Future of the Class 455 at Southern

[Southern]

With the order placed for what appears to be 26 5-carriage Electrostar units, the 455's are presumably going to be freed up for possible transfer onto non-Metro routes. Two destinations that spring to mind, one having already been mentioned, are Horsham and Tonbridge. Both have a common route through Redhill so could run as a combined train to/from London. It would free up a path out of London Bridge (two if they did away with the Reigate service), which could help when London Bridge is being remodelled.

I've always thought the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services could stand to run combined outside of the peaks to free up a few paths to. This is something that seems to have appeared (in the last year or so) at weekends now so wonder if more combined services are something Southern are considering post 2013.

 

[thameslink2000]

With the order placed for what appears to be 26 5-carriage Electrostar units, the 455's are presumably going to be freed up for possible transfer onto non-Metro routes. Two destinations that spring to mind, one having already been mentioned, are Horsham and Tonbridge. Both have a common route through Redhill so could run as a combined train to/from London. It would free up a path out of London Bridge (two if they did away with the Reigate service), which could help when London Bridge is being remodelled.

I've always thought the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services could stand to run combined outside of the peaks to free up a few paths to. This is something that seems to have appeared (in the last year or so) at weekends now so wonder if more combined services are something Southern are considering post 2013.

No thanks, Hopefully the 455s will not be appearing on the Horsham to London via Crawley line any time in the near future!

 

[Ministry]

455s to Tonbridge would be horrible - 377/3s would make more sense. They already run to Horsham, but using the Sutton and Mole Valley Line rather than the Brighton Mainline.

My guess is the new stock will allow the 455s to be sent to the Coastway routes and free up some of the 377s to run on the Express services, thus enabling Southern to get rid of the 313s and the 442s. If that happens I suppose both fleets will be sent to scrap - the 313s will likely be life expired and the 442s will be of no further use elsewhere on the network.

 

[Chris125]

Arent the 442's a more likely casualty of this order? A small, unique fleet with reliability issues and which this order could eliminate entirely - if not directly, by cascading other 377's.

Chris

 

[Dave A]

I thought the 442's were only in place to be a cost effective lease in order to run GatEx? They'll simply disappear when GatEx as a separate operation does...

If you look carefully, this is being done in order to stop the Metro services (only) being placed up for tender (ie becoming part of TfL) before their franchise agreement runs out (2015), instead of 2013 I believe. Therefore, at a guess, these trains are being ordered to replace 455/6's.

I would of thought they'd be scrapped as no where really has a use for them, except SWT I suppose?

 

[Fincra5]

Who knows yet really... Could depend on if SWT get the 456's, etc, etc

 

[ushawk]

The only suitable routes to me are the ones with 313 operation, but i cant see Southern wanting to replace them so soon after getting them. Maybe if the Marshlink Line was electrified, with the Brighton to Ashford service split again, then a couple of 455s could run shuttles between Hastings/Rye and Ashford.

I think though that they will just run them all as 8-car trains so all metro services are a minimum of 8 cars long, no idea what the 377/3s will run though, maybe stick those on the Horsham/Reigate/Tonbridge runs.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I thought the order for the 377/6 fleet this week is to increase capacity rather than displace anything?

 

[TheJRB]

Maybe if the Marshlink Line was electrified, with the Brighton to Ashford service split again, then a couple of 455s could run shuttles between Hastings/Rye and Ashford.

Nice idea. Maybe have it couple up/divide at Ore with the Brighton service and that way still maintain a through service. Although that would of course require the Ore service to be formed of a 455 and electrification still, but other than that...

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the order for the 377/6 fleet this week is to increase capacity rather than displace anything?

That's what SN reckon:

The £188.8 million order will augment Southern’s existing fleet of Electrostars and allow Southern to lengthen trains on some of its busiest Metro routes into Victoria, including routes via Gipsy Hill, Norbury and Hackbridge at the end of 2013

...but then they probably haven't thought of some of the weird ideas here... :roll:

 

[ushawk]

Was thinking of saying the Brighton to Ore service could be a 455, but seeing as they either come from London/become a London service that probably couldnt happen, unless Southern want to annoy pax with a 2 hour long service with no toilets, not ruling it out though

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course anything they do in terms of internal cascades will only be temporary, because of all those 'SN' routes that will become Thameslink services, using the 12 car and 8 car Desiro Citys...

