Redhill (RDH) to Millbrook Bedfordshire (MLB)

[tsr]

Hello

Today (31/12/2011) I need to travel from Redhill (RDH) to Millbrook Bedfordshire (MLB). I need to arrive at Millbrook before 7pm, or a little earlier if possible. I need a Single ticket as I will be returning by car.

I need to travel via Gatwick Airport, but I can't see whether a Redhill > Millbrook ticket would be valid, due to the engineering works. I am not keen on the bustitution due to the fact that I will have luggage.

I would also like to travel via Victoria, London Underground and St Pancras rather than on FCC, as I think an FCC service will be a bit tedious.

Essentially, I would like to make the following journey:

Redhill > Gatwick Airport (am I allowed?)
Gatwick Airport > Victoria (can I use GatEx?)
Victoria > St Pancras (that's fine, so long as there is a Maltese cross on the ticket)
St Pancras > Bedford (can I use an express/fast service to Bedford? I'd like to if possible)
Bedford > Millbrook (yes, it has to be Millbrook, no other station will do!)

Now what should it cost? I seem to bring up a number of different fares when searching using NRE and, for reference, RSH.

I have a 16-25 Railcard and an Oyster card. I don't want to restrict my time of travel and I clearly need to be flexible with TOCs!

Thanks for your help!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Off-peak day single with restriction C4 (not applicable on weekends) is £25.90 with no railcards, plus it is routed '+Any Permitted', so you will be fine on LUL. However, I can't imagine it is valid via Gatwick Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
EDIT - You'll be fine on any service too, such as EMT from St Pancras-Bedford, but these can be busy.

 

[tsr]

There is no advice on NRE that I can see about travelling via GTW, but Redhill station staff seem to think you can. The last thing I want to do is end up with a UPFN, costly excess, or even a Penalty Fare, though, so I need to be certain it's valid via Gatwick.

I can buy a single to GTW, then start my ticket to Millbrook from there, if necessary, but I'd really rather not.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

£3.30 SDS from Redhill-Gatwick Airport, but I'll check valid routes for you now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not valid via Gatwick.

 

[tsr]

Another question: can I reserve a seat on a St Pancras > Bedford service when I buy the ticket, or, if I can't do this, do I need to look for a specific coach with unreserved seating? I'm planning on using an EMT service because they're faster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

£3.30 SDS from Redhill-Gatwick Airport, but I'll check valid routes for you now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not valid via Gatwick.

Oh dear. How much for a ticket via GTW?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Redhill-Millbrook is not valid via Gatwick Airport.

to go via Gatwick you'd need a single to Gatwick from Redhill and a single from Gatwick to Millbrook.

 

[MikeWh]

I get two fares when asking on NRE. £25.90 direct or £28.50 via Gatwick. This is split into £3.50 and £25.00 at the bottom. Strangely the £25 fare must be valid via Redhill which makes the direct fare a bit of a rip-off. I'd not recommend trying to use the direct fare via Gatwick though.

I must admit to being puzzled why you don't want to take luggage on a replacement bus, but you're happy to struggle up and down escalators and on a potentially rammed underground train when the FCC core is open tonight.

 

[tsr]

I thought it might be valid because the Redhill station staff are advising that tickets to London are valid via Gatwick due to engineering works closing the line between Purley and Redhill.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I must admit to being puzzled why you don't want to take luggage on a replacement bus, but you're happy to struggle up and down escalators and on a potentially rammed underground train when the FCC core is open tonight.

Have you ever tried to use a rail replacement bus to or from Redhill? I really don't recommend it. They are nearly always packed, slow, very noisy and often rather uncomfortable, in my experience.

The tube will be crowded, but I don't have to go as far on it.

 

[bb21]

I thought it might be valid because the Redhill station staff are advising that tickets to London are valid via Gatwick due to engineering works closing the line between Purley and Redhill.

I would say that if there is additional arrangements being put in giving less routeing restrictions in times of disruption, this is something only the local station staff team can tell you, and not us.

I would imagine that if tickets to London are being permitted for travel via Gatwick Airport, there is no reason why tickets valid via London are not. I would check with a few different people at Redhill to make sure that it is not just one member of staff making it up, to be absolutely sure, and then follow the advice.

 

[tsr]

I would say that if there is additional arrangements being put in giving less routeing restrictions in times of disruption, this is something only the local station staff team can tell you, and not us.

I would imagine that if tickets to London are being permitted for travel via Gatwick Airport, there is no reason why tickets valid via London are not. I would check with a few different people at Redhill to make sure that it is not just one member of staff making it up, to be absolutely sure, and then follow the advice.

I'll ask at the ticket office, and perhaps the person in the information centre on platforms 1/2. Since there are no northbound services, it would make sense for travel via GTW to be valid. But that doesn't mean it is valid.

Certainly some of my friends have said it's possible, but I don't know if they had their tickets checked. Or maybe it's only for season ticket holders who won't take kindly to buying extra tickets to travel as they normally should.

