Travelled in First Class on a Standard Class ticket

[shotayo]

For reasons which should become clear later on, I shall not name the train I was travelling on yesterday.

I currently hold two 7 day weekly season tickets, Worcester stns & W mids all zones and Birmingham stns & Wrexham General. I caught a Virgin Train from Birmingham New Street Station (travelling to Crewe) yesterday and sat in first class.
When the TM ask for my ticket I showed my Birmingham to Wrexham General season ticket, the TM asked if I wanted to pay for an upgrade, I replied that it was my understanding from National Rail Enquires that an "Anytime" ticket subject to the speaking to the TM had no charge. The TM stated that ..." it is only applicable on long distances..." although he was aware that that was not the wording on the NRE website.

The situation finished with a Penalty Fare Notice for a Full First Class ticket being issued to me.

Any suggestions on my nexct course of action would be greatly received

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Penalty fare notice? VT don't operate such. Do you mean an unpaid fare notice?

 

[dvboy]

Why do you have a BHM-Wrexham season ticket? You only need one from Wolverhampton which is in NWM Zone 5.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . the TM asked if I wanted to pay for an upgrade, I replied that it was my understanding . . . .

Just to be clear, did the Inspector give you a free choice? (i.e. you may move to Standard Class, get off at the next stop, buy an upgrade etc. and you chose the latter?)

Is your request here for advice on how to deal with the notice? And are you telling us that you have not paid for the upgrade?
Exactly what form have you been given? I'm not familiar with a 'Penalty Fare Notice for a Full First Class ticket'.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A season, no matter for how long, is not an anytime ticket, it is a season ticket.

If it is valid in first class subject to the guards approval and the guard says no, it is not valid.

My thoughts on the next course of action? Pay the UFN.

 

[dvboy]

On weekends and Bank Holidays, upgrades to First Class on Virgin Trains is free of charge if holding a Standard Class Anytime ticket by approaching the Train Manager.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/first_class_upgrade.html

According to your post, you didn't approach the TM, you waited for him to ticket-check you.

 

[embers25]

"On weekends and Bank Holidays, upgrades to First Class on Virgin Trains is free of charge if holding a Standard Class Anytime ticket by approaching the Train Manager."

The above is from National Rail so based on this why should he move even if asked by the TM as its not down to TM discretion according to Nat Rail. It also makes no mention of distance and in theory this means even Birmingham to Wolverhampton is fine provided you buy the anytime day return not the off peak.

In the thread on this a few months ago (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46369&page=2) it was claimed Virgin don't allow Anytime Day tickets altho Nat Rail says just "Anytime"! Certainly this means I could have sat in first class with my ticket to Belfast via Stranraer though which is annoying to find out now as the return is and SOR. Not sure of it still is now tho after the rail sail changes.

 

[yorkie]

There is insufficient information to provide advice here.

A Season ticket is a Season ticket, not an Anytime ticket, so it doesn't make sense. Is there a typing mistake in the original post? Or some misunderstanding?

Also a Penalty Fare cannot be charged on Virgin Trains. An unpaid fare notice for a Weekend First upgrade would surely be what was issued?

 

[Anvil1984]

A season ticket is not an "Anytime" ticket which is being forgotten here. Yes it allows him to travel anytime but it is still a season ticket which has different terms and conditions

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry, I'm confused.

A season ticket is not an Anytime ticket. I thought this much was obvious.

Why did you refuse to pay the upgrade?

 

[Greenback]

Do Virgin state anywhere that for the pruposes of the upgrade a season is treated as an Anytime? Honest question, I have no idea since I am in the wrong area for Virgin Trains so don't take much notice of their offers/T&C's!

 

[shotayo]

Clarification

I was issued with an unpaid penatly notice.

With regards to Anytime ticket, according to the NRE an Anytime ticket gives the holder the ability to travel on any train for his journey without time restriction. As far as I am aware this also applies to Season tickets, i.e. no time restrictions on permitted journeys.

I was given the choice to move to standard class, but my point is the following, I was refused this upgrade not because of an objective reason, i.e. first class full, but because the TM believed that this concession was wrong.

That seems to me pushing discretion a bit to far.

