Class 175 future

[northwichcat]

Like class 185 operated journeys many 175 operated journeys seem to be falling in to the same trap of the units being too small in single formation and not enough to run them all doubled up and even if they were doubled up they don't have corridor connectors which creates problems for the refreshments trolley.

What solutions are there?

One, which wouldn't be 100% popular in Wales, would be to switch the 175s for refurbished 158s. Following additional Scotrail electrification the number of carriages could be increased this way.

Another would be a new order. With Pacers in need of replacement a new DMU order shouldn't be out of the question.

However, in either case there's the question of what are non-corridor linked 2 and 3 car units with only standard class accommodation best suited to? The answer would seem to be commuter trains even though the interior is much nicer than the average commuter train.

With 175s being a bit temperamental I think either:
1. Stay based at the purpose built Chester depot and get used on Northern's North West local services.
2. Get transferred to FGW to be maintained alongside the 180s and be used on routes currently Sprinter operated.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Like class 185 operated journeys many 175 operated journeys seem to be falling in to the same trap of the units being too small in single formation and not enough to run them all doubled up and even if they were doubled up they don't have corridor connectors which creates problems for the refreshments trolley.

What solutions are there?

One, which wouldn't be 100% popular in Wales, would be to switch the 175s for refurbished 158s. Following additional Scotrail electrification the number of carriages could be increased this way.

Another would be a new order. With Pacers in need of replacement a new DMU order shouldn't be out of the question.

However, in either case there's the question of what are non-corridor linked 2 and 3 car units with only standard class accommodation best suited to? The answer would seem to be commuter trains even though the interior is much nicer than the average commuter train.

With 175s being a bit temperamental I think either:
1. Stay based at the purpose built Chester depot and get used on Northern's North West local services.
2. Get transferred to FGW to be maintained alongside the 180s and be used on routes currently Sprinter operated.

Its not a bad shout where you're coming from, but personally, I wouldn't agree. But of course everyone is entitled to their opinion

If we got rid of our 175s, the whole Arriva fleet would be Sprinter/Pacer worked (except for 158s). Although unreliable sometimes, they're not bad trains at all.

One forum user suggested the relatively good idea of ordering a few more carriages so that they're formed of 4 or 5 carriages, a bit like 180s. That's not a bad shout actually, because one of the carriages could even been first class. Which would be nice, especially for the Milford Haven/Carmarthen/Swansea/Cardiff to Manchester corridor and Cardiff to Holyhead, some of those journeys are up to five to six hours without first class. Whereas certain trains that have a journey time of about 30 minutes have full first class service, the lot.

And also you mention that there is the issue of overcrowding. Sixteen of the 175 fleet are formed of three coaches. Would you lose all these for 2-car 158s?

If anything, it's the Valley Lines that need sorting out!

 

[northwichcat]

IAnd also you mention that there is the issue of overcrowding. Sixteen of the 175 fleet are formed of three coaches. Would you lose all these for 2-car 158s?

Not at all - remember 3 car 158s exist! I'm thinking more like in return for losing the 175s they'd get something like 108 corridor linked carriages to replace 70 non corridor linked carriages. Equivalent to making all the 175s have 4 carriages.

One forum user suggested the relatively good idea of ordering a few more carriages so that they're formed of 4 or 5 carriages, a bit like 180s.

Apart from the production line shut down 10 years ago so you have no chance of getting suitable additional carriages without a ridiculous level of funding being provided to get them.

If anything, it's the Valley Lines that need sorting out!

So you are aware of the overcrowding problems on the Manchester-Llandudno services then? Many people in South Wales including the WAG don't seem to be.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Not at all - remember 3 car 158s exist! I'm thinking more like in return for losing the 175s they'd get something like 108 corridor linked carriages to replace 70 non corridor linked carriages. Equivalent to making all the 175s have 4 carriages.

Arriva don't have any 3-car 158s, they're all with First Great Western. The only thing they could do is join them up like FGW have done with theirs. But the 175s are quite decent trains too. There wouldn't be enough stock available for Milford Haven/Carmarthen services.
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Apart from the production line shut down 10 years ago so you have no chance of getting suitable additional carriages without a ridiculous level of funding being provided to get them.

Damn. I'm not sure what we would do. Unless we had new stock.

 

[jones_bangor]

With 175s being a bit temperamental I think either:
1. Stay based at the purpose built Chester depot and get used on Northern's North West local services.
2. Get transferred to FGW to be maintained alongside the 180s and be used on routes currently Sprinter operated.

Better idea would be transfer the even more temperamental 180s to Chester for some TLC and use them on North Wales - Manchester / Birmingham (via WCML) and a revised Swansea - Manchester service.

