Tension Between Staff And Enthusiasts On This Forum

[Rhondda Rudie]

As a fairly new and admittedly sporadic poster I note with dismay the evident animosity between staff and enthusiasts on this forum.Much of this ill feeling is on display in answers to 150222's posts.I agree his posts could have have been worded better but despair at the hostility shown to him.

That said,I also think enthusiasts should be aware that questioning the actions of staff on the basis of some knowledge of railway working can be annoying and demoralising.I'll give you a "for instance".

Some years ago we at Treherbert depot had a turn which involved working an empty train from Treherbert to Aberdare early in the morning.This train comprised a pair of 2 car units.When we got to Pontypridd a Cardiff crew would join the train.When we arrived at Aberdare the Treherbert guard would operate the ground frame,all 4 cars would go "up over" and the train would split.The Treherbert driver would then drop 2 cars back into the platform and his guard would shut the ground frame and join him.The Cardiff crew remained with the other unit and work the next service,30 minutes later.

I was working this turn one morning.There are 4 levers on the Aberdare ground frame,number 4 controlling the "dummy" from the platform allowing trains to go "up over".When he released the ground frame to me the signalman informed me that the dummy controlled by lever 4 was inoperative and I would have to contol the movement by handsignals.He also asked me to return to the train and tell the driver to use the signal post telephone so he could brief him.

The man who worked in the ticket office was a life log rail enthusiast but a newcomer to the industry.He must have came out of the office when the driver was passing the red light and couldn't see me controlling the movement because the train was in between him and I.When we arrived at Cardiff Central the driver and myself were taken off the train and questioned because the clown in the ticket office had reported the driver for passing a red signal.
Obviously once it became clear what had actually happened the "inquest" was over in 2 minutes flat but the incident left a sour taste and I gave the bloke a real mouthful next time I saw him.

I was back on the train at Aberdare station a good 10 minutes before departure that day so all the booking clerk had to do was ask me what had happened. I think this story demonstrates the importance of knowing how to ask a question.

 

[150222]

Hmm, Indeed. Thank you for that and I will bear that in mind.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A very good and well detailed posting to start off this thread, together with details of actual operational instancies, from a member of the rail industry.

One of the best postings that I have ever read on this forum.

 

[TDK]

A very good and well detailed posting to start off this thread, together with details of actual operational instancies, from a member of the rail industry.

One of the best postings that I have ever read on this forum.

Agreed, I think maybe the peson being spoken about here is a trol maybe and revels in the reponses given!

 

[150222]

Agreed, I think maybe the peson being spoken about here is a trol maybe and revels in the reponses given!

I don't think so mate. I am also not a spotter or a 'jobsworth'.

 

[ainsworth74]

Agreed, I think maybe the peson being spoken about here is a trol maybe and revels in the reponses given!

I don't think so mate. I am also not a spotter or a 'jobsworth'.

Gentlemen you've already used one thread to argue backwards and forwards might I ask on behalf of the rest of us that you not takeover another thread with your disagreements?

 

[amcluesent]

As a average Joe Pax, I've found a variety of views from the 'old timers' on this forum, but have been criticised for just pointing out when things aren't as they should be.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have a simple answer to anyone who feels they know my job better than myself (who has never actually done it)...Get the job, do the job, get the experience


and THEN tell me if I am doing it correctly or not!

 

[Pumbaa]

I don't think anyone has tried telling anyone how to do their job (Sic ANG). I think the OP makes a very good point, which TDK re-inforces it in the first 2 lines of post 3 if anyone missed it.

I repeat my sentiments from earlier - there is another forum already available for staff to ridicule anyone non-staff who challenges or questions the status quo, I certainly don't want to read it here thanks.

 

[tony_mac]

There are obviously times (such as when the guard is roaring drunk!), that members of the public should complain, for everybody's safety.
We are only talking about a matter of what degree is relevant - I don't think there is a need for the unpleasantness. (Although, I understand where it comes from).

 

[Schnellzug]

is a "Jobsworth Spotter" one who spots Jobsworths, or a Spotter who is a Jobsworth?

 

[bluenoxid]

As a fairly new and admittedly sporadic poster I note with dismay the evident animosity between staff and enthusiasts on this forum.Much of this ill feeling is on display in answers to 150222's posts.I agree his posts could have have been worded better but despair at the hostility shown to him.

That said,I also think enthusiasts should be aware that questioning the actions of staff on the basis of some knowledge of railway working can be annoying and demoralising.I'll give you a "for instance".

