And the Chaos is underway!

[tgsh2011]

So the 'little' storm in London and SE has commenced. Right now I'm on the train from East Grinstead to Victoria. Train 'stranded' near Purley due to a fallen tree!

Apparently it is due to get much worse overnight!

 

[RichmondCommu]

At least in our neck of the woods we don't have OLE. Mercifully at the moment we seem to be a enjoying a relatively mild winter. At least up until now......

 

[ushawk]

The Redhill to Tonbridge line is also closed due to a fallen tree at Nutfield.

Im guessing your on the 22.07 East Grinstead - Victoria - showing on NRE as leaving Riddlesdown 26 down, the 21.49 Uckfield - London Bridge was delayed into LBG due to to an obstruction on the line at Riddlesdown too - so it seems the problems are there.

A Tree has also fallen at Brockenhurst, delaying trains between Southampton and Bournemouth and theres Overhead Wire Problems between Rugby and Milton Keynes which might also be weather related.

 

[OxtedL]

So the 'little' storm in London and SE has commenced. Right now I'm on the train from East Grinstead to Victoria. Train 'stranded' near Purley due to a fallen tree!

Apparently it is due to get much worse overnight!

Nasty. The wind is really bad here tonight, I somehow don't think it'll be the only thing on the line by morning. Hope you get home all right.

 

[RichmondCommu]

What I don't understand is if there are vulnerable trees close to the line side why they are not cut down? I know that sounds a little harsh but try telling that to passengers stuck on that train.

 

[Donny Dave]

Because a lot of the time, they are not on Network Rail land ....

In such cases, NR have to co-operate with the land owner to get the trees and adjoining land maintained to an acceptable standard, or if the tree is in bad enough condition, get a court order for it's removal ....

 

[ushawk]

To cut trees down that have a possibility of falling down would mean cutting a lot of trees, including those not directly next to the line. That and theres only a few days of strong wind a year (theres the leaves on the line arguement too).

 

[142094]

What I don't understand is if there are vulnerable trees close to the line side why they are not cut down? I know that sounds a little harsh but try telling that to passengers stuck on that train.

In many cases the tree might look in good condition from the outside, but rotten through on the inside. Also, you can't easily tell how far the roots go down, and poor root penetration is one of the common reasons trees get blown over in high winds.

 

[ushawk]

Obstruction on the line now being reported in the Balcombe area, was also one there last Thursday.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I stand to be corrected but is it not right that cutting trees down increases the risk of subsidence?

 

[tsr]

I'm wondering if there's an extra speed restriction somewhere as various BML departure boards are showing quite a few Southern, FGW and FCC services down by 10-15 minutes (where they are not being delayed or cancelled due to obstructions). Either that or congestion...

It's pretty gusty in Redhill tonight and it could get worse, I'm sure, looking at multiple charts. Weather reports are conflicting but a figure of around 50-60mph for wind gusts and 20-30mph for wind speed overall are the averages.

If they can clear everything up by 11am tomorrow, I'll be happy...

 

[142094]

I stand to be corrected but is it not right that cutting trees down increases the risk of subsidence?

Last time we were talking about this we didn't get to a conclusive answer, as there are so many factors involved, such as tree species and soil type. IMO they do provide some sort of anchorage, and also intercept rain which may otherwise erode bare surfaces. However some others have pointed out that it encourages burrowing animals.

On railways in cuttings, I'd say trees do hold the banks together as the roots will have to go deeper to access ground water, which should be at a lower level compared to the rails (otheriwse the line would be constantly flooded).

 

[tsr]

I stand to be corrected but is it not right that cutting trees down increases the risk of subsidence?

This is correct for many soil types, particularly less compact ones, of course.

 

[RichmondCommu]

In many cases the tree might look in good condition from the outside, but rotten through on the inside. Also, you can't easily tell how far the roots go down, and poor root penetration is one of the common reasons trees get blown over in high winds.

Fair enough, thats what I love about this forum; something new every day! Its a pity that with modern advances in science we don't have a better understanding of the condition of trees.

 

[142094]

Fair enough, thats what I love about this forum; something new every day! Its a pity that with modern advances in science we don't have a better understanding of the condition of trees.

One of my friends was formerly a tree surgeon (now a grounds keeper for a Premiership football team!).

IIRC all trees have to be inspected on a regular basis, where they are 'owned' by a council or whatever. Less emphasis on private land, where most people will only take action if the tree is obviously about to fall down.

Of course with nature you need to expect the unexpected. There was a inquest last week into how a young girl died when a tree trunk fell onto her, caused by a phenomenon known as 'summer exploding' - the trunk exploded and couldn't have been predicted. Unfortunately she happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[OxtedL]

Im guessing your on the 22.07 East Grinstead - Victoria - showing on NRE as leaving Riddlesdown 26 down, the 21.49 Uckfield - London Bridge was delayed into LBG due to to an obstruction on the line at Riddlesdown too - so it seems the problems are there.

The return Uckfield had a knock on delay, but now seems stuck at Upper Warlingham on NRE.

I may be walking tomorrow...

 

[RichmondCommu]

One of my friends was formerly a tree surgeon (now a grounds keeper for a Premiership football team!).

IIRC all trees have to be inspected on a regular basis, where they are 'owned' by a council or whatever. Less emphasis on private land, where most people will only take action if the tree is obviously about to fall down.

