Tilting trains in the South-West region?

[Laryk]

Given that the railway from Exeter to Penzance is so twisty bendy curvy (whatever it should be called), and that a true high speed line is quite unlikely at the moment, how feasible would having proper Intercity titling trains running on this line (I'm thinking ICE TD, not Voyager) and how much time would be saved?

 

[150222]

I would have thought they wouldn't bother as the Dawlish sea wall is likely to erode eventually.

 

[HSTEd]

I would have thought they wouldn't bother as the Dawlish sea wall is likely to erode eventually.

Anyone told the people living in Dawlish?

I doubt they would let the line close and leave the embankment undefended, especially after the debacle in the Meadows.

I always wondered why the tilting train (TASS) systems were never more widely deployed, was it simply because the guaging work is expensive and noone else had any interest in tilting trains?

 

[brad465]

I always wondered why the tilting train (TASS) systems were never more widely deployed, was it simply because the guaging work is expensive and noone else had any interest in tilting trains?

Maybe many saw the APT failure and just went, "Nah whats's the point"

 

[Laryk]

I would have thought they wouldn't bother as the Dawlish sea wall is likely to erode eventually.

Ahh, yeah I forgot about Dawlish.
So a new route further inland will eventually be the only viable solution, especially when if (don't want to get into any climate change rows :roll seas begin to rise.
What about before there is a new super-awesome high speed route, when we are in need of new rolling stock? I guess we will have generic tried-and-tested DMU's, and it will become much less of an Intercity route.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's only a couple of months ago NR were quoted somewhere as saying they are obliged to maintain the Dawlish sea wall under their licence terms, and they already have plans for major renewal work around 2020 onwards, ie in CP6.

 

[Laryk]

they already have plans for major renewal work around 2020 onwards, ie in CP6.

That's good to hear.

 

[Zoe]

Given that the railway from Exeter to Penzance is so twisty bendy curvy (whatever it should be called), and that a true high speed line is quite unlikely at the moment, how feasible would having proper Intercity titling trains running on this line (I'm thinking ICE TD, not Voyager) and how much time would be saved?

There are some fast straight sections between Exeter and Newton Abbot already and also an 80 mph section at Hemerdon. The issue is that there isn't much demand for rail travel from Plymouth and improving the line speed or allowing tilt would not likely see a significant increase in demand to justify the investment.

 

[HSTEd]

There are some fast straight sections between Exeter and Newton Abbot already and also an 80 mph section at Hemerdon. The issue is that there isn't much demand for rail travel from Plymouth and improving the line speed or allowing tilt would not likely see a significant increase in demand to justify the investment.

There could be significant day-tripper traffic from the South East to Devon and Cornwall if the journey time was shorter, unfortunately it would have to be upgraded to a rather high standard to get journey times down far enough to make it worthwhile.

(3hr30 to Penzance or something)

 

[Wath Yard]

Day-tripper traffic doesn't pay for a massive upgrade, which is what would be required. The best the South West can hope for is IEPs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I always wondered why the tilting train (TASS) systems were never more widely deployed, was it simply because the guaging work is expensive and noone else had any interest in tilting trains?

I agree.
The only bit fitted with TASS away from the WCML was at Heyford south of Banbury, but VXC let it go and Arriva XC soon also gave up tilt on Birmingham-Manchester by isolating tilt on their 221s.
This surely reduces capacity on the North Staffs route?

There are loads of places which could benefit from TASS, even if just for 221s.
They haven't even fitted the 60mph curves at Albion and Tipton between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, which get 3tph tilting VT trains (would be 5tph if XC used it). That would allow 75 throughout on this line.

Even on the WCML it isn't installed north of Carstairs (except for a tiny stretch near Motherwell) or Carstairs-Edinburgh, or Acton Grange-Wigan.
Apart from Devon/Cornwall, the northern stretch of the ECML (north of Ferryhill) is twisty, as is most of the MML.
Beeston Castle between Crewe-Chester (75 in an otherwise 90 line).

I always thought tilt was one of the great successes of the 221/390 fleets (their raison d'etre after all), so it's a pity to waste the capability.