I'd suggest it will all become clear around 2018, when there'll be so many 313s, 455s and 442s spare there'll be nowhere to stable them...

 

[jopsuk]

the 313s will be over 40 by 2018. The 455s 33-35. The 442s will be relative youngsters at a mere 30, but with traction control equipment that's much much older

 

[Class377/5]

Of course anything they do in terms of internal cascades will only be temporary, because of all those 'SN' routes that will become Thameslink services, using the 12 car and 8 car Desiro Citys...

I'd suggest it will all become clear around 2018, when there'll be so many 313s, 455s and 442s spare there'll be nowhere to stable them...

Why won't there be move to stable the 313 etc post 2018? The new Thameslink units will be berthing mainly at Three Bridges on the Southern route at the new build depot and all the berthing FCC uses will be free so unless a depot closes there is not reduction in available stabling places in the next ten years.

As we speak work has begin to increase Selhurst capacity with additional stabling by bringing in the disused siding back into use

No thanks, Hopefully the 455s will not be appearing on the Horsham to London via Crawley line any time in the near future!

Doubtful they would be least you know your lines due for new trains in 2016.
.

 

[Minstral25]

With the order placed for what appears to be 26 5-carriage Electrostar units, the 455's are presumably going to be freed up for possible transfer onto non-Metro routes. Two destinations that spring to mind, one having already been mentioned, are Horsham and Tonbridge. Both have a common route through Redhill so could run as a combined train to/from London. It would free up a path out of London Bridge (two if they did away with the Reigate service), which could help when London Bridge is being remodelled.

I've always thought the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services could stand to run combined outside of the peaks to free up a few paths to. This is something that seems to have appeared (in the last year or so) at weekends now so wonder if more combined services are something Southern are considering post 2013.

The Horsham routes are being converted to Thameslink route in 2018 so I think unlikely to be changed to 455's and I believe the 12 coach trains will start appearing from 2016 if they ever get ordered. The Caterham/Tattenham corner services as well but not as combined services. So I think in 2018 the 455's will certainly be spare and to start a new rumour available for transfer to SWT along with the 456's.

Also the Desiro Citys will start arriving in 2016 so maybe the replacements will be earlier on routes into London Bridge or Victoria.

There is going to be a major Timetable revamp in 2018 when Thameslink gets going. I suspect a lot of places will loose their direct Victoria Connection - maybe Tattenham/Caterham and intermediate stations on the Horsham lines as they will be fully served by just Thameslink trains (and with the connections at Farringdon the route to Central London and the West End will change for most people)

On the Tonbridge and Reigate branches from observations at Redhill (my main station) there is very little through traffic from Tonbridge but comparatively a lot from Reigate especially at peaks when Reigate portions arrive in the morning at Redhill with very few seats. However the Tonbridge trains tend to empty and then fill up at Redhill suggesting a good local traffic from Redhill along the branch.

Off Peak the 4 trains an hour to London Bridge used to run relatively empty when introduced but they have been very successful and now even off peak there can be standing at certain times especially inwards of Coulsdon South.

I can't see the 4 trains an hour service from Redhill being dropped in the rebuild and as it is only 2 trains an hour in the peak that is unlikely to be lost during the rebuild - more likely an imaginative solution may be found like splitting trains at East Croydon

 

[BestWestern]

I thought the order for the 377/6 fleet this week is to increase capacity rather than displace anything?

That's what I thought also!

But regardless, I'd be very surprised to see anything at all being scrapped, be it 313s, 455s or 442s, even if some of these were to become surplus. Bear in mind that we are currently shifting the rotting remains of SE's 508s for further store at Eastleigh! I could see SWT hatching plans if further 455s came onto the market, even if it only involved vehicles rather than units. I'd hate to see 442s being scrapped, and I don't think that would happen. They remain very nice trains, true express units in an age where most journeys over the third rail are on very mediocre stock (444 anyone?! ). Even if there was no further use for them on the Southern, I could see them potentially going loco hauled, formed into longer rakes and perhaps even wired for push-pull working?! They're simple electrics so I'd have thought anything is possible!?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why won't there be move to stable the 313 etc post 2018? The new Thameslink units will be berthing mainly at Three Bridges on the Southern route at the new build depot and all the berthing FCC uses will be free so unless a depot closes there is not reduction in available stabling places in the next ten years.

