything bar rail for the future (pure fantasy in my book, like it or not) got on my 'wick' rather quickly, so i didn't renew it when the renewal came through. Rightly or wrongly, to me, it's pure fantasy to think the WHOLE S&D route can be restored, unless Billions came from Government for some new Network schemes. Just my opinion, but it's not for me at all.

If your a member of the Shillingstone project can i sugest you leave a donations box or something out, i done a delivery to the industrial unit next door just before xmas and while they unloaded my truck i had a good nosey around, it was quite pleasane early in the morning when no one was about.... i was gonna leave a donation.. but alas, no where to leave it!

Suitably impressed with what i seen, although somebodies got there work cut out with that 9F, and the MK1 coach!
 

Chris125

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This was discussed at length on NatPres, i'd reccomend people take a look. It quickly became clear that neither the person spearheading the project, nor anyone else, could come up with a rational explanation for how peak oil would lead to the rebuilding of the S&D - it just looks like a railway enthusiast looking for a reason why the S&D would be rebuilt when in reality there isnt one, even if the formation was completely clear.

The simple problem is that even if Peak Oil led to rural lines being rebuilt, for which i never saw a convincing argument, the S&D would be still be a very poor case for reinstatement.

Chris
 

Tiny Tim

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'Peak oil' does seem to be a rather odd reason to justify the rebuilding of the S&D. One of the other factors mentioned on the website is the importance of the towns/cities served, but apart from Bath, Bournemouth and maybe Bridgwater, (all already blessed with mainline services) the rest of the route seems to visit rather one horse towns, in fact mostly villages. Of course it would be nice to have all our old railways back, but that's not likely to happen. The S&D probably isn't the best candidate for a large restoration.

So, if the S&D isn't ideal, what is? Is there a line or network that is crying out to be rebuilt?
 

ainsworth74

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So, if the S&D isn't ideal, what is? Is there a line or network that is crying out to be rebuilt?

Beverly - York or Woodhead (though having said that both have at least one major problem with the old track bed).
 

Tiny Tim

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I've heard the case for the reopening of the Woodhead route, and it's fairly compelling. I've only just located the Beverley-York line, and I'm not familiar with the area. What makes this a prime candidate for resuscitation?
 

Eagle

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One of the other factors mentioned on the website is the importance of the towns/cities served, but apart from Bath, Bournemouth and maybe Bridgwater, (all already blessed with mainline services) the rest of the route seems to visit rather one horse towns, in fact mostly villages.

Wimborne and Broadstone? Both largish towns (pop. 20,000+ each) in the sprawling SE Dorset conurbation (pop. ~400,000). Admittedly both would be better served by rebuilding the old route of the SWML via Ringwood and Wimborne.
 

ainsworth74

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I've only just located the Beverley-York line, and I'm not familiar with the area. What makes this a prime candidate for resuscitation?

To be honest I'm probably being a bit blinded by regional bias ;))) but it would be very useful for the region for two reasons:

1) It would give better links between Hull and York

and

2) It would help deal with the congestion on the A1079 (which effectively parallels the route). There are big road based commuter flows in that area and having a decent frequency (say half-hourly) between Hull and York calling at Market Weighton, Pocklington and Stamford Bridge would pick up a lot of traffic from the roads. And if you were forward thinking enough gave the Market Weighton station a lot of parking you might find it acted as a draw for people from Driffield travelling to York.

As I said it probably isn't the once of the most deserving but it would certainly have some big benefits to the local region.
 

martinsh

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Wimborne and Broadstone? Both largish towns (pop. 20,000+ each) in the sprawling SE Dorset conurbation (pop. ~400,000). Admittedly both would be better served by rebuilding the old route of the SWML via Ringwood and Wimborne.

I'm surprised you let him get away with describing Blandford Forum as a "one horse town" !!
 

Eagle

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Blandford is a one-horse town. The horse being the Army Signalling Corps, and when/if that gets moved over to St Athan Blandford'll just be another small and ordinary provincial town.
 

