1st upgrade on morning commute

[dvboy]

I commute Wolverhampton-Birmingham on a nNetwork zones 1-5 season ticket

If I wanted to upgrade to First Class one morning on the 0845 VT departure, how much would the excess be and how would I go about paying for it, at the ticket office or on the train?

 

[John @ home]

how much would the excess be and how would I go about paying for it, at the ticket office or on the train?

If you pay an excess fare at the first opportunity, eg. at a ticket office, then Season ticket holders pay the difference between the price of the Standard and First Class Single ticket available for immediate travel for the journey being made.

If you choose to walk past an open ticket office and then pay on the train only when asked, then Season ticket holders pay the full First Class Single fare for the journey being made as if no ticket held.

 

[causton]

£1.50 (£4.60-£3.10) if you ask before as said above

 

[dvboy]

so £1.50 being the difference between a VT Only anytime day single at £3.10 and a VT Only first anytime day single at £4.60

 

[AlterEgo]

so £1.50 being the difference between a VT Only anytime day single at £3.10 and a VT Only first anytime day single at £4.60

Yes. Std to First Excesses on season tickets are done by treating your season ticket as a Standard Anytime (or Anytime Day) ticket, if you are travelling in the peak of course.

 

[dvboy]

thanks for your help

 

[bengolding]

£1.50 will give you access to the First Lounge (if they bother to open the door, that is) where you can have cereal plus hot and cold drinks. Plus you can use the Lounge at New St on arrival.

On board, £1.50 will get you a copy of the Independent or FT plus a tea or c offee before New St (if the hosts can be bothered to start the service before then).

Seems very good value to me .

 

[dvboy]

Not much point using the lounge on platform 4 if the service departs from platform 2 (it will have been sat there from 8.11am also)!

Good to know about the free drinks in the lounges as well as on board though, as that's cheaper than just one from Pumpkin with a bite card.

I might do it more often should it prove worthwhile.

 

[jon0844]

If you boarded the train and asked to upgrade before going into first, would you still have to pay the full price?

 

[AlterEgo]

If you boarded the train and asked to upgrade before going into first, would you still have to pay the full price?

Strictly speaking, no, as you hadn't asked for the excess at the first available opportunity (assuming you boarded at a station with an open booking office etc).

I'd be surprised if any guard/train manager would refuse in the circumstances though, unless they had a diktat from management specifically prohibiting them from selling such upgrades.

 

[amcluesent]

WHat would the £ be for a PBO-KGX season ticket holder wanting to travel in FC on EC if they've had a bad day at work?

 

[AlterEgo]

WHat would the £ be for a PBO-KGX season ticket holder wanting to travel in FC on EC f they've hand a bad day at work?

I assume you mean a Rte: Any Permitted season ticket rather than a FCC Only one?

It'd be £15.50 from my calculations.

SOS £49.50
FOS £65.00

Difference = £15.50

Not bad for a one-off treat actually. I'm surprised it's not over £25.00.

 

[Jock]

WHat would the £ be for a PBO-KGX season ticket holder wanting to travel in FC on EC f they've hand a bad day at work?

The difference between the SOS and FOS as posted above.

 

[amcluesent]

Not bad for a one-off treat actually.

Aye, I suppose the complimentary G&T is 'worth' £3 at London prices, maybe £2 for food, plus it would be £5 to use the FC lounge, so it's a fiver in real terms.

 

[calc7]

Will EC allow passengers to "upgrade" on the train?
Agreed that £15.50 is a mighty good price, but queueing at KGX amongst all the tourists, angry commuters and general flotsam to purchase the excess takes away much of the appeal.

 

[amcluesent]

Will EC allow passengers to "upgrade" on the train?

Hmm, not so sure. EC always announce that unless your ticket is 100% kosher for that service, then they can only sell full price singles on board and pax should return to the Travel Centre

 

[AlterEgo]

Will EC allow passengers to "upgrade" on the train?
Agreed that £15.50 is a mighty good price, but queueing at KGX amongst all the tourists, angry commuters and general flotsam to purchase the excess takes away much of the appeal.

Unlikely, as that wouldn't be the "first available opportunity". (Remember the rules say no) You'd run the risk of suspicion that you were trying to avoid paying.

 

[John @ home]

If you boarded the train and asked to upgrade before going into first, would you still have to pay the full price?

I'd be surprised if any guard/train manager would refuse in the circumstances though, unless they had a diktat from management specifically prohibiting them from selling such upgrades.

Will EC allow passengers to "upgrade" on the train?

