5 car 144/155 combo?

[150222]

A train has gone over todmorden viaduct just now (0830) in the Manchester direction. It was a 155 and a 3 car 144. What service was it on and why was it formed of these units? Also would there be platform length issues?

 

[shedman]

The total length would be around about the same as a 4 car 15x (excluding a 150)

 

[northwichcat]

That service is now booked for a 3 car 144 + a 142 so I guess a 142 was unavailable and the 155 is filling in.

 

[Nym]

That service is now booked for a 3 car 144 + a 142 so I guess a 142 was unavailable and the 155 is filling in.

Consider it an upgrade...

 

[150222]

That service is now booked for a 3 car 144 + a 142 so I guess a 142 was unavailable and the 155 is filling in.

I assumed that was the case but i assumed there would be issues with platform length. Thanks for the replies btw.

 

[Nym]

Subbing a 155 in place of a 142 would be 16m longer... thats within the length of the rear carriage of the rear unit, so if the 144 is leading, it simply means locking the rear door of the 155 OOU and announcing it as such (and since the conductor is there anyway that isn't that much of an issue. On return it would be the whole rear carriage of the 144 over the end of the platform (this is asuming that the platform is exactly 77m (5 pacer carriages) long, in reality, most are capped at 80m or 92m (4 car C1 / C3) so again, it would only be the rear door of the rear unit overhanging, the conductor could simply only operate as the local door for opening and closing other doors and direct passengers to those if nessesarry.

It would be unlikely in them circumstances then that more than one door was outside of the platform, and that could be handled locally by the conductor when opening them, as it would always be at the rear of the diagram (where he/she usually is).

 

[150222]

Thank you for the information. Platforms on the caldervale can comfortably take a 4 car 158 (92m). I have worked out that a 144(3)/155 combo is 91m so no issues here. They could be better organised though as there is currently a single 142 on a via Bradford fast.

 

[tbtc]

They could be better organised though as there is currently a single 142 on a via Bradford fast.

The problem is that the diagrams mean a Bradford fast also does a Bradford slow and a long trip to/from Wakefield and Selby. So whilst 155s/158s are great on the Manchester services and Pacers are suited to the Wakefield/Selby bits, the interworking means that you do get unsuited units for a lot of the day.

 

[northernrailer]

One thing that always baffles me, where should the guard work from when you have 2 sets coupled together with no corridor connectors / no through access between sets. Is there a rule or union agreement that states where the guard should work from??

I have seen in Birmingham when conductors had 2x class 150/1 units they mostly seemed to work from one of the middle cabs. On other occasions around they worked from the rear set.

It seems to change all around the country, the other day i travelled from Leeds to Goole on a 153 & 150/2 and the guard closed off both cabs and work from the 150/2 with passengers in both units, but he had shut off access from one vehicle to the other. Then i have travelled on 2x 14x units and the guard has worked from the rear set & from the middle.

So is there a written rule stating where the guard should work from when they have 2 units with no through access or is it left up to the individual guards.

 

[150222]

The problem is that the diagrams mean a Bradford fast also does a Bradford slow and a long trip to/from Wakefield and Selby. So whilst 155s/158s are great on the Manchester services and Pacers are suited to the Wakefield/Selby bits, the interworking means that you do get unsuited units for a lot of the day.

My point is there are no 142's booked on via bradfords. The only 142 on the calder valley is the 142+144 combo (there may be a peak one to hudderfield). So it could have done the 142 diagram and the 155 could do it's diagram. I think this one (1248 ex man vic) should be a 150.

 

[tbtc]

My point is there are no 142's booked on via bradfords. The only 142 on the calder valley is the 142+144 combo (there may be a peak one to hudderfield). So it could have done the 142 diagram and the 155 could do it's diagram. I think this one (1248 ex man vic) should be a 150.

Thats a fair point, I was just mentioning that the muddled "Grand Tour" does put small DMUs on busy services and over-specced DMUs on quiet ones.

 

[150222]

One thing that always baffles me, where should the guard work from when you have 2 sets coupled together with no corridor connectors / no through access between sets. Is there a rule or union agreement that states where the guard should work from??

I have seen in Birmingham when conductors had 2x class 150/1 units they mostly seemed to work from one of the middle cabs. On other occasions around they worked from the rear set.

It seems to change all around the country, the other day i travelled from Leeds to Goole on a 153 & 150/2 and the guard closed off both cabs and work from the 150/2 with passengers in both units, but he had shut off access from one vehicle. Then i have travelled on 2x 14x units and the guard has worked from the rear set & from the middle.So is there a written rule stating where the guard should work from when they have 2 units with no through access.

