EMT Unpaid Fare Notice update

[RJ]

The postman brought two important letters this week.

One arrived this afternoon from the No. 1 of ticketing and the Head of Customer Relations of East Midlands Trains confirming that the split tickets I use are valid although the NRCoC is to be updated in the "very near future." Glad it came as even earlier today, I travelled and the guard insisted it wasn't valid then phoned revenue and the prosecutions department, who also said it wasn't valid. This headed letter will put paid to that.

The other was from the Independent Appeals service. It was a refund following the confirmation that the Unpaid Fare Notice had been cancelled. However, I'm not satisfied with the refund as the IAS seem to think that as a ticketless traveller, I should have paid for a Priv Anytime Single. Had I not been explicit in communicating that I wanted a Priv Rover, I would have accepted that. Seems that they're making up the rules as they go along.

Since the incident, I understand that revenue managers for several TOCs have been instucted to advise their RP staff what to do with ticketless travellers who could not buy the ticket they required.

Also, I was shocked a few days ago when an EMT guard checked my ticket properly. For the last few months, I've presented the same type of ticket to guards across the country and not a single one inspected it the way that they're supposed to. I was so surprised that I went to talk to him when I got off the train. I told him that a number of his colleagues [through not knowing their job properly] have been attempting to "do" me for various reasons without success and even showed the IAS successful appeal letter with the cheque attached. I brought up the 4 way split tickets (using a Zone 1-2 TC as the season ticket) and he knew that it was valid. I was astounded that he even knew where the three splitting points were without me telling him. The guy was a credit to the job and seemed to know all the tricks in the book. If there were more staff like this who actually knew their job, it would make my life easier. Although, there are probably some people on here who wouldn't like that as intentional fare evasion through reliance on staff's ignorance is standard procedure in some circles .

 

[34D]

The postman brought two important letters this week.

Glad you got the result you wanted. Does this relate to an earlier thread?

 

[RJ]

I arrived at the station at approximately 19:05 with the intention of catching the next service to London St. Pancras. The ticket office was closed. I went to the East Midlands Trains member of staff who was manning the barriers, x. I explained that I had a Priv and wished to buy the relevant discounted tickets I was after. He opened the barriers for me and advised me to have a word with the TM on the train with regards to purchasing a ticket. This can be verified by CCTV.

On the train now, the Train Manager came through checking tickets. I asked her if I could buy my tickets from her, explaining that the ticket office was closed. I then had to go through the rigmarole of explaining that Ticket Vending Machines do not offer Priv tickets, as if this isn't common knowledge to anyone who's employed on the railways. I then told her that the gateline assistant permitted me to board the train and buy a ticket from her.

She asked me where I was going. I told her London, but I did not want an Anytime ticket to London. She expressed frustration when I told her the tickets I wanted to buy, because they were split tickets. What I wanted to buy, was a Rover [plus relevent split tickets] This would have cost £x and was a valid combination for the service I was using. I have sound reasons for wishing to buy those tickets. Most importantly, it was a valid combination and I would have purchased it from the ticket office if it was open. She tried to say that she was only willing to sell an Anytime ticket without discount and I politely declined, expressing that I would have liked to buy the tickets I was originally after.

Because there was a clear stalemate, I politely told her I wasn't paying that more than I had planned to when the ticket office was shut in the first place. Not wishing to antagonise the situation, without being asked, I volunteered my name and address and said that she was free to issue a Penalty Fare Notice or Travel Irregularity report if she didn't want to issue the tickets. She told me she was going to report the incident and asked where my home depot was. I politely told her that I had no obligation to provide anything other than my name and address and refused to give her any other details, other than my employer, which is given on the Priv.

