Double Voyager?

[156499]

Hi, Does anyone know what 1V52 0601 Glasgow Central - Plymouth is booked on a Friday? i'm aware it is a 220 any other day of the week

Thanks

 

[TEW]

220 still I believe. It was a double set Mondays and Fridays only this summer, but I believe it is no longer a double set.

 

[Minilad]

Was 030 and 034 throughout today

 

[TEW]

Could well be a double set again in connection with 1V64 being an HST. Means one less voyager at Laira, but no less required in the morning. One extra set therefore comes off 1V52, 0601 GLC-PLY, with the return working, 1E67, 1625 PLY-LDS, being just a single voyager. Think 1V52 can be a double because 1S49, 1125 PLY-DEE on Thursdays runs as a double set right through to Dundee instead of one set coming off at Newcastle to return to Birmingham.

 

[HSTEd]

Out of interest, are many Voyager workings doubled up or is it simply a handful during the peaks?

 

[MCR247]

But the thing with the cross country route is this: what peaks? The peak through Brum is on a train which will leave Plymouth off peak and arrive in Edinburgh off peak, so it is very hard for XC to diagram for 'the peaks' because every XC train will be travelling through the peaks somewhere during its journey

 

[TEW]

There simply aren't enough voyagers to couple many up anyway. A couple of services booked for double voyagers are late evening arrivals at Birmingham used as moves to get units back to Central Rivers. Otherwise there is one diagram on the Bournemouth-Manchester route as a double voyager all day and a couple of NE-SW diagrams are doubled up at points in the day.

 

[Hydro]

But the thing with the cross country route is this: what peaks? The peak through Brum is on a train which will leave Plymouth off peak and arrive in Edinburgh off peak, so it is very hard for XC to diagram for 'the peaks' because every XC train will be travelling through the peaks somewhere during its journey

Most XC services I've travelled on, all day is the peak. XC cannot be thought of in the same way as anything else, the distances covered mean that large numbers travel all day. There is no peak. It's busy all the time. There may a few early/late services that don't fit into this, but for most of the day, XC is busy due to the Intercity nature of the services.

 

[HSTEd]

I know there have been many threads discussing chronic and massive overcrowding on XC trains, but is the overcrowding problem massive and consistent and is there evidence of significant supressed demand as a result of the overcrowding?

 

[Nym]

There used to be significant suppressed demand thanks to shortage of services, op. princess proved that. And thanks to the lack of AP fares on most XC services I'd say there is plenty of suppression of demand there. Problem comes when you look at the size of the routes though, and the difference in demand throughout them, now this is something that TPE suffers from as well, but lets not go there.

The thing is that XC are being used both for local and national services, and I don't care how many times people say "Oh but just because it runs PLY - EDB doesn't mean people use it for that distance" Yeah, just because you can go from KX to INV doesn't mean people use it, but they do!

Speaking from public opinion, a lot of pax I have spoken to (and potential pax) are put off using XC because of overcrowding or "Sitting on that small train for 6 hours" and what is now a massive loss of old through services (Thanks Arriva and VXC).

Personally, previous services such as those to Gatwick Airport and Brighton or other cut off destinations where very attractive to me, mainly thanks to not having to cross London, people don't mind being on a service a little bit longer if it links to an airport.

And since XC are more about cutting non-core services than adding new ones that is also suppressing demand, Birmingham - Stansted Airport for example, why terminate at Birmingham and not run this service to Manchester via Manchester Airport? There is a hell of a lot of demand waiting in the wings for Manchester - Stansted, especially with longer distance budget flights coming into there, cutting Gatwick via Olympia was just moronic, the Gays Express (Manchester - Brighton via Gatwick Airport) was rather popular with those sick of Canal Street, and ran at a convenient time too.

So yeah, I recon there is a lot of suppressed demand, both in the core, and for direct journies that have been lost.

 

[M60lad]

The 21:32 I think it is Piccadilly-Birmingham New Street is always a double Voyager during the week (Mon-Fri) with the rear set locked out of use, one set comes into Piccadilly about 20:30 into Platform 8 I think it is then disappears out of the station then reappears after about 21:00 after I think its an Exeter service comes into Platform 4 then they both couple up ready to form 21:32 Piccadilly-Birmingham New Street service.

I think I've got the above right, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

 

[ainsworth74]

Most XC services I've travelled on, all day is the peak.

What XC could do is to join and split more on route at say Newcastle and Bristol. So a service from Edinburgh to Plymouth would run as a single Voyager to Newcastle couple up with another run though to Bristol doubled up split again with the front continuing to Plymouth and the rear then coupling with another unit to head back to Newcastle.

The problem of course with this is that it would increase the complexity of diagramming, operation and need more Voyagers. But I've always thought that would be one way of getting more capacity through the core whilst not oversupplying the extremities of XCs network.

 

[HSTEd]

What were the additional Operation Princess routes?

Was this the 1tpd to Kensington Olympia that I can seem to recall from years ago

 

[headshot119]

What were the additional Operation Princess routes?