I was only writing figuratively, but now that you've raised the specific point I can't see the southern part of the T/L network's berthing for the new trains being 'mainly at Three Bridges'.

The planning drawings for the site don't show anything like the capacity needed to berth a significant part of the fleet, only 16 units can be stabled, and 5 others can be undergoing maintenance - so I reckon it will be stabled all over the place just like current practice - on the other hand Three Bridges' allocation of the trains might be a large proportion of the fleet, maybe 50% or more, but that doesn't imply they all stable there.

There were similar thoughts when it was announced a few years ago that Siemens were to build a new depot for the SWT Dessies at Northam, Southampton. Only a handful of units are ever present at Northam, well over 90% are outberthed each night. However all the trains are allocated to Northam - I forsee a similar set up with Three Bridges and Hornsey.

 

[Southern]

455s to Tonbridge would be horrible - 377/3s would make more sense. They already run to Horsham, but using the Sutton and Mole Valley Line rather than the Brighton Mainline.

My guess is the new stock will allow the 455s to be sent to the Coastway routes and free up some of the 377s to run on the Express services, thus enabling Southern to get rid of the 313s and the 442s. If that happens I suppose both fleets will be sent to scrap - the 313s will likely be life expired and the 442s will be of no further use elsewhere on the network.

Yes, am aware they work the Mole Valley to Horsham, having made many a journey on them. I also remember them on London Bridge - Horsham via Gatwick services back in the 90's. As for Tonbridge, I would have thought 455's would be perfect for this line. Perhaps reintroducing a half-hourly frequency and curtailing the service at Redhill would encourage more people to use it.

The Horsham routes are being converted to Thameslink route in 2018 so I think unlikely to be changed to 455's and I believe the 12 coach trains will start appearing from 2016 if they ever get ordered. The Caterham/Tattenham corner services as well but not as combined services. So I think in 2018 the 455's will certainly be spare and to start a new rumour available for transfer to SWT along with the 456's.

Also the Desiro Citys will start arriving in 2016 so maybe the replacements will be earlier on routes into London Bridge or Victoria.

There is going to be a major Timetable revamp in 2018 when Thameslink gets going. I suspect a lot of places will loose their direct Victoria Connection - maybe Tattenham/Caterham and intermediate stations on the Horsham lines as they will be fully served by just Thameslink trains (and with the connections at Farringdon the route to Central London and the West End will change for most people)

On the Tonbridge and Reigate branches from observations at Redhill (my main station) there is very little through traffic from Tonbridge but comparatively a lot from Reigate especially at peaks when Reigate portions arrive in the morning at Redhill with very few seats. However the Tonbridge trains tend to empty and then fill up at Redhill suggesting a good local traffic from Redhill along the branch.

Off Peak the 4 trains an hour to London Bridge used to run relatively empty when introduced but they have been very successful and now even off peak there can be standing at certain times especially inwards of Coulsdon South.

I can't see the 4 trains an hour service from Redhill being dropped in the rebuild and as it is only 2 trains an hour in the peak that is unlikely to be lost during the rebuild - more likely an imaginative solution may be found like splitting trains at East Croydon

I see, wasn't aware those branches were going over to Thameslink. Wikipedia mentions a Caterham - St Albans service, fast north of Norwood so I guess that will be the end of the stoppers to London Bridge. I agree with you on Redhill, even at weekends the service seems busier than before. Whenever I've seen the London Bridge - Reigate leave, though, it never seems to have more than a few people on it off-peak. It's a shame it can't be diverted to Brighton but I imagine pathing issues would get in the way.

 

[Minstral25]

Yes, am aware they work the Mole Valley to Horsham, having made many a journey on them. I also remember them on London Bridge - Horsham via Gatwick services back in the 90's. As for Tonbridge, I would have thought 455's would be perfect for this line. Perhaps reintroducing a half-hourly frequency and curtailing the service at Redhill would encourage more people to use it.