The TM then disappeared with my details to make a phonecall to her Control. I don't know what was said as she went into a different carriage. When she returned, she said Control had verified the ticket office would have been shut. She said that she was told not to sell me anything other than an Anytime Return from Loughborough to London with the Priv discount at a cost of £34.90. Given the tickets I wanted were cheaper and would have allowed me to carry out a planned visit to x later in the week, I declined.
The TM went off again to dispatch the train. When she returned, she presented me with an Unpaid Fare Notice which had been filled out, with the exception of the Authoriy Number and my signature. I asked her to fill out the Authority Number field, but she refused to. I then requested to pay the Unpaid Fares notice. She refused, telling me that she'd already filled out that I hadn't paid anything and was unwilling to change that. I had no idea that she was going to issue a UFN, hence I was given no opportunity to give a part or full payment. I then stressed again that I wanted to pay, but she refused again on the basis that she was not willing to fill out another form. I signed to say that the personal and journey details were correct and that was it.

The notice was for an Anytime Return to London with a Priv discount. The reasoning for issuing an Unpaid Fare Notice for a return with a Priv discount, as opposed to a single was not made clear.

Once the train arrived at St Pancras International, I approached the TM again and highlighted that the lack of Authority Number was going to cause problems. She refused to fill it out and told me that East Midlands Trains didn't provide her with one, claiming that it was company policy not to fill out that field. At that point, she walked off before I could say anything else and I got off the train.

That's a report of what happened. I could add that her attitude stank - I outright asked if it was appropriate that I should be penalised when the ticket office was shut. Her response was along the lines of "Well it's your fault for starting your journey when the ticket office was shut." She also said that I should have purchased the tickets when I last travelled. I told her I had no idea when I was going to make this trip and that I last travelled almost a week before. She said that as I was staff, I should have known better. I told her that I had no idea what the opening hours of the ticket office were as I'd only been there a handful of times during the middle of the day. She said "well it's 7pm, do you really expect it to be open?" I told her that small shacks local to me like South Bermondsey were open until past midnight when the last train leaves. She said "well that's London, you should know better than to turn up to a small station in the middle of nowhere at 7pm expecting the ticket office to be open." Despite the foolishness she was coming out with, she was getting increasingly agitated at the length of her time I was taking up, telling me that she had a whole train to get through and dispatching duties to get on with. That was not really my problem, I was very specific with the tickets I wanted to buy and it could have been done and dusted in less than 2 minutes. Instead, she decided to treat me like a fare evader, even after she had verified with her control that the ticket office was indeed shut. She claimed she was going to report me and asked who I worked for. She scoffed and rolled up her eyes when I said which TOC, which I found quite unnecessary and unprofessional. Despite the itching temptation to mirror her behaviour, I remained ridiculously polite throughout and didn't give her any ammunition whatsoever.

Since, I reported the incident to my employer, ATOC, EMT customer relations/revenue/prosecutions, IRCAS/IAS and discussed it with managers I know who work in revenue and prosecutions for other TOCs. All of them say I was unfairly treated. If these guards used some common sense once in a while then it would be better all around. If someone who could not buy an appropriate ticket at their origin, initially says to you "the ticket office was closed, can I buy this with x discount," you don't treat them life a fare evader and give them hassle in front of a train full of people. You sell them the ticket they require, if satisfied they had no opportunity to get that ticket. At best, failure to do so is poor customer service.

 

[Ferret]

.... When she returned, she presented me with an Unpaid Fare Notice which had been filled out, with the exception of the Authoriy Number and my signature. I asked her to fill out the Authority Number field, but she refused to. I then requested to pay the Unpaid Fares notice. She refused, telling me that she'd already filled out that I hadn't paid anything and was unwilling to change that. I had no idea that she was going to issue a UFN, hence I was given no opportunity to give a part or full payment. I then stressed again that I wanted to pay, but she refused again on the basis that she was not willing to fill out another form. I signed to say that the personal and journey details were correct and that was it.

The notice was for an Anytime Return to London with a Priv discount. The reasoning for issuing an Unpaid Fare Notice for a return with a Priv discount, as opposed to a single was not made clear.

Once the train arrived at St Pancras International, I approached the TM again and highlighted that the lack of Authority Number was going to cause problems. She refused to fill it out and told me that East Midlands Trains didn't provide her with one, claiming that it was company policy not to fill out that field. At that point, she walked off before I could say anything else and I got off the train.

Speaking from my TOC's point of view, UFNs are for single journeys and not returns, and an authority number must be correctly filled in or the notice can/probably will be invalid. I'd imagine EMT have the same policy......

