The Big Lemon - end of route 42

[robertclark125]

As stated in Stagecoach north west Fleet changes by Cainebj, today, the Big Lemon recently withdrew its route 42

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9416378.Lemon__squeezed_out__as_Brighton_bus_firm_axes_route/

The route 44 mentinoed in that article only runs weekdays. During the day, it runs between the campuses, every 30 minutes, extending to the city centre only at nights. Then, the service is hourly.

Thoughts?

 

[Ivo]

Are they still complaining about B&H being bullies even though they've done nothing wrong? This was inevitable I'm afraid...

 

[robertclark125]

Are they still complaining about B&H being bullies even though they've done nothing wrong? This was inevitable I'm afraid...

Yes they are.

 

[trentside]

They certainly managed to attract a lot of derision from within the industry with their various stunts, the most notorious of which was getting their passengers to write to the Traffic Commissioner in an attempt to avoid a fine for withdrawing their service before the 56 day notice period was up.

 

[ushawk]

They were never going to compete with B&H in all honesty, so its unsurprising its been withdrawn, maybe if they ran a new route which B&H didnt, then it may be successful but thats hard as the city is well covered already.

Obvious what people will choose - 1 route which runs every 30 mins with a ticket that is only valid on that route or another route which is every 5 or so minutes and tickets which allow journeys to places like Eastbourne.

 

[Schnellzug]

Didn't they claim that they were going to Transform Travel?

 

[ushawk]

Yeah, they had plans for an "eco-network" accross the South using eco friendly buses, mainly all long distance routes too like Eastbourne - Uckfield - Tonbridge - all unrealistic too.

 

[robertclark125]

They certainly managed to attract a lot of derision from within the industry with their various stunts, the most notorious of which was getting their passengers to write to the Traffic Commissioner in an attempt to avoid a fine for withdrawing their service before the 56 day notice period was up.

Never heard about this one Trentside. Can you provide more details?

 

[trentside]

Never heard about this one Trentside. Can you provide more details?

Here you go;

http://omnibuses.blogspot.com/2007/12/lemon-latest-twist.html

 

[robertclark125]

Hmm, interesting Trentside.

What gets me is we have some small operators, The Big Lemon being one of them, that call for a level playing field, then accuse the big boys of not doing things by the book. All of a sudden, the small operator, like TBL, is trying to not do things by the book, and that seems to be accepted.

A level playing field is just that, LEVEL. The rules are there for everyone to abide by, not just the big boys. Smaller operators, suffering at the hands of the big boys, have to abide by the same rules, whether they like it or not.

 

[ushawk]

Wouldnt say The Big Lemon were suffering - they knew what they were letting themselves in for and their demise is ultimately their fault (although they will obviously claim its B&H's fault).

 

[WillPS]

The whole thing resonates with me as well-intended but fundamentally misguided.

The thing is with misguided ventures is they have a habit of seeking to blame somebody other than themselves for their own failure.

 

[Statto]

The whole thing resonates with me as well-intended but fundamentally misguided.

The thing is with misguided ventures is they have a habit of seeking to blame somebody other than themselves for their own failure.

I agree, although i'm not familiar with Brighton & Hove & Big Lemon Bus, it's a similar scenario in what happens up & down the UK when a small operator starts services competing with one of the big groups by making big claims about transforming travel ecc, they then get a fleet of elderly vehicles, when the main company has modern low floor vehicles, & only operate a couple of routes. Then the operator starts whinging that the big operator is driving them out of business, the operator does not realise it's they themselves who are the problem. Most passengers don't want to catch buses that are quite old, they want comfortable modern vehicles. Looking at the fleetlists the average age of the B&H fleet is about 6 years, the average age of TBL is nearer 15/16 years, plus with the operating area & times of B&H theres no contest.

 

[robertclark125]

I agree, although i'm not familiar with Brighton & Hove & Big Lemon Bus, it's a similar scenario in what happens up & down the UK when a small operator starts services competing with one of the big groups by making big claims about transforming travel ecc, they then get a fleet of elderly vehicles, when the main company has modern low floor vehicles, & only operate a couple of routes. Then the operator starts whinging that the big operator is driving them out of business, the operator does not realise it's they themselves who are the problem. Most passengers don't want to catch buses that are quite old, they want comfortable modern vehicles. Looking at the fleetlists the average age of the B&H fleet is about 6 years, the average age of TBL is nearer 15/16 years, plus with the operating area & times of B&H theres no contest.

According to an industry website, the newest bus in the Big Lemon fleet was 15 years old. It could well be the Volvo B10M-55 that Cainebj mentioned in the Stagecoach North West fleet changes thread, which is a possible preservation candidate.

 

[cainebj]

It is a classic example, but it has only been rather recently when B&G has heavily expanded onto routes covered by the big lemon, reducing the fares on those routes, while other routes suffered increases to balance it out. B&H were also only selling dayriders on night services after midnight, so a student would wake up to a valid dayrider, rather than go to purchase their regular Big Lemon day ticket. I don't have any figures to back up my theory, but I would imagine that B&H were running a a loss on those routes, to force Big Lemon out of play, then they'll shove their fares right up on their next round of increases to make a profit on the route again.

