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Funny message on laptop app

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crosscity

crosscity

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I'm just on my laptop on which I run the National Rail 'Live Departures' app. It looks as though the 1935 Birmingham New St to Lichfield (ex-Redditch) was cancelled. When you click on the detail a message appears to say the train was cancelled because of a train fault. All sensible and annoying. There is also a further message saying the monitoring point at Newcraighall failed to report on this train at 09:17.

The train disappeared off the New St radar because of the time, so I looked at Sutton Coldfield, and the same message appeared against this train. My question is, what is the reason for this? Newcraighall is in the Edinburgh area, quite a way from Birmingham.

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ralphchadkirk

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Generally that message means that either the passing time at a TIPLOC hasn't been put into TRUST by the signaller, or TRUST just hasn't updated yet.

Quite why it would be looking for TIPLOCs near Newcraighall is beyond me...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Eagle said:
Might be the LDB confusing two trains with the same headcode; it happens all the time evidently.
Click to expand...

A logical explanation - trains with the same head code can exist as long as they are in different areas (IIRC).
 
185

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Fife via Tipton circle ??!?! :roll:
 
crosscity

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The headcode explanation makes sense. Did the Newcraighall train this morning actually run? The system has clearly looked for the Scottish train, but can't find evidence of it.
 
ralphchadkirk

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Actually, this seems to be a bit of a major problem with the systems. A search for 2R78 shows this:
Code: 
2R78	Newcraighall [NEW]	0917	Newcraighall [NEW]	1203
2R78	London Victoria [VIC]	1533	Sutton (Surrey) [SUO]	1616
2R78	Salisbury [SAL]	2056	Romsey [ROM]	2203
2R78	London Charing Cross [CHX]	2310	Dover Priory [DVP]	0101

If you look at LTV at 2017, 2R78 appears there, but have a look at its schedule...
 
ValleyLines142

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ralphchadkirk said:
Actually, this seems to be a bit of a major problem with the systems. A search for 2R78 shows this:
Code: 
2R78	Newcraighall [NEW]	0917	Newcraighall [NEW]	1203
2R78	London Victoria [VIC]	1533	Sutton (Surrey) [SUO]	1616
2R78	Salisbury [SAL]	2056	Romsey [ROM]	2203
2R78	London Charing Cross [CHX]	2310	Dover Priory [DVP]	0101

If you look at LTV at 2017, 2R78 appears there, but have a look at its schedule...
Click to expand...

Where did you get this information from? :)
 
ralphchadkirk

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Eagle said:
Search for 2K07 then?
Click to expand...

Yes, but this is where the error occurs. Firstly it does not think 2R78 exists. Then it does show it as LTV, but shows it's schedule as normal until LTV then it shows it's next calling point as Newcraighall at 0917, and continues as a normal service there. This is why the system is expecting a report from Newcraighall. Clearly there has been a large mistake...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
DanTrainMan185 said:
Where did you get this information from? :)
Click to expand...

A contact.
 
Eagle

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ralphchadkirk said:
Yes, but this is where the error occurs. Firstly it does not think 2R78 exists. Then it does show it as LTV, but shows it's schedule as normal until LTV then it shows it's next calling point as Newcraighall at 0917, and continues as a normal service there. This is why the system is expecting a report from Newcraighall. Clearly there has been a large mistake...
Click to expand...

So why is the Fife Circle service shown as both 2R78 and 2K07 then?
 
ralphchadkirk

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Eagle said:
So why is the Fife Circle service shown as both 2R78 and 2K07 then?
Click to expand...

No idea - presumably that's where the error is. My contact has access to *that* system and has searched for 2R78 (which produces the error I've posted), and when you find 2R78 manually at LTV it shows the error I have described. This is why the NR app is confused.
 
Crossover

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That is quite an amazing error - not seen anything like that before.

So after calling at Lichfield TV (well, meant to) at 2016, it then goes onto Newcraighall at 0917 :P

EDIT: Look at the departures for Newcraighall this morning...shows the LM departure there too. Not sure if it is related but the actual 0917 from NEW was also cancelled (2K07 as pointed out previously)
 
Flying Snail

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sellis89 said:
That is quite an amazing error - not seen anything like that before.

So after calling at Lichfield TV (well, meant to) at 2016, it then goes onto Newcraighall at 0917 :P

EDIT: Look at the departures for Newcraighall this morning...shows the LM departure there too. Not sure if it is related but the actual 0917 from NEW was also cancelled (2K07 as pointed out previously)
Click to expand...


Just looking at www.livetrains.co.uk and amongst the results for BHM departures it lists a cancelled service to Dumbarton central for 22.17 calling at Tame Bridge P/way and stops to Rugeley TV (23.15) then Edinburgh Waverley(13.21) and stops to Dumbarton Central via Bathgate.

Another shared headcode?
 
crosscity

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FlyingSnail's 2217 BHM-Rugely cancelled service also appears as going to Dunbarton on the National Rail's website too.

Clearly there's a bit of a programming issue uncovered here with the NR system(s). My original question was completely innocent, and can I thank you all for your responses. It is clear that many of you understand and use these systems and your replies have certainly satisfied my curiosity.

It would be nice to think that as a result of my question, some kind of action could be taken to resolve the problem. I do not work in the industry, and so would not know who to contact to initiate a process to identify and change the relevant system. If someone within the railway cares enough to follow this up, then they would be doing the railway a favour, as providing rubbish information just reinforces prejudices of some passengers view of the railway.

Amusingly the two examples today both related to cancelled trains going to Trent Valley stations. Spooky or what.
 
ValleyLines142

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Flying Snail said:
Just looking at www.livetrains.co.uk and amongst the results for BHM departures it lists a cancelled service to Dumbarton central for 22.17 calling at Tame Bridge P/way and stops to Rugeley TV (23.15) then Edinburgh Waverley(13.21) and stops to Dumbarton Central via Bathgate.

Another shared headcode?
Click to expand...

No, the 2217 Birmingham-Rugeley is 2K35 and the 1321 from Edinburgh is 2K25. Very similar however, I'm sure they do clash with a later Edinburgh service.
 
Hydro

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DanTrainMan185 said:
Cool. Thanks :)
I can't access it now but I wonder whether you can type in a headcode and it comes up with a list of the services that headcode is.
Click to expand...

You can do this on TRUST. An enquiry for headcode (Train Reporting Number) will return all trains scheduled to run with that Reporting Number, and you can select the one you want. Ralph's information shows this. This shows that LDB is using TRUST for it's running information but cannot differentiate between different trains running with the same reporting number in different regions at around the same times.
 
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