I don't think I need to add anything else to what we discussed via PM RJ!

 

[RJ]

I think as far as refunds go, I will leave the matter now. I will complain to EMT about the bad customer service I received on that day and that the lack of authority number meant I could not appeal online, forcing me to spend more money and time tripping to the post office to send off my appeal.

I wouldn't be proud of a successful appeal on the basis of a technicality such as a missing detail. It seems the IAS agreed that I should not have been penalised, although they have a policy to retain the fare due for that journey.

Hopefully, armed with the letter and also the message from the ATOC member of staff who sent out that memo, I can avoid any future issues on board. It's a shame that I had to go to the level of Pricing Managers and Heads of Operations to get it sorted out, but where needs must...

 

[clagmonster]

I arrived at the station at approximately 19:05 with the intention of catching the next service to London St. Pancras. The ticket office was closed. I went to the East Midlands Trains member of staff who was manning the barriers, x. I explained that I had a Priv and wished to buy the relevant discounted tickets I was after. He opened the barriers for me and advised me to have a word with the TM on the train with regards to purchasing a ticket. This can be verified by CCTV.

The one thing you have not done is comply with Condition 3:
"3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Assuming you had a method of payment which the TVM was accepting, you should have purchased a ticket up to the value of the combination of tickets you wished to buy (or as close as you can get), if possible in the direction in which you were travelling.

Otherwise I agree with your views.

 

[causton]

Is there nothing (I had a quick glance of the NRCoC and couldn't see it) that says that if a member of staff lets you do something then you are allowed to do it?
If they wanted RJ to comply with condition 3 they should not have let him through the barriers without a ticket at all, implying to RJ that he could take the course of action that he described to the gateline staff...

 

[jon0844]

How long might it take to find any old ticket that adds up to the amount you should be paying? And how many people know what their ticket(s) are going to cost?

By all means put Permit to Travel machines back into operation though. I can't believe that they were scrapped by most TOCs when gates can be left open after 8pm and TVMs either don't issue all the tickets/discounts required or even sit there saying 'OUT OF SERVICE - NO TICKET STOCK' because staff didn't bother to change the roll.

Is there nothing (I had a quick glance of the NRCoC and couldn't see it) that says that if a member of staff lets you do something then you are allowed to do it?
If they wanted RJ to comply with condition 3 they should not have let him through the barriers without a ticket at all, implying to RJ that he could take the course of action that he described to the gateline staff...

A number of threads on here have shown me that you really must be VERY careful if someone working for the railway really does say you can do something - as it may be ignored/not believed later on, getting you in serious trouble.

We've all heard about people lying about 'that man on the platform' who gave them permission to do anything, but clearly in some cases people ARE being told things that may be wrong - but how does Joe Public (or even rail staff) get to know when staff are right or wrong?

 

[RJ]

Is there nothing (I had a quick glance of the NRCoC and couldn't see it) that says that if a member of staff lets you do something then you are allowed to do it?
If they wanted RJ to comply with condition 3 they should not have let him through the barriers without a ticket at all, implying to RJ that he could take the course of action that he described to the gateline staff...

In that case, they should have stung me for the full fare with no discount then. The guard didn't want to issue the rover because she didn't want to get into trouble for selling a "non Anytime" ticket on board. She said it was my problem that the ticket office was shut and that she wasn't going to make it her problem by getting into trouble for issuing a rover.

Customer service at its finest. Despite having a strict on board policy, I know for a fact that the guards have a higher degree of autonomy than she was implying. I just think she didn't like the look of me and frustrated that she got nowhere with her quest to prove that I was fare evading, decided to cause me as much stress as possible. The very first thing I said to her was "I need to buy a ticket from you," I was incredibly polite throughout and I even volunteered my name and address and said I would not protest if a PFN, TIR or MG11 was done, because she was banging on about me taking up her time. I did nothing whatsoever to warrant the treatment I received. Considering I've also been on the side of someone dealing with ticketless travellers, I know precisely how difficult some passengers can be. If someone was clearly not trying it on, I would never, ever persist and treat them in that way. If I did, I wouldn't expect them to be polite back - I'd expect them to either get very distressed or very abusive. I have no doubt that she was actively trying to wind me up, but I simply refused to react. In the end the worst she could do was a UFN - I doubt she was PF authorised and she clearly wasn't stupid as she chose not to do the TIR or MG11. So what possible explanation could there be for her behaviour?