 

[yorkie]

Gatwick is not a "permitted route" but where there are engineering works then of course rail staff may give suitable advice authorising you to take a route that would not normally be permitted. If you are in any doubt that the advice given may be questioned further along the line, then I would suggest asking staff if they can provide some evidence for you to show later in the journey. However if you get a Southern operated train from Gatwick to Victoria (Southern operate all trains on this route; Gat Ex is merely a route brand and not a Company - confirmed by Barry Doe, some factions of ATOC, the DfT and Companies House) they should know what their own staff at Redhill are saying, and if you get an FCC train towards London Bridge, then the chances of seeing an RPI are about as likely as pigs flying, but if an RPI did attempt a Penalty Fare which is highly unlikely, we could get it quashed (and I'd advise you to take down the name and I'd contact a friendly FCC RPI on this forum who works that route asking him what on earth is going on!) and we would certainly help you in writing a strongly worded letter to FCC (and it would provide more ammunition in the arguments against PFs).

If Southern staff at Redhill are advising you go via Gatwick, then I would take that advice, and take one of the non-stop trains from Gatwick to Victoria on the Gatwick Express route operated by Southern - you will probably get a coach to yourself! Don't take one of the slower trains as these can be wedged and call at places like East Croydon where even more people may pile on (I've been unable to board at East Croydon sometimes due to overcrowding).

 

[tsr]

Gatwick is not a "permitted route" but where there are engineering works then of course rail staff may give suitable advice authorising you to take a route that would not normally be permitted. If you are in any doubt that the advice given may be questioned further along the line, then I would suggest asking staff if they can provide some evidence for you to show later in the journey. However if you get a Southern operated train from Gatwick to Victoria (Southern operate all trains on this route; Gat Ex is merely a route brand and not a Company - confirmed by Barry Doe, some factions of ATOC, the DfT and Companies House) they should know what their own staff at Redhill are saying, and if you get an FCC train towards London Bridge, then the chances of seeing an RPI are about as likely as pigs flying, but if an RPI did attempt a Penalty Fare which is highly unlikely, we could get it quashed (and I'd advise you to take down the name and I'd contact a friendly FCC RPI on this forum who works that route asking him what on earth is going on!) and we would certainly help you in writing a strongly worded letter to FCC (and it would provide more ammunition in the arguments against PFs).

If Southern staff at Redhill are advising you go via Gatwick, then I would take that advice, and take one of the non-stop trains from Gatwick to Victoria on the Gatwick Express route operated by Southern - you will probably get a coach to yourself! Don't take one of the slower trains as these can be wedged and call at places like East Croydon where even more people may pile on (I've been unable to board at East Croydon sometimes due to overcrowding).

I was thinking along roughly the same lines as what you've written, so thanks for that.

If an RPI is in doubt about GatEx, could you not quote Condition 10 and Appendix C of the NRCoC?

And I know all about East Croydon, trust me...

By the way, thanks all for your help. I'll let you know how I get on. I'll probably start by hopping on the 1535 or 1605 from Redhill, as I've calculated that they should leave me enough time.

 

[yorkie]

I was thinking along roughly the same lines as what you've written, so thanks for that.

If an RPI is in doubt about GatEx, could you not quote Condition 10 and Appendix C of the NRCoC?

If an RPI appears on Gat Ex, they will be employed by Southern (whether they admit it or not!) and will therefore be able to verify what Redhill station have said by contacting the station. If all else fails, pay the fare and we will appeal it later (taking it straight to the top, though Mr Burchell will get his usual person to write the response no doubt!)

Oh, and when someone asked at Victoria if anyone was familiar with Condition 10 of the NRCoC they said "no" and that they "don't need to be" because they "know the rules".

And I know all about East Croydon, trust me...

Yes, the sooner Southern admit to operating the non-stopping empty trains and they start calling at East Croydon the better!

By the way, thanks all for your help. I'll let you know how I get on. I'll probably start by hopping on the 1535 or 1605 from Redhill, as I've calculated that they should leave me enough time.

They are both booked to give a 6-minute cross platform (plat 5 to plat 6) change at Gatwick Airport onto the next available trains to Victoria (not an official connection but providing there's no delays it should be easy for you to achieve)

 

[34D]

I am not keen on the bustitution due to the fact that I will have luggage.

I would also like to travel via Victoria, London Underground and St Pancras rather than on FCC, as I think an FCC service will be a bit tedious.

Like mike, I am also confused as to why you don't want a coach driver to load your luggage into his luggage locker, yet you'll happily take a half mile walk under Pancras Road.

I really would recommend the fast direct Gatwick-Bedford service. If you really want to travel on EMT then I would get FCC as far as SPILL

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Like mike, I am also confused as to why you don't want a coach driver to load your luggage into his luggage locker, yet you'll happily take a half mile walk under Pancras Road.

I really would recommend the fast direct Gatwick-Bedford service. If you really want to travel on EMT then I would get FCC as far as SPILL

I'm not too sure if TL is fully open on weekends yet. Plus, SPILL? Spital Low Level?