 

[Greenback]

Clarification

I was issued with an unpaid penatly notice.

With regards to Anytime ticket, according to the NRE an Anytime ticket gives the holder the ability to travel on any train for his journey without time restriction. As far as I am aware this also applies to Season tickets, i.e. no time restrictions on permitted journeys.

I was given the choice to move to standard class, but my point is the following, I was refused this upgrade not because of an objective reason, i.e. first class full, but because the TM believed that this concession was wrong.

That seems to me pushing discretion a bit to far.

If the concession does not apply to season tickets then the TM was correct, and it has nothing to do with discretion.

If the concession does apply to season tickets, then the TM was wrong, and that has nothing to do with discretion either.

I do not know whether the concession applies to seasons or not. Do you have anything that suggests season tickets are included in the concession?

 

[Old Timer]

Clarification

I was issued with an unpaid penatly notice.

With regards to Anytime ticket, according to the NRE an Anytime ticket gives the holder the ability to travel on any train for his journey without time restriction. As far as I am aware this also applies to Season tickets, i.e. no time restrictions on permitted journeys.

I was given the choice to move to standard class, but my point is the following, I was refused this upgrade not because of an objective reason, i.e. first class full, but because the TM believed that this concession was wrong.

That seems to me pushing discretion a bit to far.

No you were given an objective reason. A Season Ticket is NOT an anytime ticket, it is a Season Ticket which is issued at a cheaper fare than the equivalent Anytiime ticket, and for which there are additional conditions within the Conditions of Carriage.

 

[Anvil1984]

Clarification

I was issued with an unpaid penatly notice.

With regards to Anytime ticket, according to the NRE an Anytime ticket gives the holder the ability to travel on any train for his journey without time restriction. As far as I am aware this also applies to Season tickets, i.e. no time restrictions on permitted journeys.

I was given the choice to move to standard class, but my point is the following, I was refused this upgrade not because of an objective reason, i.e. first class full, but because the TM believed that this concession was wrong.

That seems to me pushing discretion a bit to far.

A Anytime ticket is a point to point ticket allowing one single / return journey between the twon points

A Season Ticket is a point to point ticket allowing unlimited travel between the two.

On the Weekend First part of NRE websites it only mentions Standard Anytime tickets (with the empasis here on the capital letter on Anytime) not season tickets therefore the TM was in the right and unfortunately you received the Unpaid Fares Notice as per the NRCoC for refusing to leave First Class. Discretion doesnt come in to it.

Sorry for being blunt, I do see where you are coming from but you weren't in the right I'm afraid

 

[shotayo]

Please see below the definition of an Anytime Ticket on NRE

What are Anytime tickets?
Anytime fares are fully flexible tickets, with no time restrictions on when you can travel. Perfect for people who need complete flexibility.

I would suggest that the key point hear is flexibility.

A further point could be made that, when upgrading a season ticket from Standard to First, the mechanism used is to treat the ticket as an anytime single and upgrade to the required first class ticket, thus is appears that season tickets are treated as Anytime tickets within the NiCC

 

[ainsworth74]

I have to say that whilst a Season ticket is the equivalent of an Anytime ticket in the way that it's used (as in use it any time on any valid route) it is, however, not an Anytime ticket (it has a different name for a start) and therefore unless Virgin's concession specifically includes Season tickets then I would say it doesn't apply and an upgrade fee was due.

I would think therefore that the next course of action would be to pay what you've been asked.

 

[AlterEgo]

A Season ticket is not an Anytime ticket. Easy.

You refused to pay the upgrade due and you refused to move back to Standard.

I advise you to pay the notice in full as you haven't a leg to stand on.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Clarification

I was issued with an unpaid penatly notice.

Are you absolutely certain that is what you have?

Based on what you have said so far, I'm in agreement with others that you should pay. You were given a choice by the Guard and you made your decision which you should honour.

 

[Old Timer]

Are you absolutely certain that is what you have?

Based on what you have said so far, I'm in agreement with others that you should pay. You were given a choice by the Guard and you made your decision which you should honour.

The West Midlands area through the Coventry - Wolverhampton Corridor is a Compulsory Ticket Area.

