Class 175 future

[tbtc]

EMT could usefully exchange their 158s for 175s if additional Sprinters become available but overall I can't really see that working that well and it would have the catering trolley issue with 175s in multiple that ATW would have.

I did wonder about that, but the requirement for four coaches on Liverpool - Nottingham would mess the numbers up.

 

[150222]

I did wonder about that, but the requirement for four coaches on Liverpool - Nottingham would mess the numbers up.

Plus the fact that 175's cannot work im multiple with Pacers/Sprinters/Turbostars!

 

[northwichcat]

Plus the fact that 175's cannot work im multiple with Pacers/Sprinters/Turbostars!

That's an issue wherever they are used. They are only compatible with 180s and if they were joined up it would obviously limit the 180s to 100mph.

Do EMT actually diagram any 158+156 or any 158+153 services?

 

[PHILIPE]

Putting 175s of Holyhead - Birmingham services would be great.

I do wonder how feasible it would be to form some 4 car 175 units for a Swansea - Manchester service.

I had already posted the non feasability of this and as I have said before on the thread, the 158s combine/split at Shrewsbury and again at Machynnleth so no alternative at the moment. 4 Coach 158 formations are essential on these services in addition to their being the Units ETRMS fitted for the Cambrian.

 

[SprinterMan]

Are Class 175s cleared through the Proof House tunnels in Birmingham?
180s aren't, and I thought 175s have the same body profile but a few months ago I saw an evening working from Holyhead to Birmingham worked by an ATW 175.

 

[PHILIPE]

Are Class 175s cleared through the Proof House tunnels in Birmingham?
180s aren't, and I thought 175s have the same body profile but a few months ago I saw an evening working from Holyhead to Birmingham worked by an ATW 175.

Yes, they are. They are cleared right through from Shrewsbury/Crewew to Birmingham International and have a diagrammed working on a Sunday evening. They have had more diagrammed in the past but the need for 158s on these services has already been quoted.

 

[SprinterMan]

Yes, they are. They are cleared right through from Shrewsbury/Crewew to Birmingham International and have a diagrammed working on a Sunday evening. They have had more diagrammed in the past but the need for 158s on these services has already been quoted.

Thanks
How come 175s can go through proof house but 180s can't?

 

[PHILIPE]

Thanks
How come 175s can go through proof house but 180s can't?

Probably there has been no calling for 180s to be checked out as it is off route for them. It dores not necessarily mean that they are unable to.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I think we should all just stick with what we've got, except send 158s on Llandudno-Manchester services and Cardiff-West Wales services.

The Cambrian is fine with 158s, as is Birmingham-Holyhead.

Manchester is best suited for 175s as they're much more comfier.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think we should all just stick with what we've got, except send 158s on Llandudno-Manchester services and Cardiff-West Wales services.

The Cambrian is fine with 158s, as is Birmingham-Holyhead.

Manchester is best suited for 175s as they're much more comfier.

This thread seems to be based on ATW gaining additional 158s. There is little point in speculating until additional ones will come from. From where ?
Agree keep 175s on Manchester to West Wales as I agree they are far more comfier. 158s seem so drab internally.

 

[150222]

That's an issue wherever they are used. They are only compatible with 180s and if they were joined up it would obviously limit the 180s to 100mph.

Do EMT actually diagram any 158+156 or any 158+153 services?

Yep, Some Skegness services are 158 & 153. Also a 156 will cover a 158 if one fails on Liverpool to Norwich.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Agree keep 175s on Manchester to West Wales as I agree they are far more comfier. 158s seem so drab internally.

Yeah, the new 158s aren't too bad but I do think 175s are best for Cardiff-Manchester as I say.

 

[Rhydgaled]

are you intending a Cambrian hourly, plus a Holyhead not via Wrexham ? as there are no paths to do that between Wolves and International.

Yes, that was what I mean't. Sorry, I had foolishly assumed (partly because somebody else suggested routing Holyhead - Birminghams via WCML with either 180s or 175s) that by not going via Wrexham and Shrewsbury the Holyhead - Birminghams would avoid that capacity bottleneck (which I've been told about on here before). Having checked a rail map, I now realise the Holyhead - Birminghams would probably still need to traverse the same Wolverhampton - Birmingham line and hence that idea wouldn't work.