The reply to a request under the Freedom of Information Act has revealed that East Coast operate slightly different rules.

The October 2009 issue of the East Coast document "How to calculate on-board excess fares" is attached. It was part of the FoI reply in February 2011. The relevant paragraph is:

First Class Travel with a Standard Class Ticket

Season Tickets (7 Day, One Month or longer)

Opportunity to buy ticket before boarding the train
The Conditions of Carriage state that season ticket upgrades must be done before travel so charge appropriate fare as though no ticket were held.
However, if the journey is EC-only, and the passenger approaches you before the journey commences, EC will extend the upgrade facility to on-train. (Passengers who do not do this and wait for ticket inspection staff to approach them should be charged the full First Single as per NRCoC 38, or move to Standard accommodation). Charge the difference between the appropriate Standard and First class fares for journey or if cheaper charge the full First Anytime / Day fare for the journey. No Railcard discounts.

No opportunity to buy ticket before boarding the train
Charge the difference between the appropriate Standard and First class fares for journey or if cheaper charge the full First Anytime / Day fare for the journey. No Railcard discounts.

 

[calc7]

Interesting - thanks.
To add, on my KGX-EDB run last week (first stop PBO), the guard was quite happily excessing people's SDS/SDRs to FDS/FDRs.

 

[tony_mac]

Could you argue that, as your season ticket is valid 'Any Permitted', and you want a 'Virgin only' ticket, then the excess should be 30p?

 

[calc7]

Could you argue that, as your season ticket is valid 'Any Permitted', and you want a 'Virgin only' ticket, then the excess should be 30p?

IIRC you can't excess from Any Permitted to operator-specific?

 

[ValleyLines142]

A few years back when going from Cardiff to Blackpool via Crewe and Preston, I ended up getting a free upgrade into First Class because the 158 I was on from Cardiff-Manchester hit a person crossing the line just south of Crewe, so I missed my connection and ended up getting an 1137 service to Carlisle. I remember it left from platform 11 at Crewe, was Pendolino 390037. It was absolutely rammed to the rafters (as a result of the delays) and my Mother asked for a free upgrade into FC and the train manager allowed us to! However, he did say that even on a normal day, it would only have been £5 extra per person to upgrade!

 

[dvboy]

IIRC you can't excess from Any Permitted to operator-specific?

Is a season ticket considered an Any Permitted ticket? Should I really be paying the difference between the fares that aren't operator specific?

I would give it a try but I'm commuting half an hour later this week.

 

[calc7]

Is a season ticket considered an Any Permitted ticket? Should I really be paying the difference between the fares that aren't operator specific?

I would give it a try but I'm commuting half an hour later this week.

Just my personal opinion, but I'd have thought so. It's valid on all permitted routes and operators between the origin and destinations on the ticket, and the existence of some operator-specific season tickets (eg some LM Only ones on the WCML) could help prove it contrapositively.

 

[AlterEgo]

However, he did say that even on a normal day, it would only have been £5 extra per person to upgrade!

That would be for a child, on weekends and Bank Holidays only.

 

[bb21]

IIRC you can't excess from Any Permitted to operator-specific?

Of course you can. Strictly speaking an operator-specific ticket cannot be excessed, however forum members' experiences have shown that it can and has be done before.

Is a season ticket considered an Any Permitted ticket? Should I really be paying the difference between the fares that aren't operator specific?

I would give it a try but I'm commuting half an hour later this week.

If a ticket is routed Any Permitted then it is Any Permitted, whether it is a single, return or season ticket.

 

[yorkie]

IIRC you can't excess from Any Permitted to operator-specific?

Yes you can, however if it is on the return journey then they may request evidence that the ticket has not been used on another operators' service on the outward journey.

 

[dvboy]

If a ticket is routed Any Permitted then it is Any Permitted, whether it is a single, return or season ticket.

Well technically my ticket is routed "NWM CORP SCHEME"

 

[OwlMan]

Is a Network West Midlands travelcard a season ticket? It certainly does not count as one under the break of journey cause of the NRCOC.

Peter

 

[dvboy]

If it's not a season ticket, what is it? Break of journey doesn't apply anyway as it's a zonal ticket.

edit: I see what you are getting at - you mean split-ticketing, not break of journey.

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

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APPENDIX A DEFINITIONS
In these Conditions:-
[...](o) “Season Ticket” means a ticket (including an Electronic Ticket) which allows you
to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer and will have one or more of
the following characteristics:
(i) it shows the word “Season”;
(ii) it shows the word “Travelcard”;
(iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number;

Under that definition it is a Season Ticket.