 

[Anvil1984]

Please see below the definition of an Anytime Ticket on NRE

What are Anytime tickets?
Anytime fares are fully flexible tickets, with no time restrictions on when you can travel. Perfect for people who need complete flexibility.

I would suggest that the key point hear is flexibility.

A further point could be made that, when upgrading a season ticket from Standard to First, the mechanism used is to treat the ticket as an anytime single and upgrade to the required first class ticket, thus is appears that season tickets are treated as Anytime tickets within the NiCC

Well thats being selective with the quote. Again under Anytime from the same page

When can I use an Anytime ticket?
Anytime Single and Anytime Day (Single and Return) tickets must be used on the date shown on your ticket. For Anytime Return tickets, the outward journey must be made within 5 days, and including, of the date shown on your ticket and return journeys must be made within one calendar month.

You can reserve a seat on many longer distance services and reservations are recommended on busy services.

So that doesnt apply to the season ticket therefore again you are still incorrect in your assumptions

As for ugrading to First Class then again you are wrong

Standard Anytime Return - simply pay the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Single fare

Season Tickets:
At the Ticket Office or on a Train, where there WAS NOT an opportunity to buy ticket:
The difference between the price of the Standard and First Class Single Anytime ticket which would be appropriate at the time of travel (Anytime or Off Peak, depending of the time of day you're travelling).

On the Train, where there WAS an opportunity to buy ticket:
The full First Class Single fare for the journey being made - please be aware that buying a ticket on the train when you had the opportunity to buy beforehand may leave you liable to a Penalty Fare.

Two different mechanisms

 

[Old Timer]

...I would suggest that the key point hear is flexibility.

A further point could be made that, when upgrading a season ticket from Standard to First, the mechanism used is to treat the ticket as an anytime single and upgrade to the required first class ticket, thus is appears that season tickets are treated as Anytime tickets within the NiCC

The key is the name of the ticket.

A Season Ticket is issued at a substantial reduction on the equivalent number of daily Anytime tickets. It is also valid only with a phot ID card unlike an Anytime ticket.

It is a benefit to the passenger that the charge raised is based solely between the Anytime standard ticket price and the actual price due.

Frankly you are lucky that you are not facing a Regulation of Railways 1889 section 5 Prosecution as you have failed to pay the fare for the journey being undertaken.

 

[shotayo]

Interesting responses, the majority seem to feel that this is an open and shut situation. Hmmmm

 

[AlterEgo]

Interesting responses, the majority seem to feel that this is an open and shut situation. Hmmmm

But it is.

You didn't have an Anytime ticket. You had a season ticket. Those two tickets vary so widely I'm flabbergasted anyone can claim they're the same!

Even if you did have an Anytime ticket (which you didn't), upgrades are solely at the discretion of the train manager.

 

[All Line Rover]

Interesting responses, the majority seem to feel that this is an open and shut situation. Hmmmm

Right. I'll make this nice and simple, seeing as I purchase this upgrade about 50 times a year.

According to National Rail Enquiries, "On weekends and Bank Holidays, upgrades to First Class on Virgin Trains is free of charge if holding a Standard Class Anytime ticket by approaching the Train Manager." (See here, under "Virgin Trains")

Anytime tickets are detailed here on the NRE website.

Season tickets, which are a completely separate type of ticket, are detailed here.

The Virgin Trains "free First Class upgrade" offer excludes both Anytime Day tickets and Season tickets. They both allow travel at any time, and allow unlimited breaks of journey, but this is irrelevant - the offer does not include these tickets.

For any ticket, other than an Anytime ticket (which is a separate ticket type to Season tickets), the following applies: "Upgrades are priced at £15.00 for adults and £5 for children for a single journey, regardless of the length of journey." (See here, under "Virgin Trains")

You should have been offered to pay the £15 upgrade to remain in First Class, or go and sit in Standard Class instead. If things got to the point that the Train Manager had to issue an "Unpaid Fare Notice" (UPFN), then I can only assume that you refused to pay the £15 upgrade and refused to move to Standard Class.