This thread seems to be based on ATW gaining additional 158s.

Largely yes, but I have suggested a few mark 2 rakes on Manchester - Swansea as an alternative.

I think we should all just stick with what we've got, except send 158s on Llandudno-Manchester services and Cardiff-West Wales services.

The Cambrian is fine with 158s, as is Birmingham-Holyhead.

Manchester is best suited for 175s as they're much more comfier.

I disagree that 2-car 175s are better than 2-car 158s, but agree the Manchester - Swansea (perhaps with some extensions to Carmarthen) should really be formed of 3-car 175s (although some 4-car ones (if removing cabs is possible, I'd still like to know if anyone thinks it more feesible than building extra centre cars) and/or LHCS rakes probably wouldn't go amiss).

I think that (159s aside) 158s were the best choice of unit to restrict the Cambrian line to, and that dictates Birmingham - Holyhead stock leaving only a few (especially once there is an hourly Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury service) 158s for the new Cardiff - Pembrokeshire services (with more lessor Sprinters needed to fill the Swansea - Carmarthen - Milford Haven gap). There might not even be enough units for that, and even if it does it leaves the north Wales coast to make the most of the remaining 175s, certainly not enough 158s to do Manchester - Llandudno too (which is a shame, since I doubt there are paths into Manchester to run a Holyhead - Manchester service and using 158s would allow a unit for Holyhead to split off the existing Llandudnos).


To finish this post, I wonder what the arrangments at Manchester with Llandudno and Carmarthen/Milford services? Do they use the same platforms (or do the Llandudno trains even go to Piccadilly, I forget), and if so could they interwork so a unit coming up from Swansea then runs the Llandudno service?

 

[150222]

There was a tread on that a few weeks ago. Can't link on my phone. It was called 'A simple solution'. (In general discussion. Last post 2/1/2012).

 

[ValleyLines142]

To finish this post, I wonder what the arrangments at Manchester with Llandudno and Carmarthen/Milford services? Do they use the same platforms (or do the Llandudno trains even go to Piccadilly, I forget), and if so could they interwork so a unit coming up from Swansea then runs the Llandudno service?

Llandudno services come from the Oxford Road direction so terminate on platform 13, reverse and go back out on 14 I believe.

Cardiff and West Wales services usually use either 6, 7 or 8 at Piccadilly, whatever is available, it mixes a lot as a Bristol Voyager and a London Pendolino arrive around the same time so they just slot in wherever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

YI disagree that 2-car 175s are better than 2-car 158s, but agree the Manchester - Swansea (perhaps with some extensions to Carmarthen) should really be formed of 3-car 175s (although some 4-car ones (if removing cabs is possible, I'd still like to know if anyone thinks it more feesible than building extra centre cars) and/or LHCS rakes probably wouldn't go amiss).

I don't know about LHCS, it's not appropriate if you ask me sorry :P it would make us look tacky and as if we can't afford decent rolling stock. 175s all the way! :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that (159s aside) 158s were the best choice of unit to restrict the Cambrian line to, and that dictates Birmingham - Holyhead stock leaving only a few (especially once there is an hourly Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury service) 158s for the new Cardiff - Pembrokeshire services (with more lessor Sprinters needed to fill the Swansea - Carmarthen - Milford Haven gap). There might not even be enough units for that, and even if it does it leaves the north Wales coast to make the most of the remaining 175s, certainly not enough 158s to do Manchester - Llandudno too (which is a shame, since I doubt there are paths into Manchester to run a Holyhead - Manchester service and using 158s would allow a unit for Holyhead to split off the existing Llandudnos).

10 trains are needed to run the Llandudno service, and there's like twenty-five 158s with Arriva, that's more than enough isn't it? :P there's only twenty-seven 175s in the entire fleet and 14 of them are for Cardiff services so that can't be case surely?

 

[150222]

Llandudno services come from the Oxford Road direction so terminate on platform 13, reverse and go back out on 14 I believe.