 

[ValleyLines142]

So you are aware of the overcrowding problems on the Manchester-Llandudno services then? Many people in South Wales including the WAG don't seem to be.

I'm very much aware of the over-crowding that appears on those services. But I must say, it's just as bad down here. At least with up north, connections can be made at Crewe and Chester for other services, down here there isn't that much other option.

 

[Schnellzug]

The only sensible thing (since, if they were transferred to somewhere else, just replacing 158s one-for-one might give an improvement in comfort, but wouldn't provide any extra capacity, and they'd be misemployed on commuter services since they're inter-city spec) would be to construct some extra carriages to make them all 4 or 5-car, but they're an obsolete design now and I expect Alstom would rather not be reminded about them, and I daresay that there'd be all sorts of difficulties and complications trying to make them work with new carriages with new software and so on. I think really, using the 2-car ones in permanent pairs would be the only realistic solution. Of course, this is yet another legacy of the peculiar fixation (or, of course, just to save money) with the shortest trains possible that the Government had. if we must have the shortest trains possible, including gangways so that they can be doubled up with as little inconvenience as possible would surely only have been sensible. :roll:

 

[ValleyLines142]

Better idea would be transfer the even more temperamental 180s to Chester for some TLC and use them on North Wales - Manchester / Birmingham (via WCML) and a revised Swansea - Manchester service.

Now that sounds like a good idea. And keep the 175s for Cardiff services.

 

[northwichcat]

Arriva don't have any 3-car 158s, they're all with First Great Western. The only thing they could do is join them up like FGW have done with theirs. But the 175s are quite decent trains too. There wouldn't be enough stock available for Milford Haven/Carmarthen services.

No you don't understand. Arriva would give their 175s to another operator and they would get a greater number total number of carriages in the form of 158s or new carriages in exchange. The greater number of 158s would be available because spare 158s would be available following additional electrification in Scotland. Northern Rail have 3 car 158s, which have a purpose built centre car, so if the 3 car 175s go to Northern Rail I could see the 3 car 158s going the other way.

Better idea would be transfer the even more temperamental 180s to Chester for some TLC and use them on North Wales - Manchester / Birmingham (via WCML) and a revised Swansea - Manchester service.

Didn't ATW look at taking on the 180s when FGW gave them up and decided against it?

 

[jones_bangor]

Didn't ATW look at taking on the 180s when FGW gave them up and decided against it?

I'm not sure, there may be issues of cost e.g. track access fees. However, they would solve overcrowding on the Manchester services.

Not actually sure they're cleared into Birmingham?

 

[ValleyLines142]

No you don't understand. Arriva would give their 175s to another operator and they would get a greater number total number of carriages in the form of 158s or new carriages in exchange. The greater number of 158s would be available because spare 158s would be available following additional electrification in Scotland. Northern Rail have 3 car 158s, which have a purpose built centre car, so if the 3 car 175s go to Northern Rail I could see the 3 car 158s going the other way.

Ah I get you. Still, I don't think 175s need to go to Northern, they've got enough on the go with every Sprinter/Pacer from under the sun.

Arriva have only got seven types of unit employed, Northern have twelve, a mixture of DMU and EMU. I know you can't compare it on those facts alone, but I think the 175s should stay. If anything, I suggest using 158s on the Manchester to Llandudno routes, as you say they're overcrowded and they have corridor connections, so that'd work, and then use the 175s for the longer services, which I feel are more appropriate.

 

[All Line Rover]

One, which wouldn't be 100% popular in Wales, would be to switch the 175s for refurbished 158s. Following additional Scotrail electrification the number of carriages could be increased this way.

Erm, no thanks!

Another would be a new order. With Pacers in need of replacement a new DMU order shouldn't be out of the question.

However, in either case there's the question of what are non-corridor linked 2 and 3 car units with only standard class accommodation best suited to? The answer would seem to be commuter trains even though the interior is much nicer than the average commuter train.

In an ideal world, order a new set of DMU's (4-car minimum) for the Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly / Holyhead, Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham International to Holyhead routes, and transfer all 175's to all other routes (except the Cardiff Valley Lines). 3-car 175's would go on the busiest routes - e.g. Heart of Wales Line (3-car), Birmingham International to Shrewsbury (3-car), Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth (2-car, on what could be a new separate route, even though there may be problems with 175's on this route), Borderlands Line (2-car), etc., etc... I'm sure customer satisfaction would shoot through the roof!

I'm sure the routes would be re-designed if a new fleet of trains was introduced, which makes it rather difficult to decide what other "routes" the 175's could travel on.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Erm, no thanks!