Sorry, but you are completely in the wrong here. It is nice enough of Virgin to offer a free upgrade on "Anytime" tickets. They do not extend this offer to "Season" tickets, and you have no right to expect to sit in First Class for free. I suggest you pay the UPFN if you have been issued one (you have no alternative) and learn from your mistake. Better luck next time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if you did have an Anytime ticket (which you didn't), upgrades are solely at the discretion of the train manager.

This, too, is correct. The upgrade depends on there being space available, and if a First Class ticket holder requires your seat (which happens very frequently on Super Voyagers between Birmingham and Crewe, where the single First Class carriage is often full), you can be denied the opportunity to upgrade for free (if you hold an Anytime ticket), or even the opportunity to purchase a £15 upgrade if you hold a different ticket type (e.g. a Season ticket)!

 

[Greenback]

Interesting responses, the majority seem to feel that this is an open and shut situation. Hmmmm

In the absence of any reliable, documented evidence that a season ticket is the equivalent of an ANytime ticket for the purposes of allowing someone to travel for free in first class at weekends, I'm afraid it is exactly that.

 

[All Line Rover]

A further point could be made that, when upgrading a season ticket from Standard to First, the mechanism used is to treat the ticket as an anytime single and upgrade to the required first class ticket, thus is appears that season tickets are treated as Anytime tickets within the NiCC

Season tickets may be treated as Anytime tickets for the "normal" process of upgrading to First Class, but the Virgin offer does not extend to Season tickets. TPE has a similar "Weekend First" offer, which does extend to Season tickets (in that upgrades are free). Sorry, but Virgin only have a special offer - it's not a right, and it doesn't extend to Season tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the absence of any reliable, documented evidence that a season ticket is the equivalent of an ANytime ticket for the purposes of allowing someone to travel for free in first class at weekends, I'm afraid it is exactly that.

If the OP knew the reasoning being the "free First Class upgrade for Anytime ticket holders" offer, he would understand why this does not extend to Season tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to your post, you didn't approach the TM, you waited for him to ticket-check you.

This is not an obligation. Virgin never enforce such a rule, although it is polite to approach the TM first if you are planning to upgrade on a busy train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why do you have a BHM-Wrexham season ticket? You only need one from Wolverhampton which is in NWM Zone 5.

A Wolverhampton to Wrexham ticket is not valid via Crewe according to the Routeing Guide.

 

[Old Timer]

In the absence of any reliable, documented evidence that a season ticket is the equivalent of an ANytime ticket for the purposes of allowing someone to travel for free in first class at weekends, I'm afraid it is exactly that.

The Anytime ticket will have a price associated with it, which will not be the price paid for the Season Ticket.

The Anytime ticket will also have specific validity period which is different to a Season Ticket.

 

[All Line Rover]

When the TM ask for my ticket I showed my Birmingham to Wrexham General season ticket, the TM asked if I wanted to pay for an upgrade, I replied that it was my understanding from National Rail Enquires that an "Anytime" ticket subject to the speaking to the TM had no charge. The TM stated that ..." it is only applicable on long distances..." although he was aware that that was not the wording on the NRE website.

It is apparent that the TM's reasoning for why you couldn't have a free upgrade is incorrect, although the bottom line is that you can't have a free upgrade anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The above is from National Rail so based on this why should he move even if asked by the TM as its not down to TM discretion according to Nat Rail. It also makes no mention of distance and in theory this means even Birmingham to Wolverhampton is fine provided you buy the anytime day return not the off peak.

In the thread on this a few months ago (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46369&page=2) it was claimed Virgin don't allow Anytime Day tickets altho Nat Rail says just "Anytime"! Certainly this means I could have sat in first class with my ticket to Belfast via Stranraer though which is annoying to find out now as the return is and SOR. Not sure of it still is now tho after the rail sail changes.

An Anytime Day ticket (SDR/SDR) does not qualify for a free upgrade. Only an Anytime ticket (SOS/SOR specifically) qualifies for a free upgrade. Unfortunately, RailSail tickets aren't SOS/SOR tickets (they are a seperate ticket type), so have never qualified for the free upgrade, and certainly don't qualify for it now with the recent changes!

 

[Old Timer]

.....an "Anytime" ticket subject to the speaking to the TM had no charge.

Just re-reading your post again I spotted this.

Are you suggesting that you believe you were entitled to a free upgrade to First Class ??