 

[tsr]

I'm pleased to report the journey worked fine and my Redhill-Millbrook ticket was valid via Gatwick. All staff, announcements and indicator boards at Redhill were advising passengers that "circulating via Horley and Gatwick Airport" was permitted. The Gatwick Express had no ticket checks and my ticket went straight through one of the new barriers. The walk from the tube at St Pancras to the High Level platforms wasn't actually too bad and I caught the 1730 EMT departure which called at Bedford (I think it was going on to Lincoln). The Marston Vale Line was in an eccentric little world of its own, which was rather nice.

I'm very glad I didn't get the rail replacement bus because it was a very small vehicle loaned from the Metrobus fleet, and it was looking absolutely crammed. Hardly a coach!

 

[JonathanH]

All staff, announcements and indicator boards at Redhill were advising passengers that "circulating via Horley and Gatwick Airport" was permitted. The Gatwick Express had no ticket checks and my ticket went straight through one of the new barriers.

While circulation via Horley or Gatwick Airport was valid, travelling on Gatwick Express was explicitly not permitted under the arrangements put in place for this block.

http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...wick-express-christmas-and-new-year-services/

"Passengers can travel to London via Gatwick Airport (not Gatwick Express)"

 

[34D]

I'm not too sure if TL is fully open on weekends yet. Plus, SPILL? Spital Low Level?

He specified fri 31st. St Pancras Int Low Level

 

[yorkie]

To abbreviate St Pancras, please use STP (You can provide a hyperlink to station info by using the [stn] tag like this: [stn]STP[/stn] )

While circulation via Horley or Gatwick Airport was valid, travelling on Gatwick Express was explicitly not permitted under the arrangements put in place for this block.

http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...wick-express-christmas-and-new-year-services/

"Passengers can travel to London via Gatwick Airport (not Gatwick Express)"

I don't think some small print on a website can possibly form any part of the contract, the customer would have to be told if any trains were barred at Redhill in my opinion.

There's no way for Southern to enforce such restrictions as they no longer put revenue staff on these trains, and even if they attempted to enforce it I do not see how website small print could be enforced, and if they are allowing travel via Gatwick I do not see how they can exclude some of their trains being valid and some not; under what part of the NRCoC would they charge someone?

 

[MikeWh]

I don't think some small print on a website can possibly form any part of the contract, the customer would have to be told if any trains were barred at Redhill in my opinion.

We don't know whether there were explicit posters or hand-written notices at Redhill. Having commuted to there for 4.5 years some while ago I'd suggest that there may well have been. The staff may also have been telling passengers of the alternative arrangements. One evening when the line north was blocked unexpectedly there were regular announcements saying that you could circulate via Gatwick but could not use Gatwick Express.

There's no way for Southern to enforce such restrictions as they no longer put revenue staff on these trains, and even if they attempted to enforce it I do not see how website small print could be enforced, and if they are allowing travel via Gatwick I do not see how they can exclude some of their trains being valid and some not; under what part of the NRCoC would they charge someone?

Granted the lack of revenue staff causes enforcement issues, though I gather there are some on board occasionally. The easement also allowed travel on FCC services, so was not specifically restricted to Southern.

I don't know what part of the NRCoC might be breached, but as the easement was just that (additional validity) are they not allowed to specify how it can be used? This isn't a case of using a Southern only ticket on trains run by Southern, it's allowing use of a ticket that wouldn't normally be valid via Gatwick on certain trains via Gatwick. As long as a poster/notice/announcemnet at Redhill made the situation clear, I'd suggest that ignoring the restriction could be legally upheld. IANAL however.

 

[tsr]

None of the posters, dot-matrix screens or audio announcements mentioned Gatwick Express services in any way, nor did the guard on the train I used between Redhill and Gatwick Airport when he made his own announcement - interestingly, all these announcements were exceedingly clear that passengers travelling towards London could travel via Horley or Gatwick Airport, though. I also explicitly asked the member of staff in the ticket office if I could use the ticket on any operator's services, and whether ticket inspectors would know this, and he said that I could and that they would all know. If they carry on insisting that GatEx is a separate operator, even though it isn't, I expect the answer to that question would have covered me.

If I remember correctly, the law in this country dictates that any terms and conditions relating the use of any service you purchase must be reasonably clearly displayed at the time of purchase. That website is not something that is clearly displayed.

 

[MikeWh]

None of the posters, dot-matrix screens or audio announcements mentioned Gatwick Express services in any way, nor did the guard on the train I used between Redhill and Gatwick Airport when he made his own announcement - interestingly, all these announcements were exceedingly clear that passengers travelling towards London could travel via Horley or Gatwick Airport, though. I also explicitly asked the member of staff in the ticket office if I could use the ticket on any operator's services, and whether ticket inspectors would know this, and he said that I could and that they would all know. If they carry on insisting that GatEx is a separate operator, even though it isn't, I expect the answer to that question would have covered me.

If I remember correctly, the law in this country dictates that any terms and conditions relating the use of any service you purchase must be reasonably clearly displayed at the time of purchase. That website is not something that is clearly displayed.

In which case I agree that it should be fine. It was a few years ago when I was in a similar sitaution.