Cardiff and West Wales services usually use either 6, 7 or 8 at Piccadilly, whatever is available, it mixes a lot as a Bristol Voyager and a London Pendolino arrive around the same time so they just slot in wherever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't know about LHCS, it's not appropriate if you ask me sorry :P it would make us look tacky and as if we can't afford decent rolling stock. 175s all the way! :P

How do you think we feel?

Seriously, A capacity increase is more important than asthetics!

 

[ValleyLines142]

How do you think we feel?

Seriously, A capacity increase is more important than asthetics!

Therefore, let's buy some new stock. Or make longer 175s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Llandudno services come from the Oxford Road direction so terminate on platform 13, reverse and go back out on 14 I believe.

Cardiff and West Wales services usually use either 6, 7 or 8 at Piccadilly

So they don't, and can't, interwork Manchester - Llandudno and Manchester - south Wales diagrams. Thanks.

I don't know about LHCS, it's not appropriate if you ask me sorry :P it would make us look tacky and as if we can't afford decent rolling stock. 175s all the way! :P

I personally think that, externally, the WAG express mark 2s (the mark 3 buffet car would look even better were it not for the slightly out of place way they display it is as first class) and the refurb 158s (the silver 158s too when clean) look much smarter than 175s due to the 175's bland shape and even blander standard Arriva livery. Give the LHCS a decent refurb and livery like the WAG express set has had and it wouldn't look bad. ATW own some LHCS anyway, so that might avoid some of the lease costs. I'd say the LHCS would be decent rolling stock, and it can probably be prepared faster than a new build. Yes we would look like we couldn't afford brand new rolling stock, but that's because we can't afford brand new rolling stock (and if we can, it should be class 377s for the ValleyLines in my opinion, make do and mend with the only spare diesel stock available, which is LHCS, is the only other way of increasing capacity quickly).

10 trains are needed to run the Llandudno service, and there's like twenty-five 158s with Arriva, that's more than enough isn't it? :P there's only twenty-seven 175s in the entire fleet and 14 of them are for Cardiff services so that can't be case surely?

Before you make that claim, try and work out how far ATW's 24 (that's what Wiki claims anyway) 158s strech. Remember they need to do:
Pwllheli - Birmingham International - about 5 and a quarter hrs
Aberystwyth - Birmingham International - 3hrs 20mins
Holyhead - Birmingham Int. - 4hrs one way, 4hrs 27min the other
All every two hours (the Aberystwyth and Pwlheli trains join to make a 4-car into Birmingham), and there's a 19min dwell in Birmingham. Some Holyhead - Birminghams might keep the four coaches that came in from the Cambrian, others might loose 2 coaches at Shrewsbury.

There's also the matter of extra Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury trains (1hr 55mins) which will take another three 158s out of the fleet (if the Holyhead - Birminghams are all two car north/west of Shrewsbury then you might get that requirment down to two units by coupling the extra Aberystwyth trains onto the Holyheads to make up the 4-car between Shrewsbury and Birmingham, but then there is not likely to be any 4-car ATW DMU services on the North Wales coast).

 

[northwichcat]

To add a bit of a twist to this someone working on the Northern Hub proposals has said a Llandudno-Yorkshire service is now looking very likely in the form of a Llandudno-Manchester-Halifax-Leeds service. If Llandudno-Manchester gets moved to a new franchise then ATW may have to give up some stock.

 

[Rhydgaled]

To add a bit of a twist to this someone working on the Northern Hub proposals has said a Llandudno-Yorkshire service is now looking very likely in the form of a Llandudno-Manchester-Halifax-Leeds service. If Llandudno-Manchester gets moved to a new franchise then ATW may have to give up some stock.

Where would they find the stock for that? ATW would only be able to free the units used on the Llandudno service, there's no slack in the 175 fleet to give any more units than this new service would free up, and going right through to Leeds probablly would require more than 3 coaches. A lot of 158s would have to be released by Scotrail wires to cover that, and it would release a group of 175s that is probablly too small to be worth maintaining away from Chester.

 

[northwichcat]

Where would they find the stock for that? ATW would only be able to free the units used on the Llandudno service, there's no slack in the 175 fleet to give any more units than this new service would free up, and going right through to Leeds probablly would require more than 3 coaches. A lot of 158s would have to be released by Scotrail wires to cover that, and it would release a group of 175s that is probablly too small to be worth maintaining away from Chester.