 

[dk1]

There are some fast straight sections between Exeter and Newton Abbot already and also an 80 mph section at Hemerdon. The issue is that there isn't much demand for rail travel from Plymouth and improving the line speed or allowing tilt would not likely see a significant increase in demand to justify the investment.

I think if the London services where on-board then it may have happened. Trouble is although there most definatley is business travel on Voyagers to/from the South West, it is predominently leisure traffic often on heavilly discounted tickets. Unfortunatley the XC (previously Virgin) services could not support TASS on their own.

 

[Zoe]

I think if the London services where on-board then it may have happened. Trouble is although there most definatley is business travel on Voyagers to/from the South West, it is predominently leisure traffic often on heavilly discounted tickets. Unfortunatley the XC (previously Virgin) services could not support TASS on their own.

Even for London services, the demand just isn't there for Plymouth. It's all very well providing a 2 hour journey time between Plymouth and London but there is no evidence that there would be the increase in demand to justify this investment. There were fast flights from Plymouth to London but the airport has now closed so I don't think there is that much demand for fast journey times from Plymouth to London.

 

[The Planner]

This surely reduces capacity on the North Staffs route?

Not really, runs on a 3 minute headway and the difference is rarely more than 15mph between EPS and MU/normal differentials.

They haven't even fitted the 60mph curves at Albion and Tipton between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, which get 3tph tilting VT trains (would be 5tph if XC used it). That would allow 75 throughout on this line.

Only 1 Virgin per hour in each direction and it would save you a matter of 10-15 seconds at best, better things to spend cash on than that.

 

[jopsuk]

I agree.
The only bit fitted with TASS away from the WCML was at Heyford south of Banbury, but VXC let it go and Arriva XC soon also gave up tilt on Birmingham-Manchester by isolating tilt on their 221s.

Maybe there would have been more drive to roll out TASS everywhere possible on the XC network had all the Voyagers been Super?

 

[MK Tom]

Only 1 Virgin per hour in each direction and it would save you a matter of 10-15 seconds at best, better things to spend cash on than that.

Two, one Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh and one Euston-Wolverhampton.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not really, runs on a 3 minute headway and the difference is rarely more than 15mph between EPS and MU/normal differentials.

Well that's an argument for not bothering with tilt at all if it makes no difference (actually the North Staffs differentials are often 20-25mph).
I just think if tilt is worth it, it should be used to the full.
Roll-out on diesel lines can't be difficult.

 

[TheWalrus]

This is something ive wondered about on this route. Im surprised people are saying demand isnt there for plymouth. On the padd fasts these services are usually full, in first class too!

 

[The Planner]

Well that's an argument for not bothering with tilt at all if it makes no difference (actually the North Staffs differentials are often 20-25mph).
I just think if tilt is worth it, it should be used to the full.
Roll-out on diesel lines can't be difficult.

Not what I said, it makes little difference over that route with what it is required to run. South of Rugby you couldn't run the timetable without it. Tipton and Albion are examples where cost would outweigh benefit as they are relatively short sections.

 

[asylumxl]

I'm not really clued up in the technicalities but having travelled this route many times in the past, I'd imagine that clearances in places would also prevent this happening. Especially on the viaducts.

 

[Chris125]

The best the South West can hope for is IEPs.

...even if the IEP happens, the bi-modes wont have enough power to keep time on the gradients down there so HST's will be here to stay - the South West will probably have to wait for electrification to see new(er) rolling stock, presumably cascaded Voyagers/Meridians/180's, if the IEP goes ahead.

Chris

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not what I said, it makes little difference over that route with what it is required to run. South of Rugby you couldn't run the timetable without it. Tipton and Albion are examples where cost would outweigh benefit as they are relatively short sections.

The RUSs for West Mids/North West always have "poor journey times between Birmingham and Manchester" as a major issue - something the HS2 Y is supposed to fix in 20 years time.
But on the ground nothing is being done to address this, despite already having the capability.
On the North Staffs timetable, I though it was a problem shoehorning the NT and EMT stoppers in between 2tph tilting VT and 2tph non-tilting XC?

 

[GingerSte]

Bearing in mind the holidaying nature of a lot of the travellers down to the south west, does the gauge allow for caravans to hitched up to the back of trains?