I believe they should work from the front cab of the rear unit. Depends on the TOC i guess.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thats a fair point, I was just mentioning that the muddled "Grand Tour" does put small DMUs on busy services and over-specced DMUs on quiet ones.

Your quite correct. Often 3 car 158's turn up on wakefields and 2 car 150's on peak Manchester fasts. They should stop the interworking with 3 car 158's on fasts and 2 car 150/153/155/158's on slows.

 

[BestWestern]

One thing that always baffles me, where should the guard work from when you have 2 sets coupled together with no corridor connectors / no through access between sets. Is there a rule or union agreement that states where the guard should work from??

So is there a written rule stating where the guard should work from when they have 2 units with no through access or is it left up to the individual guards.

It's the Guard's choice, unless local instructions dictate otherwise. We can move from one unit to the other to conduct revenue if we so wish, and obviously in the case of short platforms and 'front door only' operation you'd need to be right at the front.

I tend to prefer to be in the rear unit simply because it means that both portions are staffed, though obviously the Driver in the front half will have little awareness of what's going on in there. But say for example a Pass-com gets pulled, it makes checking and resetting a lot easier and keeps the delay minutes down. It also gives a better view of the rear end of the train when checking platform positioning before releasing the doors.

Riding in the leading cab of the rear unit is an instruction which applies if the EBS (Emergency Bypass Switch) is operated, which removes the ability of the rear unit to automatically brake if it separates from the front. The emergency position on the brake handles in the non-leading cabs are also disabled, so the Guard must apply the handbrake if a separation were to occur (very unlikely).

 

[northwichcat]

So it could have done the 142 diagram and the 155 could do it's diagram.

That kind of thing seems to happen quite frequently with Northern Rail. I'm sure there are many reasons why two units could finish up the wrong way around.

 

[175001]

One thing that always baffles me, where should the guard work from when you have 2 sets coupled together with no corridor connectors / no through access between sets. Is there a rule or union agreement that states where the guard should work from??

I have seen in Birmingham when conductors had 2x class 150/1 units they mostly seemed to work from one of the middle cabs. On other occasions around they worked from the rear set.

It seems to change all around the country, the other day i travelled from Leeds to Goole on a 153 & 150/2 and the guard closed off both cabs and work from the 150/2 with passengers in both units, but he had shut off access from one vehicle to the other. Then i have travelled on 2x 14x units and the guard has worked from the rear set & from the middle.

So is there a written rule stating where the guard should work from when they have 2 units with no through access or is it left up to the individual guards.

At Northern, we now have to close the doors from the REAR of the train, except when on a curved platform where visibility is restricted. But we can open the doors from anywhere on the train though.

And we are NOT allowed to jump from set to set mid-journey. We are the competent person on that rear set, whilst it would be the driver in the front set.

 

[WatcherZero]

I must say every coupled set ive been on the conductor has operated from the rear cab, whether theyve done ticket checking or not usually depends on the train loading, quite often the trains so densely packed they can only walk between the rear doors and cab anyway. Was on a Man Airport service one mid-morning which was a coupled set (though late running due to children on the line) and it was so crammed with bikes and luggage that every time he wanted to come out of the cab there was a large shuffling of bags back and forth, worse was when there was a platform on the left as opposed to the right and vice versa and the bikes and bags had to be maneouvered through the passengers so that the door could open.

 

[newtownmgr]

On LM, conductors operate from which ever cab is convenient depending on stations. On 172's door controls are inoperative in the coupled cabs regardless of wether the interconnecting doors are open or not, controls in cab also inactive if unit coupled to 15x or 170.

Only restriction in place is for Colwall & Ledbury tunnels, conductor must be in rear most unit if thro' corridor connection is unavailable (i.e. 2 x 170).

 

[headshot119]

Do 172s have door controls at all the doors down the train, or just in the cabs?

 

[ValleyLines142]

With Arriva, a 4-car train might pull up, and the conductor would only allow pax to travel in the front 2 only.

 

[northwichcat]

With Arriva, a 4-car train might pull up, and the conductor would only allow pax to travel in the front 2 only.

That happens with Northern as well. The 09:17 Manchester-Chester and the approx 15:30 Buxton-Manchester operate like this on a daily basis.

 

[ValleyLines142]

That happens with Northern as well. The 09:17 Manchester-Chester and the approx 15:30 Buxton-Manchester operate like this on a daily basis.

The 1530 from Buxton is the Barrow service isn't it? (2C33 1522 possibly).

I see where they are coming from to take money.

Would it not be easier to have say a double-formed service stop at a platform with the rear doors of the front unit and the front doors of the rear unit on the platform so everyone can get off?