I see, wasn't aware those branches were going over to Thameslink. Wikipedia mentions a Caterham - St Albans service, fast north of Norwood so I guess that will be the end of the stoppers to London Bridge. I agree with you on Redhill, even at weekends the service seems busier than before. Whenever I've seen the London Bridge - Reigate leave, though, it never seems to have more than a few people on it off-peak. It's a shame it can't be diverted to Brighton but I imagine pathing issues would get in the way.

I used to regularly catch the Reigate train from London Bridge off peak and have been forced to stand. They do though ebb and flow during the day, some services being very busy and some being relatively empty.

They aren't necessary just for Reigate but they are part of a four train per hour service semi-fast between Redhill and London Bridge which doesn't need the same frequency from Redhill to Horsham so they are diverted to the Branches to provide the services on the branches. Reigate though could easily add another train per hour as there are lots of offices by the station.

In the rush hour the units used are added to the Horsham trains and make a half hourly service to Redhill from London Bridge - so they won't fill up the station during the peak anyway and thus probably won't be cut during the rebuilding

Neither Tonbridge or Reigate are Thameslink branches so it will be interesting to see what happens to them after the 2018 timetable change as there path will be taken by the new Horsham/Three Bridges to Cambridge/Peterborough trains. Perhaps they will form a local service to Victoria or get restricted to Branch only trains.

 

[Class377/5]

Neither Tonbridge or Reigate are Thameslink branches so it will be interesting to see what happens to them after the 2018 timetable change as there path will be taken by the new Horsham/Three Bridges to Cambridge/Peterborough trains. Perhaps they will form a local service to Victoria or get restricted to Branch only trains.

I was under the impression the Horsham/Three Bridges to London Bridges services are being extended rather than additional services, as this takes them away from the low level platforms as well.

I was only writing figuratively, but now that you've raised the specific point I can't see the southern part of the T/L network's berthing for the new trains being 'mainly at Three Bridges'.

The planning drawings for the site don't show anything like the capacity needed to berth a significant part of the fleet, only 18 units can be stabled, and 5 others can be undergoing maintenance - so I reckon it will be stabled all over the place just like current practice - on the other hand Three Bridges' allocation of the trains might be a large proportion of the fleet, maybe 50% or more, but that doesn't imply they all stable there.

There were similar thoughts when it was announced a few years ago that Siemens were to build a new depot for the SWT Dessies at Northam, Southampton. Only a handful of units are ever present at Northam, well over 90% are outberthed each night. However all the trains are allocated to Northam - I forsee a similar set up with Three Bridges and Hornsey.

Now I've back in work and looking at the diagrams we have of the final layout I can see where your coming from. But without knowing the full mix of units to be ordered I can't be completely sure how they are going to stable all the units. Especially when you start mixing the 8 cars into the mix.

I did a little bit of number work, out of the new units, once you get rid of the 319 the growth added is about 65 trains. Now take the extra space from the new build depots (about 35x 12 cars), Jowitt sidings (5x 12 cars). Working on the basis of 12 cars only (harder to fit into existing places hence me using them) your left with about 25 trains to find room for. Adding in the fact you can use any space on the ECML, BML & MML, it shouldn't be too hard.

 

[Minstral25]

I was under the impression the Horsham/Three Bridges to London Bridges services are being extended rather than additional services, as this takes them away from the low level platforms as well.

Do you mean in 2018 or now?

In 2018 they will move to Thameslink services (maybe a bit earlier) but they will still fill the restricted paths through Redhill Station.

They will also upgrade from 4 to 12 car trains in 2018 or earlier. At least all platforms three bridges to London Bridge are already 12 car.

Additionally I still don't see how 455's are likely to be used on Horsham/Tonbridge/Reigate trains before the 2016-18 take over by Desiros

 

[Class377/5]

Do you mean in 2018 or now?

In 2018 they will move to Thameslink services (maybe a bit earlier) but they will still fill the restricted paths through Redhill Station.

They will also upgrade from 4 to 12 car trains in 2018 or earlier. At least all platforms three bridges to London Bridge are already 12 car.