Big Lemon's fleet was rather old, consisting of 1 K reg B10M, 1 L reg B10M, 1 or 2 M reg B10M's, 2 M reg Dennis Darts and 3 N/P reg Mercedes minibuses (for service 44). An old fleet cuts down costs, and for able bodied students, the step entrance shouldn't be an issue, and wasn't an issue up until B&H filled the place with low floors, including the large bendy's.
Just further evidence of the big boy always wins.

 

[Deerfold]

It is a classic example, but it has only been rather recently when B&G has heavily expanded onto routes covered by the big lemon, reducing the fares on those routes, while other routes suffered increases to balance it out. B&H were also only selling dayriders on night services after midnight, so a student would wake up to a valid dayrider, rather than go to purchase their regular Big Lemon day ticket. I don't have any figures to back up my theory, but I would imagine that B&H were running a a loss on those routes, to force Big Lemon out of play, then they'll shove their fares right up on their next round of increases to make a profit on the route again.

As far as I can tell B&H have run very frequent services identical or very similar to the 42 for many years. True, B&H have decreased fares on the services (though I'm not sure there's really enough impact to claim it's had an effect on other fares), but what are they supposed to do? Just ignore someone wanting to take what were formerly their passengers? Presumably they had the advantage of selling dayriders on night services because the Big Lemon didn't do night services?

Big Lemon are very good at not appealing to people who aren't students (or students who don't leave Brighton when there's no lectures) as their service just gives up for weeks at a time.

Successful incomers that I've seen have generally had something to distinguish them from the incumbent operator - operating low floors or going into the housing estate that was previously unserved or providing an express version of the existing route - or had really deep pockets. Just doing something similar to the existing buses but with older buses has little chance of long term success (unless, perhaps there are interavailable tickets - there's a few smaller operators in the PTE areas who probably only survive because people can get the first bus to come along).

 

[robertclark125]

Worth mentioning as well that this isn't the first time that The Big Lemon tried to run a service. That was in 2007, and it ended in tears as well.

 

[Deerfold]

Worth mentioning as well that this isn't the first time that The Big Lemon tried to run a service. That was in 2007, and it ended in tears as well.

If you want to outshine the local operator, it's easier if it's one that isn't as good as B&H. Other operators have taken over quite a few commercial routes from First in Halifax with their main tactic being actually turning up when the timetable says they will.

 

[BestWestern]

It sounds very much as though TBL thought that they would carve out a niche market for themselves with their intended target group of students and eco-hippies. Having since discovered the harsh reality that most people would rather travel on a smart vehicle operated by a big firm with a high frequency and plenty of journey options, they've now decided to tread the dangerous path of pulling stunts in a desperate bid to stay in business.

As with all these situations, the market will ultimately determine what is wanted, and who wins. TBL can take silly potshots at B&H until the cows come home, but the simple fact is the passengers are getting on the big red and cream buses, not the little yellow ones. It's the same sort of mentality we have to suffer when Tesco or whoever want to open a local store. They'll fight tooth and nail to stop it, and then when it opens and half the local community are quite happily shopping there they still keep shouting, failing to understand the obvious irony and pointlessness of their argument.

B&H are one of the country's best operators, there is absolutely no need for anybody else trying to muscle in on their patch since they are doing a perfectly good job. Hopefully TBL will call it a day, or the traffic commissioner will do it for them, and this sorry saga can be put to bed.

 

[robertclark125]

The Big Lemon are saying the stickers on B&H buses with the £2.50 fares have gone, and are asking people to look for them, and e-mail them to TBL. I cannot understand why Tom Druitt will not give it a rest.

On another thing, some photos on Flickr show The Big Lemon stickers on B&H buses. If these have been stuck on by TBL staff, then that counts as vandalism. Just what would it have been like if TBL had gone onto other routes, and tried the same stunts.

 

[BestWestern]

The Big Lemon are saying the stickers on B&H buses with the £2.50 fares have gone, and are asking people to look for them, and e-mail them to TBL. I cannot understand why Tom Druitt will not give it a rest.

On another thing, some photos on Flickr show The Big Lemon stickers on B&H buses. If these have been stuck on by TBL staff, then that counts as vandalism. Just what would it have been like if TBL had gone onto other routes, and tried the same stunts.

To be honest this guy is just beginning to sound like a total prat now, and if he has indeed been responsible for vandalising a competitor's buses then he has failed the basic requirement to be 'fit and proper' to hold an O-License. B&H have all-round external CCTV on most of their vehicles I believe, I hope they are using it to identify where and by whom these stickers may be appearing, and ideally they should be sending TBL management a bill for advertising at their standard rates, along with a threat of court action.

TBL needs to be very careful not to stir this up into something nasty, which will do them and their directors no good at all. There are bound to be a few pot smoking morons amongst their target audience who would relish the opportunity to take up arms against a 'corporate bad guy', thankfully so far it appears that the majority are able to appreciate the far superior service provided by a proper operator.