The Northern Hub proposals assumes extra stock will be made available. It is unclear exactly where the stock will come from but as some lines currently get doubled up units at peak times and the proposals are for additional services I imagine it could simply involve splitting up doubled up services to run two services instead of using the two units on one service.

For a Llandudno-Leeds service no extra stock is actually required as it is joining two services together but it will require one unit running a through service opposed to a 144/155/158 on one part and a 175 on another part. There is also plans for an additional Chester-Warrington-Manchester service possibly continuing to the Airport, which will require a few extra units and will probably mean 3 carriages on the Llandudno-Manchester section will be adequate for most services. I also imagine off-peak that the Llandudno-Manchester services will be speeded up by not calling at Helsby and Frodsham.

If services are increased you could well see non-ATW staff and units based at Chester. They'll be three local services running out of Chester that don't go in to Wales:
* Chester-Crewe
* Chester-Warrington-Manchester
* Chester-Altrincham-Manchester

There's also proposals for a Greenbank-Denton-Victoria service, which may have units stabled at Chester overnight as you can't leave units at Greenbank overnight.

It could even be that management of Chester station is switched, which would make sense as it's currently an English station managed by the Welsh franchise. One proposal for the new 'Northern' franchise is for a sort of Northern PTE managed franchise, so if that goes ahead it would make the transfer in management for Chester station all the more logical.

In fact thinking about it may even make sense for ATW to have their units and crews based at Manchester or/and Crewe instead of Chester if they lose the Llandudno-Manchester service as ATW would operate more services from Crewe and Manchester than from Chester.

 

[tbtc]

To add a bit of a twist to this someone working on the Northern Hub proposals has said a Llandudno-Yorkshire service is now looking very likely in the form of a Llandudno-Manchester-Halifax-Leeds service. If Llandudno-Manchester gets moved to a new franchise then ATW may have to give up some stock.

Could be a good use of any 185s freed up by the TPE electrification (both in terms of capacity and ability to climb the Calder Dale hills)

 

[northwichcat]

Could be a good use of any 185s freed up by the TPE electrification (both in terms of capacity and ability to climb the Calder Dale hills)

Yeah it would be a good route for 185s but I think there may need to be an interim measure between the Ordsall Chord coming in to use and the 185s becoming available.

I actually should have said in my earlier post that while the cascaded stock from North West electrification is earmarked for extra capacity for North of England services, that could include extra services, like an extra Manchester-Warrington-Chester service, as well as adding capacity to existing services.

One thing I'm surprised about this thread in general is I haven't noticed one person commenting about the trolley service on ATW services. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone actually buys from them or realises that trains could depart from stations quicker if trolleys didn't switch between portions.

 

[tbtc]

Yeah it would be a good route for 185s but I think there may need to be an interim measure between the Ordsall Chord coming in to use and the 185s becoming available.

I actually should have said in my earlier post that while the cascaded stock from North West electrification is earmarked for extra capacity for North of England services, that could include extra services, like an extra Manchester-Warrington-Chester service, as well as adding capacity to existing services

I think that Manchester - Chester gets a terrible service, considering the size of the two places and the relative affluence (surely this could justify a First Class service, even though many routes in northern England cannot).

There are going to be a lot of "interim" stages around Manchester over the next decade, as the various infrastructure projects are completed - there will maybe be a few routes changed, then changed back, as the electrification map (and Ordsall Curve etc) changes. Could get quite confusing, especially with franchise boundaries.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that Manchester - Chester gets a terrible service, considering the size of the two places and the relative affluence (surely this could justify a First Class service, even though many routes in northern England cannot).

I think that's one of the disadvantages of the conversion of the Sale line to Metrolink. Chester-Altrincham-Manchester used to be 73 minutes and class 101/150 operated, so while it was still longer than the Warrington route, it was a better alternative with proper trains.

Both lines between Manchester and Chester are most stops. That isn't that relaxing for end to end services. I personally think Chester would be better off with 2 Merseyrail services per hour to Liverpool and 2 DMU services per hour to Liverpool via the Halton Chord calling at Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway only.