Additionally I still don't see how 455's are likely to be used on Horsham/Tonbridge/Reigate trains before the 2016-18 take over by Desiros

It's planned that they will be 12 car in mid to late 2016 with the new rolling stock. By 2018 they will be sent into Thameslink.

Note that post 2018 not all low level platforms at London Bridge will be 12 car (unless that's changed recently).

I doubt 455 will take over the services. Didn't realise these were currently only 4 cars, take it it's more in the peaks?

 

[swt_passenger]

Note that post 2018 not all low level platforms at London Bridge will be 12 car (unless that's changed recently).

I think it has. I found an updated drawing in the recent planning application, (attached below) it suggests all 6 terminating platforms will now be at least 12 car - assessed using the scale on the drawing.

This seems to be more than what was proposed in the drawings provided with the TWA order a few years ago.

 

[HSTEd]

Why would the 442s be scrapped? They most likely have plenty of life left in them even once Thameslink arrives, so surely they would most likely be sent back to South West Trains, perhaps to return to thier original stomping ground on the Wessex route?
Especially if electrification is extended to Salisbury/Marshlink/Uckfield. They would save ordering new trains for a decade or more.

 

[ushawk]

No plans to scrap the GatEx yet, so as long as that stays so would the 442's. Even if it was scrapped, the 442's would probably stay with Southern (although it would be weird seeing them in Southern colours).

 

[Class377/5]

I think it has. I found an updated drawing in the recent planning application, (attached below) it suggests all 6 terminating platforms will now be at least 12 car - assessed using the scale on the drawing.

This seems to be more than what was proposed in the drawings provided with the TWA order a few years ago.

Good, it was a stupid idea for them not to be all 12 cars.

 

[87015]

Good, it was a stupid idea for them not to be all 12 cars.

So many of the peak trains are 4/6 let alone 8 cars you'd hope most of the 455s being talked about would be retained for much needed strengthening to make those platform extensions worth having, bit of a waste otherwise.

 

[Class377/5]

So many of the peak trains are 4/6 let alone 8 cars you'd hope most of the 455s being talked about would be retained for much needed strengthening to make those platform extensions worth having, bit of a waste otherwise.

By the time it's all finished the full Thameslink fleet will be in operation so I wonder while the 455's be as needed.

 

[ushawk]

Southern have 46 4-car 455's according to Wikipedia, double them up and then you have 23 8-car 455's, depending on whether the 456s go to SWT or not, you could possibly add 1 to some of these to make them 10-car, although im not sure it thats possible. Id of thought the 455's would be able to cover the services the 377/6s arent running, would be a few left though.

Could even be an increase in services because of the about of units Southern have, would depend on the avaliablilty of paths of course.

 

[Minstral25]

It's planned that they will be 12 car in mid to late 2016 with the new rolling stock. By 2018 they will be sent into Thameslink.

I doubt 455 will take over the services. Didn't realise these were currently only 4 cars, take it it's more in the peaks?

I'd guess late 2016 or even 2017. The new trains have to replace the 319's first so they can be released for refurbishment and introduction on the new electrified lines. I suspect former Southern routes will be the last to see the new stock.

Off-Peak they are 4 4-car units per hour, these are coupled together to form 2 8-car trains per hour in the peak. I.e. no extra seats and thus extremely overcrowded trains on the Redhill route. Since the most recent timetable change they found an extra 4-car unit for one of the morning services, plus
2x 4-car units in the evening to extend to 12 car trains which is a great help.

What I don't get is that in the morning they run 2 12-car trains to Victoria but none back in the evening. Odd!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southern have 46 4-car 455's according to Wikipedia, double them up and then you have 23 8-car 455's, depending on whether the 456s go to SWT or not, you could possibly add 1 to some of these to make them 10-car, although im not sure it thats possible. Id of thought the 455's would be able to cover the services the 377/6s arent running, would be a few left though.

Could even be an increase in services because of the about of units Southern have, would depend on the avaliablilty of paths of course.

23 8-car 455's and 24 456's - a match made in heaven

Perhaps this order will mean some 4-car 377's heading back to the coast and the 313's being made available for somewhere else? You need 3-car 377's to make up 12 coach trains