 

[34D]

So what possible explanation could there be for her behaviour?

Depends if it happens for one week every month....

This is appalling customer service - and I cannot believe that shed treat a railway colleague in this way.

I think I was originally sceptical on your previous thread - so for that I apologise.

HOWEVER, for the benefit of others, may I use this thread to make two points:

Many people with an irregularity say "the man at the station said" - now the fact that Derby was barriered shows that your version of events must be true (as barriers can't open themselves), however this should remind people to get the name of staff involved

I would also highlight that _possibly_ if this guy had sought out the guard instead of waiting for her to walk through, that things may have been different.

I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong at all here, I'm just making a point for others to bear in mind

 

[222007]

RJ thanks for giving more details now. As an RPI myself i'd be ashamed if i saw a member of staff treat you in this way. For my TOC we recieve e-mails to our blackberry if booking offices are closed. We all should know that if booking offices are closed we can retail a full range of tickets on board. As for the UPFN not being correctly filled out i do wonder whether the member of staff failed to do this to try hide her identity although surely her pad is registered to her.

I'm always greatful when theres another member of staff on board in case of emergencies but treating someone like this is just disgraceful. All the best xx

 

[Ferret]

RJ thanks for giving more details now. As an RPI myself i'd be ashamed if i saw a member of staff treat you in this way. For my TOC we recieve e-mails to our blackberry if booking offices are closed. We all should know that if booking offices are closed we can retail a full range of tickets on board. As for the UPFN not being correctly filled out i do wonder whether the member of staff failed to do this to try hide her identity although surely her pad is registered to her.

I'm always greatful when theres another member of staff on board in case of emergencies but treating someone like this is just disgraceful. All the best xx

The pad will be registered to her, so it was a futile attempt at hiding her identity, though it does suggest she knew she'd done wrong.

 

[Blindtraveler]

glad to hear RJ That this has been resolved.0read your first thread on here but felt I had nothing to contribute at the time. What i wil say though is that for me it raises questions about EMT and there acceptance of purfectly legal and allowable splitting as I 2 have had issues with this and was also humiliated and made to feel like0Id done wrong!

 

[richa2002]

I've had one too many of these kind of experiences on the railway. It's certainly made driving places a whole lot more appealing...

 

[embers25]

Assuming you had a method of payment which the TVM was accepting, you should have purchased a ticket up to the value of the combination of tickets you wished to buy (or as close as you can get), if possible in the direction in which you were travelling.

Otherwise I agree with your views.

SWT enforce this rule as well and when I raised the issue of what if the station you are going to is the cheapest fare and every other fare is more expensive I was told to pay the higher fare and claim a refund on the train (which obviously a guard between Pinhoe and Exeter Central would have plenty of time and desire to do!). The whole concept that because ticket machines don't sell the full fares range I should buy an incorrect or more expensive ticket is just flat wrong. Can you imagine the uproar if all ticket machines on the tube only sold fares to zone 1 and with no discounts available!

 

[RJ]

The one thing you have not done is comply with Condition 3:
"3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Assuming you had a method of payment which the TVM was accepting, you should have purchased a ticket up to the value of the combination of tickets you wished to buy (or as close as you can get), if possible in the direction in which you were travelling.

Otherwise I agree with your views.

That condition is badly worded. It makes it very easy for fraudsters to protect themselves and makes a mockery of enforcement of some cases involving overriding. Meanwhile, someone like me who held a valid ticket for part of the journey (Zone 1-2 Travelcard) and unable to buy an appropriate ticket from the TVM is still liable to pay the full fare.

Imagine I started my journey at Derby and only held a Derby to Spondon season ticket. I'd have been liable to pay the Derby - London SOS with no discounts, that's if the guard didn't choose to initiate a prosecution for overriding. But someone who bought a Derby - Spondon SDS from the TVM would be allowed to purchase the full range of tickets. Well, rules are rules I suppose.