Another would be a new order. With Pacers in need of replacement a new DMU order shouldn't be out of the question.

However, in either case there's the question of what are non-corridor linked 2 and 3 car units with only standard class accommodation best suited to? The answer would seem to be commuter trains even though the interior is much nicer than the average commuter train.

In an ideal world, order a new set of DMU's (4-car minimum) for the Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly / Holyhead, Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham International to Holyhead routes, and transfer all 175's to all other routes (except the Cardiff Valley Lines). 3-car 175's would go on the busiest routes - e.g. Heart of Wales Line (3-car), Birmingham International to Shrewsbury (3-car), Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth (2-car, on what could be a new separate route, even though there may be problems with 175's on this route), Borderlands Line (2-car), etc., etc... I'm sure customer satisfaction would shoot through the roof!

I'm sure the routes would be re-designed if a new fleet of trains was introduced.[/QUOTE]

And what about the Valley Lines??

I don't think the Borderlands Line needs 175s, I think they're fine with 150s as it's only a short route. Of course, it'd be lovely! Wouldn't we all love a nice posh train! The Borderlands Line may be in the hands of Mersyerail soon anyway, as apparently it's going to be electrified.

I think all the 175's should be used on Cardiff-Manchester services, and then Llandudno-Manchester could have 158s?

 

[headshot119]

Erm, no thanks!



In an ideal world, order a new set of DMU's (5-car minimum) for the Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly / Holyhead, Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham International to Holyhead routes, and transfer all 175's to all other routes (except the Cardiff Valley Lines). 3-car 175's would go on the busiest routes - e.g. Heart of Wales Line (3-car), Birmingham International to Shrewsbury (3-car), Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth (2-car, on what could be a new separate route, even though there may be problems with 175's on this route), Borderlands Line (2-car), etc., etc... I'm sure customer satisfaction would shoot through the roof!

I'm sure the routes would be re-designed if a new fleet of trains was introduced, which makes it rather difficult to decide what other "routes" the 175's could travel on.

Corrected you there mate.

You'll also have a slight issue on the Borderlands line when the 175 gets to Cefn-y-Bedd. It'll be needing a new paint job.

As for the Borderlands becoming part of Merseyrail "soon", they've been telling us that since before I was born.

 

[jones_bangor]

I don't think the Borderlands Line needs 175s, I think they're fine with 150s as it's only a short route. Of course, it'd be lovely! Wouldn't we all love a nice posh train! The Borderlands Line may be in the hands of Mersyerail soon anyway, as apparently it's going to be electrified.

Borderlands electrified? I thought that one burnt itself out a couple of years ago....

 

[ValleyLines142]

Of course, looking at the situation realistically, we can't always 'hope' that we'll simply get new units. So, what if we merged the 2-car 175s to make 3-car 175s, you would then have an additional seven trains (175117-175123).

 

[headshot119]

One thing that struck me with Borderlands electrification plan, where do you get the stock to run it from?

The current service needs 2 X 150s to run, so where do the 2 X 507/8s come from?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Borderlands electrified? I thought that one burnt itself out a couple of years ago....

Maybe it has, it's the first I've heard of it. But it's only an hour journey so I think 150s are suitable for that.
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One thing that struck me with Borderlands electrification plan, where do you get the stock to run it from?

The current service needs 2 X 150s to run, so where do the 2 X 507/8s come from?

I don't know whether this would eventually come into plan, electrification of the Borderlands Line is just something that has come into fruition over the years. I don't know whether 507s or 508s could work it, I don't know also whether it would be that simple just to provide them with 507s and 508s from Merseyrail.

 

[headshot119]

Of course, looking at the situation realistically, we can't always 'hope' that we'll simply get new units. So, what if we merged the 2-car 175s to make 3-car 175s, you would then have an additional seven trains (175117-175123).

Merge them in what way? So you end up with a DMSL - DMSL - DMSL. So one vehicle is completely cut of from the rest of the train.

There are 11 two car 175s so 22 vehicles. So that's going to give you seven three car "hybrid" set's and one spare vehicle. What's the point?

 

[All Line Rover]

I think all the 175's should be used on Cardiff-Manchester services, and then Llandudno-Manchester could have 158s?

That would be reasonable, as journey times on that route aren't too long. It's ridiculous how Arriva run a Manchester to CARMARTHEN (!) service using a 158!

However, why should the Welsh be lumped with shoddy old stock from Scotland? Why can't we have some NICE trains? What about the North-South divide!? Those Southerners get all the nice new trains!

 

[headshot119]

That would be reasonable, as journey times on that route aren't too long. It's ridiculous how Arriva run a Manchester to CARMARTHEN (!) service using a 158!

