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Class 175 and 185 dynamic braking

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driver9000

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Do Northern/Newton Heath plan to re-activate the system on their 180s like Hull Trains are doing?

No, they will have left the Northern fleet by December so there is little point in undertaking such major work on them. Any reinstatement of the HD can be done by their next operator.

On a different note, the 14x,15x,158 & 159 brake solely using the friction air brake. If the T211r transmission has a retarder capability it certainly isn't used. I would imagine the 16x and 170 family are the same.
 
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Erniescooper

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You've got me doubting myself now, it's a very long time since I went near a working H-brake so you could very well be right.
The 175 transmission hoses have a jacket on them so if they get holed there won't be any oil spray.
Checked with the VMI and I am wrong, when the H-brake operates drive is disconnected and all the braking is done hydraulically through the transmission.
The Voith control sends a signal to the engine control to increase revs to 1700rpm. This helps the transmission filler pump with the demand from the H-brake, but the primary reason is to increase the speed of the engine water pump to aid cooling. The H-brake will use a little more fuel, but because the engine is not under load it will only be a tiny amount and the savings from much reduced friction brake wear will outweigh this.
 

Philip

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The only problem with hydrodynamic brake is that it dumps a lot of heat into the cooler group in a very short space of time through the transmission oil cooler, the cooler group sometimes struggles with this and either overheats the engine or transmission. The 175 had its cooler group refurbished recently with a new design of radiator which at the moment is proving very reliable and the plan is to do a trial re-introduction of hydro brake in the next few months.

Any update on the last bit? Recently been on 175110 and a couple of the 2-car units and still not to be heard on those in question.

Back in the days when they had H-D brake working, you'd get some 175s that never or hardly ever had the dynamic brake working - think 175112 and 115 were like this, others like 175109 and 110 always had it (until isolated on all of them a couple of years back).
 

Erniescooper

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We had a unit ready to do some testing with hydro brake 3 weeks ago , but unfortunately the promised driver had been borrowed for a service train. From a technical point of view I think we're all set to reinstate but it could become quite a long process as it will involve driver training as it's been such a long time since they worked and they do behave very differently.
 

Philip

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Any updates on this? Recently travelled on 175s; 002, 007, 010, 011, 101, 110 and 111 and definitely no HD brake reinstated on these ones!

On a separate subject...I heard a male automated voice (never heard before) on 175007 the other day, talking about checking for weekend disruption and then the usual announcer randomly said "Thank you for travelling with ARRIVA TRAINS WALES todayyy" - half way between Manchester and Stockport!
 

Erniescooper

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Re-instating the H-brake seems to have gone on the back burner at moment, we,ve just started fitting GSM-R, engine overhaul, new cooler group wiring loom and control, remote TSM downloading, so its a little bit hectic.
As for the announcments we never really hear them as the latest version arrives ready programmed from ATW on a popcard and we just install it on there behalf.
 

ChrisCooper

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No, they will have left the Northern fleet by December so there is little point in undertaking such major work on them. Any reinstatement of the HD can be done by their next operator.

On a different note, the 14x,15x,158 & 159 brake solely using the friction air brake. If the T211r transmission has a retarder capability it certainly isn't used. I would imagine the 16x and 170 family are the same.

16X, 170s and 171s do have the same T211r transmissions as the Sprinters and Pacers, as AFAIK do the 175s. The 180s and 185s have a different transmission due to having more powerful engines.

I think the nature of the British network probably has a lot to do with why we've never gone for dynamic braking as much as other countries. A particular thing is that we've not go the same long, steep decents found in many other places where dynamic braking really provides a big benefit. The only place where it's been common has been on tramways (where rheostatic brakes have been in use since the early 20th century) and the Underground (although not until the late 60s).

It's not just railways either. Dynamic braking has been common for some time on lorries and buses in other countries, especially the likes of America. Again it's the nature of the roads, we don't have the same long steep decents, and were we do they aren't on the sorts of roads that buses and lorries would be using. Exhaust braking also has a noise issue, again not so bad on isolated mountain roads but a problem in the densely populated UK. Exhaust braking on lorries and coaches, and electromagnetic retarders on coaches and buses didn't become common in the UK until the 80s when imports from Europe became more common, including UK manufacturers importing European or American (particularly ZF and Allison) transmissions with built in retarders.

When it comes to other countries using dynamic brakes on long steep decents, it's important to remember that it's not just an issue of brake wear but a safety issue. Overheating brakes can easily cause brake failure and runaways. A heavy freight train or a large lorry that's lost it's brakes going down a steep hill is not a good thing at all, yet had happened, and even today still can happen.
 

Nym

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When it comes to other countries using dynamic brakes on long steep decents, it's important to remember that it's not just an issue of brake wear but a safety issue. Overheating brakes can easily cause brake failure and runaways. A heavy freight train or a large lorry that's lost it's brakes going down a steep hill is not a good thing at all, yet had happened, and even today still can happen.

More frequently than you'd think, as I'm sure you know >7.5 tonne vehicles have brake enabled limiters fitted, and coming down off Ainley Top, I've been overtaken by an older tractor unit pulling a 44ton load before, bearing in mind I was doing 112km/h, and the 44ton vehicle is supposed to be limited to 90km/h, his brakes where nearly on fire thanks to using the brake limiter all the way down the hill, proberbly because a retarder either wasn't used, or wasn't present. Since older vehicles don't have the retarders linked into the limiters, only the brakes and throttles. Was every other week I'd come across an HGV with cooked brakes, but only once have I been overtaken by an HGV (I know for a fact I was doing 112km/h, yay for GPS calibrated limiters ;))

PS: More recently for 3.5 to 7.5 tonne vehicles limited to 90km/h, but I havn't seen one with a brake limiter fitted, although I have seen a retarder and throttle linked limiter on a DAF LF55, although I'm sure it would have put the brakes on down a steep hill, but we only used it round Manchester, Warrington and Liverpool, very rarely to Leeds.
 

Erniescooper

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Haven't heard it mentioned for a while now, the 175 fleet fleet has been going through a change of brake disc and brake pad material that has reduced brake wear an awful lot . Reliability and availability have been brilliant for 12 to 18 months now and I suspect there a little afraid upsetting the status quo.
 

Pacerpilot

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Lots more... ;)
Fine for me, Im very much a Step 1 / LOW driver and I like to leave plenty of braking contingency but it caught a few of the more 'enthusiastic' guys out at first.
 

Erniescooper

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I think your right and we should given have drivers a bit more notice when we switched over to split discs rather just removing than the yellow dots off the front.
 
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Nym

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Why don't you put AP Racing Redstuffs on the ones for enthusiatic drivers and then you can have a series of Class 175 grinders when braking, and bone shakers when not ;)
 
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