 

[yorkie]

"The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel."

Not on SWT! A couple of days ago, a customer travelled from Kew Bridge with the intention of buying a Travelcard. The ticket machine was not applying the correct minimum fare for a Travelcard, and therefore was going to charge them far more than the correct fare. So he had to buy a single to Waterloo.

Was this single deducted from the price of the Travelcard? No it wasn't. I accompanied the customer to see what the reaction of the ticket clerk at Waterloo would be. The reaction of the rather rude individual was to say there was nothing he could do other than apply for a refund of the original ticket and buy a brand new ticket, and the refund could take "up to 2 weeks".

I don't have much confidence in Stagecoach to act correctly, the problems come from the very top.

 

[RJ]

Well apparently, the NRCoC takes no precedence over the statutory auspices of the byelaws and RoR legislature.

I may well need to make the journey described again, i.e at short notice when the ticket office is shut. Even if I buy a ticket from the TVM, the guard may refuse to offer a full range of tickets. If I'm asked to pay the full fare and refuse to pay it as I'm entitled to a discount or wish to buy split tickets, I am still liable to be convicted for intent to fare evade, if the appeal fails. The advice is to pay the full fare for the journey then hope that customer services decides, at their discretion, to authorise an unspecified percentage of refund a few weeks later, in the form of rail travel vouchers. This applies for any journey made by rail.

Impartiality is a fallacy.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Not on SWT! A couple of days ago, a customer travelled from Kew Bridge with the intention of buying a Travelcard. The ticket machine was not applying the correct minimum fare for a Travelcard, and therefore was going to charge them far more than the correct fare. So he had to buy a single to Waterloo.

Was this single deducted from the price of the Travelcard? No it wasn't. I accompanied the customer to see what the reaction of the ticket clerk at Waterloo would be. The reaction of the rather rude individual was to say there was nothing he could do other than apply for a refund of the original ticket and buy a brand new ticket, and the refund could take "up to 2 weeks".

I don't have much confidence in Stagecoach to act correctly, the problems come from the very top.

This is quite disappointing to hear tbh. Kew Bridge is in Zone 3, so the customer should have been able to purchase a Z1-4 Travelcard from the TVM, all TVM's are set up to sell these if it's in the elligible area so I can't understand why the customer was unable to find it on the system. With regards to min fare, do you mean a railcard discounted Travelcard?

Kew Bridge is unstaffed, so if the Travelcard was genuinely not on the TVM, then either the Guard (if a commercial one) or the RPI's at Waterloo should have been able to excess the single to a travelcard, although I'm not 100% sure if this is technically possible!

How was the ticket clerk rude? saying there's nothing he can do is not rude, it may well be factual. If there's anything else this clerk did to seem "rude" then please mention it otherwise I doubt what you have said.

 

[yorkie]

This is quite disappointing to hear tbh. Kew Bridge is in Zone 3, so the customer should have been able to purchase a Z1-4 Travelcard from the TVM, all TVM's are set up to sell these if it's in the elligible area so I can't understand why the customer was unable to find it on the system. With regards to min fare, do you mean a railcard discounted Travelcard?

Yes, it was set up incorrectly, the general minimum fare of £12 does not apply to certain ticket types such as Advance (no minimum) and Travelcards, £5.30.

Kew Bridge is unstaffed, so if the Travelcard was genuinely not on the TVM, then either the Guard (if a commercial one) or the RPI's at Waterloo should have been able to excess the single to a travelcard, although I'm not 100% sure if this is technically possible!

These trains do not have commercial guards.

How was the ticket clerk rude? saying there's nothing he can do is not rude, it may well be factual. If there's anything else this clerk did to seem "rude" then please mention it otherwise I doubt what you have said.

I am disappointed you doubt what I have said. The way he spoke was rude, but consistent with previous occasions that I and others have asked questions at Waterloo ticket office, sadly, so not unexpected. But disappointing nevertheless.

 

[John @ home]

The advice is to pay the full fare for the journey then hope ...

Who is supplying this advice?