Was this the 1tpd to Kensington Olympia that I can seem to recall from years ago

The original operation princess services where group as follows.

VT0 		Birmingham to Swindon via Stroud 	Withdrawn summer 2003[8]
VT1 		Glasgow, Edinburgh & Blackpool through Birmingham to South West of England 	Blackpool withdrawn summer 2003
VT2 		Aberdeen, Edinburgh & Newcastle through Manchester and Birmingham to Poole 	Services south of Bournemouth withdrawn summer 2003
VT3 		Liverpool and Manchester through Birmingham to London, Portsmouth and Brighton 	Portsmouth and London withdrawn summer 2003, reduced frequency to Brighton, all Liverpool withdrawn winter 2003.
VT4 		Aberdeen and Edinburgh through Birmingham to Cardiff, Paignton and Penzance 	Services continued west of Cardiff until summer 2003

 

[HSTEd]

Would this put Cross Country operating trains on the WCML north of Manchester (to Blackpool and Scotland?) or would the trains from SCotland to Manchester have come via Leeds and the north transpennine?

 

[MCR247]

Edinburgh - Preston - Manchester - Birmingham etc

 

[HSTEd]

Hourly to/from each destination as the standard service or something?

Would it be possible to get hold of the Virgin Cross Country franchise timetables from the period of Operation Princess, it is rather interesting.

 

[1018509]

There simply aren't enough voyagers to couple many up anyway. A couple of services booked for double voyagers are late evening arrivals at Birmingham used as moves to get units back to Central Rivers. Otherwise there is one diagram on the Bournemouth-Manchester route as a double voyager all day and a couple of NE-SW diagrams are doubled up at points in the day.

Does a double voyager have to have two guards/conductors?

 

[headshot119]

Does a double voyager have to have two guards/conductors?

No, Virgin ones run without two TMs.

 

[Eagle]

Hourly to/from each destination as the standard service or something?

Nowhere near. Pre-Princess the services were infrequent and sporadic, with inconsistently-connected destinations. Princess was a way of forcing a more clockface timetable onto the network (as well as more or less doubling the frequencies), but to do that a lot of the more esoteric routes had to go.

The clockface timetable VXC eventually settled on recurred every two hours IIRC. In December 2008 under Arriva it was rejigged to a fixed hourly pattern (and Brighton was cut back to Guildford to save units for strengthening).

 

[TEW]

Does a double voyager have to have two guards/conductors?

No, but it must have two members of staff on board other than the driver. One can be a member of catering crew though, must be one in either unit at all times. I believe all booked double voyager services do have two TMs though.

 

[All Line Rover]

No, Virgin ones run without two TMs.

I've never travelled on a double Super Voyager that has only one TM - they all have two. It does seem a waste of money, though. (Can the TM in one Super Voyager open/close the doors on the other?)

 

[IanXC]

Can the TM in one Super Voyager open/close the doors on the other?

Nope. Only the driver can open/close the doors at all!!

 

[All Line Rover]

Nope. Only the driver can open/close the doors at all!!

WHAAT?? I thought that was the TM's job! What does the TM actually do then?

 

[Minilad]

Nope. Only the driver can open/close the doors at all!!

Well strictly speaking he only closes them on the say so of the guard

 

[Nym]

Unless you see people you don't like the look of running up the stairs at Tamworth HL and close them anyway eh?

Not that you'd do that, ever, honest...

 

[cyclebytrain]

I've never travelled on a double Super Voyager that has only one TM - they all have two. It does seem a waste of money, though. (Can the TM in one Super Voyager open/close the doors on the other?)

I have -could even name the TM (but won't in case he did something wrong -he's a damn good guy!)

 

[87015]

Nowhere near. Pre-Princess the services were infrequent and sporadic, with inconsistently-connected destinations. Princess was a way of forcing a more clockface timetable onto the network (as well as more or less doubling the frequencies), but to do that a lot of the more esoteric routes had to go.

By infrequent and sporadic do you mean a 90% clockface service across the core axis Manchester/Reading/Sheffield/Bristol-Birmingham but with mixed origin/departure points, ie a true crosscountry service?

 

[ainsworth74]

WHAAT?? I thought that was the TM's job! What does the TM actually do then?

Dispatch duties, signals the driver to close doors and revenue duties. That beep (pause) beep beep with the same in response is the TM signalling the driver to close doors and the driver then responding.

 

[All Line Rover]

Dispatch duties, signals the driver to close doors and revenue duties. That beep (pause) beep beep with the same in response is the TM signalling the driver to close doors and the driver then responding.

Well I can see why certain TOC's are in favour of DOO then! I certainly don't support it, but if that's all a guard does, I can see why it is attractive from a TOC's perspective. (Whilst I'm not too bothered about DOO on commuter trains, I strongly feel that "InterCity" trains (e.g. Virgin) should never be made DOO due to the fact that passengers like someone to be "in control!")