Some years ago we at Treherbert depot had a turn which involved working an empty train from Treherbert to Aberdare early in the morning.This train comprised a pair of 2 car units.When we got to Pontypridd a Cardiff crew would join the train.When we arrived at Aberdare the Treherbert guard would operate the ground frame,all 4 cars would go "up over" and the train would split.The Treherbert driver would then drop 2 cars back into the platform and his guard would shut the ground frame and join him.The Cardiff crew remained with the other unit and work the next service,30 minutes later.

I was working this turn one morning.There are 4 levers on the Aberdare ground frame,number 4 controlling the "dummy" from the platform allowing trains to go "up over".When he released the ground frame to me the signalman informed me that the dummy controlled by lever 4 was inoperative and I would have to contol the movement by handsignals.He also asked me to return to the train and tell the driver to use the signal post telephone so he could brief him.

The man who worked in the ticket office was a life log rail enthusiast but a newcomer to the industry.He must have came out of the office when the driver was passing the red light and couldn't see me controlling the movement because the train was in between him and I.When we arrived at Cardiff Central the driver and myself were taken off the train and questioned because the clown in the ticket office had reported the driver for passing a red signal.
Obviously once it became clear what had actually happened the "inquest" was over in 2 minutes flat but the incident left a sour taste and I gave the bloke a real mouthful next time I saw him.

I was back on the train at Aberdare station a good 10 minutes before departure that day so all the booking clerk had to do was ask me what had happened. I think this story demonstrates the importance of knowing how to ask a question.

What the story demonstrates is when to ask the question as a member of staff, which should have been posed to you when it happened in an ideal world, not afterwards.

Questions are going to be asked by various people with different levels of knowledge as you go about your duties that you are performing in the public domain. They have the ability and quite clearly the right to ask the question through appropriate channels either at the time or subsequently. This example shows a member of staff, not the public.

I don't have to tell you whether I think you are doing your job right but whether I have concerns about how you are doing your job. That might seem the same thing but if people are concerned, we need to relieve them of that concern. There are people out there who think travelling by train dangerous, yet hops into their car without a second thought. If they think that all they are going to get is a mouthful from closed ranks, you lot are more likely to get more of the investigations that come from above. They won't talk to you, they will go through other channels and they are much tougher to deal with and take up more time.

TDK - I think you need to look in the mirror before accusing someone of being a troll because you are quite clearly flaming, which is one of the behaviours that a Troll demonstrates.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I have a simple answer to anyone who feels they know my job better than myself (who has never actually done it)...Get the job, do the job, get the experience


and THEN tell me if I am doing it correctly or not!

My feelings too. I am happy to help on the forum or at work if people are asking questions (up to a point), but I worked damned hard to get my train operating licence and it was only given to me because I proved that I knew and understood all the relevant bits of the rule book, all the local instructions, all the required aspects of traction knowledge plus all the required route knowledge. Personally I find it annoying to be told 'you're doing it wrong' by someone who has never worked a train in their life and has had no training other than what they have seen other people do.

I have no ill-feeling towards 150222 but the pattern that has emerged is one of somebody who is a little too inquisitive, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't answer a genuine question from that person.

 

[sonic2009]

Was there a need for this thread in the first place? It's creating Tension and Dissagrements.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

My feelings too. I am happy to help on the forum or at work if people are asking questions (up to a point), but I worked damned hard to get my train operating licence and it was only given to me because I proved that I knew and understood all the relevant bits of the rule book, all the local instructions, all the required aspects of traction knowledge plus all the required route knowledge. Personally I find it annoying to be told 'you're doing it wrong' by someone who has never worked a train in their life and has had no training other than what they have seen other people do.

I have no ill-feeling towards 150222 but the pattern that has emerged is one of somebody who is a little too inquisitive, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't answer a genuine question from that person.

I have no ill feeling towards anyone here..never have, but with the utmost respect to anyone wishing answers to questions, please remember a few things.

whether you feel you are right or not, 99.9% of railway workers are very professional in our roles and yes we do find it a bit insulting if some people insinuate we are doing it incorrectly without any training of the role concerned.