 

[RJ]

It's not advice supplied in an official capacity, just read on another forum.

The law requires you to pay for a ticket if requested. It doesn't matter if you're willing and "entitled" to buy a cheaper ticket, if you don't buy a ticket when requested then it makes it easy for a TOC to prosecute. Civil remedy is optional. That clause in the NRCoC needs revising as it misleads people into believing that they cannot be penalised if they comply.

 

[Brucey]

RJ, out of interest, when given the UPFN to sign, did you note down/mark it in anyway stating that you offered to pay £xx.xx but it was refused by the TM?

 

[John @ home]

the general minimum fare of £12 does not apply to certain ticket types such as ... Travelcards, £5.30.

If you mean by this that the £5.30 Y-P Railcard London Zones 1-6 Off-Peak One Day Travelcard may be used 0930-0959, then I didn't know that, ticket selling sites such as East Coast and TPE don't offer it, and the Minimum fares section of the Railcard Terms & Conditions is unhelpful, saying

For full details of minimum fares, please ask at your local staff [sic] station

Where is this documented?

 

[Urban Gateline]

If you mean by this that the £5.30 Y-P Railcard London Zones 1-6 Off-Peak One Day Travelcard may be used 0930-0959, then I didn't know that, ticket selling sites such as East Coast and TPE don't offer it, and the Minimum fares section of the Railcard Terms & Conditions is unhelpful, sayingWhere is this documented?

Please note that for travel at or before 10am Monday to friday (except during July and August) a £12 minimum fare will apply. Not every ticket type is available for every journey that you may wish to make, and some time and train restrictions and/or minimum fares may apply, as indicated. To avoid confusion, please check before booking.

So is it possible that this customer was trying to purchase the discounted Travelcard before 10am? As this is when the restrictions would be lifted on the TVM. If the Customer was trying to get a peak Travelcard discounted to £5.30 then obviously this won't work.

 

[RJ]

RJ, out of interest, when given the UPFN to sign, did you note down/mark it in anyway stating that you offered to pay £xx.xx but it was refused by the TM?

No. The signature is purely to verify that the name, address and journey details written down are correct. Writing anything else on it would merely invalidate it.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Condition 3 is not so helpful as it might be. By referring to a ticket (singular) it appears to rule out split ticketing options of the kind that RJ was proposing.

In my view, the ticket examiner should have sold RJ a priv to the first splitting point (this would presumably be an East Mids. Rover, I expect) but is not stricto senso under an obligation to sell a priv fare from the splitting point onwards. Although split tickets are clearly valid, in my view Condition 3 does not impose any kind of obligation on TEs to issue split tickets.

However, it seems that this whole saga has revealed a significant customer service issue in a company which in my experience is normally very good and so I would hope that senior management would want to look at it.

 

[bb21]

So is it possible that this customer was trying to purchase the discounted Travelcard before 10am? As this is when the restrictions would be lifted on the TVM. If the Customer was trying to get a peak Travelcard discounted to £5.30 then obviously this won't work.

This page says that the minimum fare for an Off-Peak Day Travelcard is £5.30 so the TVM was attempting to apply the £12 minimum fare, as per point-to-point tickets, at, what I believe to be, 0931.

 

[John @ home]

Yes, it was set up incorrectly, the general minimum fare of £12 does not apply to certain ticket types such as ... Travelcards, £5.30.

This page says that the minimum fare for an Off-Peak Day Travelcard is £5.30

Agreed. But the same page also says:

Please note that for travel at or before 10am Monday to friday (except during July and August) a £12 minimum fare will apply.

http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/tickets-travel-times

the TVM was attempting to apply the £12 minimum fare ... at, what I believe to be, 0931.

Agreed. But I have seen no evidence that this is incorrect.

 

[bb21]

Agreed. But I have seen no evidence that this is incorrect.

Yes, I agree that it comes down to whether the £12 minimum fare trumps the £5.30 minimum fare. There is nothing to suggest that it does.

As the discounted fare can be bought from both NR and LU ticket offices, which I have done several times, it would be absurd that a passenger travelling from an unmanned station is unfairly penalised.