 

[Rhydgaled]

One thing I'm surprised about this thread in general is I haven't noticed one person commenting about the trolley service on ATW services. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone actually buys from them or realises that trains could depart from stations quicker if trolleys didn't switch between portions.

Well, trolleys are only a small part of my reasoning, but I don't think I've suggested any 4-car services unless they are 158 operated, LHCS or achived by creating 4-car 175s by converting driving cars to centre cars (has nobody any idea whether that is possible?) Hence I have been suggesting ways of avoiding the problems of joining two non-corridor units together, even though I haven't actually stated what these problems are.

For a Llandudno-Leeds service no extra stock is actually required as it is joining two services together but it will require one unit running a through service opposed to a 144/155/158 on one part and a 175 on another part.

Hardly a good idea to have Pacers on Llandudno-Leeds service is it? Ok, there would be a mix of Pacers, 175s and Sprinters but you need to find some stock to replace the Pacers at least.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I cannot help thinking this has already been mentioned but here goes. I know its been suggested that Chester could gain the 180s. But my thought is even if Chester acquired SOME of the 180s. I assume they are similar enough that some centre coaches (re-geared ?) could be used from 180s to lengthen the 2-car 175s to 3 car. Chester need not even get the shortened 180s just the released centre cars.

I always thought it shortsighted making 2-car units without end corridor connections. HSTs are OK but even 5-car 221s are a bit of a maybe. LM saw sense getting their 2&3-car 172s with corridor connections at the cab ends. A bit cramped for the driver I know but who are these trains for ?.

However I cannot see many 180s being freed up before electrification in GW area. Anyway there will be sooner some cascades nearer to Chester as the NW electrification hapens (or at least when Siemens has delivered enough new Thameslink units).

What electification would more quickly solve the need to strengthen the 175s ?.

 

[northwichcat]

I cannot help thinking this has already been mentioned but here goes. I know its been suggested that Chester could gain the 180s. But my thought is even if Chester acquired SOME of the 180s. I assume they are similar enough that some centre coaches (re-geared ?) could be used from 180s to lengthen the 2-car 175s to 3 car. Chester need not even get the shortened 180s just the released centre cars.

The Chester depot is the best place for the 175s to be maintained. However, there are very few services starting and terminating at Chester on the regular pattern at present:
1. Chester to Crewe
2. Chester to Chester via Liverpool Central circular route
3. Chester to Manchester via Altrincham
4. Chester to London (approx 50% of services don't continue in to North Wales)

Only the 1st route is an ATW route and that's not exactly a route 175s should be on when there are 142s on busier and longer routes. This means a lot of unnecessary moves to get stock to and from other places. Even though the 175s have already been based at Chester, when they were used on Airport services some were stabled at Longsight overnight but that is no longer the case, even though that ATW run services starting at Manchester, due to ATW having their crews based at Chester and there not being any interworking between operators, like existed previously.

 

[jones_bangor]

Having spent a long 2 1/2 hours on an ex-Wales & west Silver 158, dogeared and with several misted up double glazed window units, I can safely state that the last thing ATW need is more past it hand me downs!

 

[PHILIPE]

Going back to the topic title, why would 175s be having a different future anyway. They are alright as they are. Re location of Depot at Chester, it is handily placed for the ATW routes over which they work ovr. The only ECS required is between Chester and Llandudno Jn and between Chester and Crewe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Llandudno services come from the Oxford Road direction so terminate on platform 13, reverse and go back out on 14 I believe.

Cardiff and West Wales services usually use either 6, 7 or 8 at Piccadilly, whatever is available, it mixes a lot as a Bristol Voyager and a London Pendolino arrive around the same time so they just slot in wherever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't know about LHCS, it's not appropriate if you ask me sorry :P it would make us look tacky and as if we can't afford decent rolling stock. 175s all the way! :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


10 trains are needed to run the Llandudno service, and there's like twenty-five 158s with Arriva, that's more than enough isn't it? :P there's only twenty-seven 175s in the entire fleet and 14 of them are for Cardiff services so that can't be case surely?

6 trains only are required for Llandudno to Manchester not 10 and are 3 Coach 175s, 3 being required for loadings on the route especially during the Summer months.