However, why should the Welsh be lumped with shoddy old stock from Scotland? Why can't we have some NICE trains? What about the North-South divide!? Those Southerners get all the nice new trains!

No more ridiculous than it being run with a 2 car 175 really?

 

[All Line Rover]

And what about the Valley Lines??

Well the WAG seems to have completely different plans for the Valley Lines - namely electrification - so I don't see the point of cascading DMU's to those routes.
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No more ridiculous than it being run with a 2 car 175 really?

The 158's are loud, noisy, rattly cold and uncomfortable. Not ideal for a 5-hour journey. The 175's are comfortable, smooth, quiet, well air-conditioned and all in all a pleasure to travel in.

 

[headshot119]

Have you not sample the new 158 refurbs?

 

[All Line Rover]

Corrected you there mate.

I think 5-cars would be excessive, as the current 3-car trains are rarely overflowing. It's the 2-car trains that cause problems, and if a new set of 4-car DMU's were introduced I'm sure everything would be fine. Having said that, it might still be a good idea to introduce 5-car DMU's to cater for future passenger increases (which are bound to happen).

 

[ValleyLines142]

Merge them in what way? So you end up with a DMSL - DMSL - DMSL. So one vehicle is completely cut of from the rest of the train.

There are 11 two car 175s so 22 vehicles. So that's going to give you seven three car "hybrid" set's and one spare vehicle. What's the point?

I don't know, I'm not a train technician. But if they could be increased somehow (similar to what FGW have done to their 158s) it might work.
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Have you not sample the new 158 refurbs?

I have, and they are nice, but not that good.

 

[All Line Rover]

Have you not sample the new 158 refurbs?

Yes, and although they're better and the seats comfortable, no matter what Arriva do, a 158 is still a 158. And have you tried the hand dryers?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Well the WAG seems to have completely different plans for the Valley Lines - namely electrification - so I don't see the point of cascading DMU's to those routes.

If the Valley Lines were electrified that would be a gift in heaven!! I'd love it!
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That would be reasonable, as journey times on that route aren't too long. It's ridiculous how Arriva run a Manchester to CARMARTHEN (!) service using a 158!

However, why should the Welsh be lumped with shoddy old stock from Scotland? Why can't we have some NICE trains? What about the North-South divide!? Those Southerners get all the nice new trains!

To be fair, Manchester to Carmarthen services aren't very often a 158.

 

[sprinterguy]

Better idea would be transfer the even more temperamental 180s to Chester for some TLC and use them on North Wales - Manchester / Birmingham (via WCML) and a revised Swansea - Manchester service.

This would be my favoured course of action, rather than transferring the 175s to any other duties. The 175s work quite happily within the ATW franchise in my opinion, it's just problematic that there aren't enough of them to double up the 2-carriage units to make four carriage formations.

It would take only a handful of 180s to allow five pairs of 2-car 175s to be formed up, so that 5-car 180s can take over long distance services currently worked by 3-car 175s and 3-car 175s can take over duties currently worked by 2-car 175s. And I see no reason why open access operators should get first dibs on rolling stock: If Grand Centrals' and Hull Trains' fleet requirement was covered by whatever comes out of the IEP specification for the East Coast, assuming that bi-mode is still being pursued, then that would release a fair few 180s out of the total fleet.

Of course, ATW gaining additional 158s as a result of them being cascaded from Scotland by EGIP would be a definite boon.

 

[150222]

Arriva don't have any 3-car 158s, they're all with First Great Western. The only thing they could do is join them up like FGW have done with theirs. But the 175s are quite decent trains too. There wouldn't be enough stock available for Milford Haven/Carmarthen services.

Actually northern have some purpose built 3-car 158's and SWT have the 159's (all ex-158's). Now the point about 175's going to northern. This would be a good idea in theory as northerns 3-car 158's never operate in multiple. It would only work however if all 175's came to northern and displaced currently 158 operated routes in West Yorkshire. This would mean building a new depot. They also couldn't swap them for an equal number as 158's are far more reliable. I wouldn't mind this happening however ATW would need to gain additional capacity and there is not enough 158's at present. The only solution would be for LM to order more 172s realeasing 170s to Scotrail in-turn releasing 158's for ATW.

 

[sprinterguy]

Arriva don't have any 3-car 158s, they're all with First Great Western.

To correct you, FGW only have one of the seventeen 3-car 158s that were built as such. They also have twelve hybrid 3-car units. Of the other sixteen purpose built 3-car 158s, Northern received eight of the centre cars to form up 3-car units, and the remaining eight became 159/1s with South West Trains.

EDIT: Darn, just beaten to it!