The 2255 Cardiff Central to Radyr via The City Line is formed of a 150 and 143 with the 143 on the rear locked out of use.

 

[northwichcat]

The 1530 from Buxton is the Barrow service isn't it? (2C33 1522 possibly).

I meant the 14:30 Buxton to Manchester which is booked for 156+150+150 but only the 156 is usually opened. That formation arrives at Piccadilly at around 15:30 and the 156+150 which is on the front of the 14:30 Buxton to Manchester sits at Piccadilly until working the 18:52 Piccadilly to Buxton, which is why I thought it was the 15:30 without checking I knew they sat there for a while but I didn't realise it was that long!

 

[Nym]

"Platform 9 for the service to Buxton. Please travel in the front train only for wherever"

 

[ValleyLines142]

I meant the 14:30 Buxton to Manchester which is booked for 156+150+150 but only the 156 is usually opened. That formation arrives at Piccadilly at around 15:30 and the 156+150 which is on the front of the 14:30 Buxton to Manchester sits at Piccadilly until working the 18:52 Piccadilly to Buxton, which is why I thought it was the 15:30 without checking I knew they sat there for a while but I didn't realise it was that long!

Ah yeah, I've seen that, the 1430 from Buxton.

Must admit we don't have services that long, even if they are ECS. In fact, apart from Valley Lines none of our trains around here are double-formed. Unless there's some late night/weekend services that are double-formed.

 

[Nym]

Would be nice to have a service that long on the Hazel Grove - Preston route, 150+150+150 would be very nice indeed....

 

[ValleyLines142]

You may see 150+150 on the Hazel Grove - Preston corridor, one less carriage admittedly than the 180s.

 

[Nym]

Doesn't sound bad when you say one carriage less, or 20 something seats less, when you say 35m less train (the equivilant of a whole pacer being chopped off the end, and some!) it sounds a lil bit worse...

Especially when you consider that 180s were leaving passengers behind some mornings at Salford Crescent and where rammed every morning from Bolton.

 

[ValleyLines142]

A 150 has about 135 seats, so double this would 270 for a 150+150.

A 180 has 287 seats.

A difference of 17 seats.

So, a 150+150 could be possible, which it probably already is.

If passengers were being left behind on 180s then I haven't got a clue what's going on. I don't know whether six cars can be formed.

 

[Nym]

Well, the DfT send Northern 7 150s to replace the 3 180s, so if you go by definate substitution, thats two diagrams of 3x150 and a maintenance spare. (Is what it said in the FoI request, don't bite my head off bout it!) But there is also the issue that off peak, a single 150 isn't enough, it needs an extra 1 carriage, it could do with some or all of the 150s being formed up into 3 car units, but that won't happen until more diesel becomes available.

 

[northwichcat]

A 150 has about 135 seats, so double this would 270 for a 150+150.

A 180 has 287 seats.

A difference of 17 seats.

So, a 150+150 could be possible, which it probably already is.

If passengers were being left behind on 180s then I haven't got a clue what's going on. I don't know whether six cars can be formed.

The Northern 150s have 5 different seating arrangements:

1. ex-FNW 150s with accessible toilet layout 1 (124 seats - lowest number)
2. ex-FNW 150s with accessible toilet layout 2
3. ex-LM 150/1s
4. ex-LM 150/2s (149 seats - highest number)
5. ex-ATN 150/2s - same as LM 150/2s but with 4 seats removed for wheelchair space.

The 150s are in a common pool so any 2 of the above could form a Hazel Grove-Preston service. The key difference though is a lot less standing space on 2x150s and the 150s having 3+2 seating making it:
a) impossible for 3 large people to sit in 3 seats next to each other
b) harder to spot empty seats

Also with the 150 seating being older (except in the case of the ex-FNW 150s) there is more chance of a seat being broken and with Northern a broken seat is sometimes removed and not replaced.

Well, the DfT send Northern 7 150s to replace the 3 180s, so if you go by definate substitution, thats two diagrams of 3x150 and a maintenance spare.

It was 12 carriages they sent Northern. With the 180s Northern had up to 10 carriages in service at once and a maintenance spare, which is where 12 came from.

However, had the LO 172s been delivered earlier Northern would have taken on the 8 x LO 150s in time for the Dec 08 timetable change, so really DfT saying 8 x 150 carriages for extra capacity (in addition to the 12 x 150 carriages for 180 replacement and 8 x 150 carriages as 156 replacement) is what Northern should have got in the first place.

So in reality the first 150 cascade announcement only gave Northern what they should have already had in 2008.