Please try and word questions where it does not look like you are accusing Rail staff of being unprofessional (obvious exceptions include drunkedness, Total rudeness yadda yadda)

If you do feel that a member of Rail staff is acting dangerously or in a way that does not go anywhere near professionalism by all means report it (any responsible member of Rail staff would do the same) but do it through the correct channels and not leave identifiable details on a forum where management watch as there could be unknown circumstances)



bottom line to keep this forum as successful as it has been we need to work together, we will always have disagreements and certain things will get up all our noses whether we are staff, enthusiasts or just the average passenger, as long as we think before we post, and take deep breaths before replying on some posts we will all get a long swimmingley

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If you do feel that a member of Rail staff is acting dangerously or in a way that does not go anywhere near professionalism by all means report it (any responsible member of Rail staff would do the same)

Isn't that exactly what the office clerk was doing in the first post?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I don't think anyone has tried telling anyone how to do their job (Sic ANG). I think the OP makes a very good point, which TDK re-inforces it in the first 2 lines of post 3 if anyone missed it.

I repeat my sentiments from earlier - there is another forum already available for staff to ridicule anyone non-staff who challenges or questions the status quo, I certainly don't want to read it here thanks.

I have never once ridiculed anyone on this forum over a 1000 posts and you will not find one!

HOWEVER I do find it insulting if anyone challenges my integrity and I will continue to help out and answer questions of a reasonable nature. I will not though let people accuse other staff of something unprofessional (unless the obvious) until they either have done the job or is at least had experience in a role that is very similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't that exactly what the office clerk was doing in the first post?

I don't think anyone in there right minds would question that

I feel I have stated my position very clearly

 

[Geezertronic]

It's the same with any job I suppose, there is always someone who thinks a job could be done "better". Take the Police for example, they seem to be in a no win situation most of the time against agressors.

 

[150222]

ANorthernGuard: I will bear your advice in mind however I will say that you could never have identified anyone from any of my treads.

 

[Pumbaa]

I have never once ridiculed anyone on this forum over a 1000 posts and you will not find one!

I didn't say you had - I was using your post as a starting point for my argument

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

What the story demonstrates is when to ask the question as a member of staff, which should have been posed to you when it happened in an ideal world, not afterwards.

Questions are going to be asked by various people with different levels of knowledge as you go about your duties that you are performing in the public domain. They have the ability and quite clearly the right to ask the question through appropriate channels either at the time or subsequently. This example shows a member of staff, not the public.

I don't have to tell you whether I think you are doing your job right but whether I have concerns about how you are doing your job. That might seem the same thing but if people are concerned, we need to relieve them of that concern. There are people out there who think travelling by train dangerous, yet hops into their car without a second thought. If they think that all they are going to get is a mouthful from closed ranks, you lot are more likely to get more of the investigations that come from above. They won't talk to you, they will go through other channels and they are much tougher to deal with and take up more time.

TDK - I think you need to look in the mirror before accusing someone of being a troll because you are quite clearly flaming, which is one of the behaviours that a Troll demonstrates.

Yes my story concerned a staff member but my point is still valid.He approached the incident from the assumption of wrongdoing.I explain operational procedures to passengers on a regular basis.Yesterday for example I explained the token system to a charming elderly couple who asked how we made sure 2 trains did not end up on the same stretch of single line.

In fact,I think you make my point for me rather well.If the staff member in question had asked me "How come you passed that red light?" he would have received a friendly and detailed explanation.Instead he subjected the driver and myself to the indignity and inconvenience of an inquiry into an incident where we did nothing wrong.THAT's why he got a mouthful next time I saw him.

 

[Greenback]

If anybody sees a post that they do not think is appropriate, pelase report it. The level fo activity on the forum has grown significantly in the last few months, and the admins cannot read every post in every thread, so we rely on that little 'report post' button that you will find on the left hand side of every post - it's the little speech bublle with the red 'x' for anyone who does not know.

In the meantime, I don't think we really need another thread to discuss this, so I am locking it (but not deleting it).

 

[O L Leigh]

I have no problems with enthusiasts generally. They sometimes ask interesting questions and I am always happy to share my knowledge.

However, there have been times when I feel that I'm going over the same explanations again and again because it has been deemed unacceptable. It does make me annoyed, as I've been here regularly for some years now and yet there are still the same issues. I do take issue with people who constantly pull me up time and again because the railway does not operate in the way they think it should and it makes me angry when I get told I'm incompetent, inflexible, an H&S jobsworth or whatever else folk choose to call me.

I'm sorry that there is still this bad atmosphere on the forum. I had said the same six months ago and have worked long and hard with the moderators to try and get to the bottom of it. I had hoped that there would be a greater level of respect.

O L Leigh