Of course with nature you need to expect the unexpected. There was a inquest last week into how a young girl died when a tree trunk fell onto her, caused by a phenomenon known as 'summer exploding' - the trunk exploded and couldn't have been predicted. Unfortunately she happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Good grief, what kind of odds would you have had on that happening? Even more tragic that it involved a young girl with her whole life ahead of her.

Do the regular inspections stretch to Network Rail property? One would have assumed so as Network Rail is a state owned company.

 

[tsr]

Just heard a pretty loud couple of train whistles here in Redhill... I wonder if there's some sort of obstruction on the line at Redhill station. I know there's a tree on the line at Nutfield. The wind gusts are now more frequent and there are trees all over the roads according to the BBC.

Oh well... storms happen. So long as nobody is killed or injured, it can be repaired.

As for the tree debate... I have done a reasonable amount of garden clearance for friends and family, and many trees you think are OK will actually turn out to be rotten. As for embankments being held up by trees, I have worked in one of Reigate's steepest gardens and indeed this is the case, for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[142094]

Good grief, what kind of odds would you have had on that happening? Even more tragic that it involved a young girl with her whole life ahead of her.

Do the regular inspections stretch to Network Rail property? One would have assumed so as Network Rail is a state owned company.

I would expect that there is some sort of inspection (such as when engineers go out checking bridges and other infrastructure). Some of it might be done by helicopter in the summer - easy to spot a dead tree which has no leaves. Network Rail also periodically go along a remove overhanging branches, so could be done then.

However I wouldn't like to think how many trees there are near railway lines, so bound to be a few that fall through the gaps. A few years ago a tree fell down right next to Wylam signal box on the Tyne Valley line - probably the one place you'd have expected a decaying tree to be spotted.

 

[pendolino]

There was a inquest last week into how a young girl died when a tree trunk fell onto her, caused by a phenomenon known as 'summer exploding' - the trunk exploded and couldn't have been predicted. Unfortunately she happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That's hyperbole - trees don't explode (unless they come into contact with overhead powerlines). There is a phenomenon called 'summer drop' which is not entirely understood, but affects certain species, particularly Horse Chestnut, whereby limbs can be shed unexpectedly, but it's not like the tree 'explodes'.

 

[tsr]

That's hyperbole - trees don't explode (unless they come into contact with overhead powerlines). There is a phenomenon called 'summer drop' which is not entirely understood, but affects certain species, particularly Horse Chestnut, whereby limbs can be shed unexpectedly, but it's not like the tree 'explodes'.

I wonder if it's something to do with resin - certainly, resin explodes in heat, but not in the UK, as far as I know, so this is not the phenomenon I'm thinking of.

 

[pendolino]

Its a pity that with modern advances in science we don't have a better understanding of the condition of trees.

We do have a good understanding, what with VTA, PICUS, Resistographs, Increment borers, Fractometers etc etc. But there will always be unpredictable failure - particularly where the causal fungal species results in a brittle fracture which doesn't cause obvious adaptive/reactive growth, Kretzschmaria deusta being the obvious one.

 

[142094]

Should have said 'summer drop', but in this article there is a quote from a tree consultant which says:

It happens when a sudden downpour follows a long dry period and water being sucked through the tree causes the brittle branches to literally explode"

Article is here.

 

[pendolino]

I wonder if it's something to do with resin - certainly, resin explodes in heat, but not in the UK, as far as I know, so this is not the phenomenon I'm thinking of.

It's nothing to do with explosions, nor resin (broadleaves such as Hippocastanum don't produce resins for one thing). It may be something to do with cellular turgor pressure during drought.

 

[tsr]

It's nothing to do with explosions, nor resin (broadleaves such as Hippocastanum don't produce resins for one thing). It may be something to do with cellular turgor pressure during drought.

I wasn't really suggesting they exploded, but that's a useful reply you've posted there, nonetheless. Thanks.

 

[Ibex]

Not sure if it's weather related like the previous mentioned incidents but VT's 1H75 20:40 Euston to Manchester Piccadilly has been a stand near Weedon (between MK and Rugby) since about 21:15 this evening after losing it's pantograph.

 

[tgsh2011]

Well I got home fine. I was not too delayed in the end. The driver apparently got out of the cab and moved the tree! How does that work? Considering this part of the world is 3rd rail land? I'm due on VT to Manchester Piccadilly tomorrow so I wonder what the morning will bring

 

[pendolino]

Should have said 'summer drop', but in this article there is a quote from a tree consultant which says:



Article is here.

Crikey. I used to work with the 'consultant' named in that report (I think he got sacked from the company we both worked for in the end). His knowledge (at the time) of tree hazard assessment was patchy to say the least.

 

[tsr]

Not sure if it's weather related like the previous mentioned incidents but VT's 1H75 20:40 Euston to Manchester Piccadilly has been a stand near Weedon (between MK and Rugby) since about 21:15 this evening after losing it's pantograph.

Someone mentioned this more vaguely earlier on in the thread (EDIT: They didn't! I'm getting confused with NRE). If my family's metal-cored washing line is anything to go by, then yes, the wind is certainly up to causing OHLE/pantograph problems!

On a more serious note, I don't judge the potential of wind to cause havoc merely by observing washing lines' movement.

 

[pendolino]

Do the regular inspections stretch to Network Rail property? One would have assumed so as Network Rail is a state owned company.

NR, as far as I'm aware, still carry out regular hazard inspections of trees on their properties but have no powers to inspect trees on adjacent private land - this was the main issue resulting from the Lavington accident where an HST hit a decayed tree that had fallen from adjacent privately-owned land.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2011/report082011.cfm