ChrisCooper

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The private car is here to stay, even if not in it's present form. There are too many odd journies people make that aren't viable by public transport, especially in rural areas. Cars will just increasingly use alternative fuels. Electric cars are near the cliff edge between being niche and mainstream, and as oil prices go up they come nearer to that edge. In 10 - 20 years time they should be over it. Either that of there will be big changes to society, people will travel less full stop. Why get the train to Sainsbury's when they will deliver to your door? People will probably work from home more too.
 

Tiny Tim

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I'm surprised you let him get away with describing Blandford Forum as a "one horse town" !!

I'm sorry if Blandford is a town close to your heart, I know it well myself, but much larger settlements are, and have been for many years, without access to railways. There's no good reason to think that Blandford deserves a railway more than 100 others.


Flanders & Swann; The Slow Train; "No more shall I go to Blandford Forum or Mortihoe".
 

Chris125

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The private car is here to stay, even if not in it's present form. There are too many odd journies people make that aren't viable by public transport, especially in rural areas. Cars will just increasingly use alternative fuels. Electric cars are near the cliff edge between being niche and mainstream, and as oil prices go up they come nearer to that edge. In 10 - 20 years time they should be over it. Either that of there will be big changes to society, people will travel less full stop. Why get the train to Sainsbury's when they will deliver to your door? People will probably work from home more too.

The 'New S&D' seem to think people will just stop using their cars, lorries will stop delivering goods, and we'll just go back to how things were a hundred years ago - and this from someone who loves to mention that he's got a degree in economics.

Trying to explain why its not that simple fell on deaf ears unfortunately...

Chris
 
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Ivo

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Ddin't the original S&D extension to Bath effectively bankrupt the company? I am sorry to say that history would be likely to repeat itself if they really did try the full extension. By all means link up a couple of places with already-existing stations, say Midsomer Norton to Frome, but otherwise don't bother - even then however, they would be using the wrong alignment out of Norton.

One other thing is that a lot of their claims for an extension to Bath are based on Sainsbury's traffic. Realistically once you are south of Midford or (at a push) a local station or two south of it, there demand for this will be effectively zero. They would have to introduce several local stations in Bath to justify it, by which time they would be better off looking at a PPM idea... which few would appreciate over the bus given the latter's more direct route and higher frequency.
 

Tiny Tim

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Ddin't the original S&D extension to Bath effectively bankrupt the company?

Many of our rural railways were less than profitable even in their heyday (whenever that was). It's difficult to be precise about any particular company, as mergers, takeovers and joint running (like the S&D) mask the underlying economic situation. Nevertheless, long before Dr Beeching swung his notorious axe, many lines were quietly losing money. Some small railway companies never paid a dividend to their shareholders. Some railways (such as the Midland & South Western Junction) operated for long periods 'in chancery' - i.e. bankrupt.
 

PUFFINGBILLY

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All a bit too silly and fanciful. Trainspotters gone mad.
No way would it ever re-connect to Bournemouth at the southern end. Houses would need demolished and a river bridge built at Blandford and er hello! there are houses and a huge road in Broadstone and mmm I'm sure there was no Bournemouth West station when I was there last week, a by-pass for Westbourne yes.
 

Tiny Tim

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Another major engineering challenge is the route to Highbridge. Diverting from the original line it crosses the M5 before joining the mainline south of Highbridge Station. I'm guessing a bridge is proposed. Unless they're planning a level crossing on the motorway.
 

Kinghambranch

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Blandford is a one-horse town. The horse being the Army Signalling Corps, and when/if that gets moved over to St Athan Blandford'll just be another small and ordinary provincial town.
The Royal Signals Camp at Blandford is part of DCCIS (Defence College of Comms & Info Systems). The plan to move all Defence Technical Training to MOD St Athan under Metrix, a Private Finance Initiative, was cancelled in October 2010. Current Government policy is to move at least some of the training to RAF Lyneham in Wiltshire (GWR territory!). It may well be that Blandford Garrison remains for quite some time yet. Blandford needs its railway back.
 
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