 

[brad465]

Bearing in mind the holidaying nature of a lot of the travellers down to the south west, does the gauge allow for caravans to hitched up to the back of trains?

Can you do that ?!?

 

[LexyBoy]

Can you do that ?!?

It used to happen all the time; caravans would have a removable undercarriage fitted with railway wheels attached at the Motorail terminal at Paddington. The caravans would then be coupled behind the vehicle-carrying wagons down to Cornwall. Here's a photo of one such train.

As caravans got more reliable, the demand waned; in addition by the 80s many caravans were too large. The last MotoCaravan service ran in August 1987.

 

[HSTEd]

It used to happen all the time; caravans would have a removable undercarriage fitted with railway wheels attached at the Motorail terminal at Paddington. The caravans would then be coupled behind the vehicle-carrying wagons down to Cornwall. Here's a photo of one such train.

As caravans got more reliable, the demand waned; in addition by the 80s many caravans were too large. The last MotoCaravan service ran in August 1987.

Yes, Run by Top Gear railways?

 

[Bald Rick]

I always wondered why the tilting train (TASS) systems were never more widely deployed, was it simply because the guaging work is expensive and noone else had any interest in tilting trains?

Because it's not just TASS. If the speed is to be raised, all the other 80 odd factors that limit linespeed have to be checked and possibly worked on.

Why is the Voyager not a 'proper' tilting train and yet the ICE-TD is ?

 

[Laryk]

Why is the Voyager not a 'proper' tilting train and yet the ICE-TD is ?

Because I was being selfish. I know both of them tilt, but given the current "Intercity" trains from Paddington-Penzance that will need replacing eventually, I would prefer something of a similar nature.

 

[Requeststop]

Given that the railway from Exeter to Penzance is so twisty bendy curvy (whatever it should be called), and that a true high speed line is quite unlikely at the moment, how feasible would having proper Intercity titling trains running on this line (I'm thinking ICE TD, not Voyager) and how much time would be saved?

Switchback is the term I've used for a long time regarding the twisty bendy curvey etc.

Regarding faster services, there are two ways to look at this question.

Do people from the far South West want to get beyond the region faster - no not really - there is a great sleeper service that means you can have a day out to London by leaving home for the sleeper at a resonable time, and arrive at Paddington fairly refreshed and have a decent breakfast at the Hilton before heading into the smoke to do the days activities, shopping, business, touristy things etc. Catch a concert/show in the evening - see the things that never make it down to the village hall until the amateurs do it in 25 years time, and make your way back to Paddington and catch the sleeper home. No need for ultra high priced hotel rooms in the capital.

Do people from the smoke really want to get down to the far South West faster - no - in my experience the trains are full of people returning home from London - and overwhelmingly most get off the Penzance services at Exeter/Newton Abbott, the rest of us enjoy the trip south of Dartmoor, to Plymouth thankful they have gone, and at Plymouth the trains fill up with the Cornish who rather than spend all their money going to London, use the cheap day return to do their shopping in Devon (spits on the floor) and give a cheer (mental or not) when we cross back over the Tamar!

Airlines are now useless for faster travel. Plymouth Airport is closed. No flights from Exeter to London, and we lost flights from Newquay to London last year for good it seems. Where I come from a slowish relaxed train journey from home to London, preferably by sleeper is far better than a 45 mile journey from home, west of St.Ives to Newquay airport, getting there the required time before take off and a second journey from Gatwick to Central London.

What is needed though is a better faster more comfortable run from Exeter eastwards, and to Bristol and the Midlands and beyond - in the HS-2 debate the excitement is about connecting this 'Y' to London - Wonderful for the Midlands, Manchester and Leeds, but the line and connection to the West, South and South West to the Midlands and thence to the remainder of the nation will become a backwater and will wither away I fear.

Get the connections to Exeter right and then the slower journer on the switchback west of the Exe will be all the more worth while, and I and many others can still enjoy my sleeper service from Penzance to Paddington!

 

[starrymarkb]

Fast links are desired though - I see Cornwall wants to take on the A30 in order to complete the dualing that central government won't fund...