Headwinds on a Flight

[WestCoast]

True but when you then compare the fact that after the 1998 Paris aircrash, both the FDR and the CVR were removed from the site by Airbus and were switched with different ones, and the original ones were subsequently opened and parts of the tape removed, and then look at the continuing issues with the flight management system which Airbus/Air France have been very reluctant to admit to.

A similar incident to that of AF447 occurred on the same route in the ITCZ earlier this year, but instead of the a/c being taken out of use, it was sent to Africa on a series of operations by which time the critical data could not be recovered. The incident was also not reported and did not come to light until someone leaked out the information.

I do have to wonder why these incidents keep occuring with Air France but not with other very large Airbus customers such as US Airways, Lufthansa or Emirates?

 

[Old Timer]

Off topic question: If you paid the extra for economy plus/premium economy what would you do or what would your reaction be if the people behind you told you not put your seat all the way back?

To be perfectly honest I have never experienced this so far. Most people, myself included accept that the seat in front can be let back and we accept that.

As long as you are operating the seat as intended then there is nothing to stop you doing so, so it would be one for the flight attendant to sort out.

I have experienced the opposite situation to that however. Once when travelling inbound to AMS, I got chatting with the flight attendants whilst we waited at the gate, and in conversation it came out that my my lady travelling companion had a bad headcold and sore throat. On this occasion we were not in economy comfort but during the early stages of the flight the attendant did stop at the row in front and politely ask them if they would leave their seat upright, without mentioning any reason.

What I remember on that flight particularly was the constant attention she received with regards to drinks, etc, and a fulsome apology that they could not upgrade because business was full on the flight, and there were no spare rows either in which she could spread out a bit.

Its small little insignificant things like this, and the willingness to go that little bit extra at times, which in my opinion does tend to generate a lot of goodwill and loyalty from passengers.

They certainly get all my business whenever I can.
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I do have to wonder why these incidents keep occuring with Air France but not with other very large Airbus customers such as US Airways, Lufthansa or Emirates?

Different safety cultures, old chap.

 

[Butts]

Most of my flights are domestic with Flybe.

No Boeings or Airbus.

Brazilian, I believe Embraer 195. or if you are really unlucky one of those crap Canadian Bombardier Q400's which may be more environmentally sound but are cramped and take an eternity to get between Edinburgh and Birmingham.(ok I exagerate but 15 mins is the equivalent of an hour on a train)

 

[WestCoast]

if you are really unlucky one of those crap Canadian Bombardier Q400's which may be more environmentally sound but are cramped and take an eternity to get between Edinburgh and Birmingham.(ok I exagerate but 15 mins is the equivalent of an hour on a train)

They're not crap at all. They make certain routes viable. If you think they're cramped you've obviously never been on a Fairchild Metroliner or a Saab 340, which both operate to the Isle of Man! Compared to earlier turboprops the Q400s are a dream...

Plus, the experience is more like 'real flying'.

 

[Butts]

They're not crap at all. They make certain routes viable. If you think they're cramped you've obviously never been on a Fairchild Metroliner or a Saab 340, which both operate to the Isle of Man! Compared to earlier turboprops the Q400s are a dream...

Plus, the experience is more like 'real flying'.

I've been on a "Flying Cigar" from Jersey to Guernsey a while back not sure what the make is.

On reflection you are correct about the Q400 but it should be kept on the short runs and the Jets on EDI-BHX. Probably the scheduling prevents this.

 

[WestCoast]

I've been on a "Flying Cigar" from Jersey to Guernsey a while back not sure what the make is.

A Britten-Norman Trislander by any chance?

On reflection you are correct about the Q400 but it should be kept on the short runs and the Jets on EDI-BHX. Probably the scheduling prevents this.

What sort of routes were you thinking, EDI-BHX seems like quite a short route to me in airline terms?

Air Baltic put Q400s on Brussels-Riga which is about a 2h20mins flight!

With the fuel prices going up and up and up, I expect to see ever more ATR-72s and Bombardier Q400s on shorter routes! Those two are the only modern commercial turboprops currently in production that mainstream airlines would consider. In fact, ATR has had a bumper year in terms of orders.....

Welcome to the turboprop age (again)............

 

[table38]

I've been on a "Flying Cigar" from Jersey to Guernsey a while back not sure what the make is.

Was it one of those 3-seater Trislander thingmys where they prop the back end up to stop it tipping over when you get on?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7663959@N02/5051204833/

 

[Butts]

A Britten-Norman Trislander by any chance?



What sort of routes were you thinking, EDI-BHX seems like quite a short route to me in airline terms?

Air Baltic put Q400s on Brussels-Riga which is about a 2h20mins flight!

With the fuel prices going up and up and up, I expect to see ever more ATR-72s and Bombardier Q400s on shorter routes! Those two are the only modern commercial turboprops currently in production that mainstream airlines would consider. In fact, ATR has had a bumper year in terms of orders.....

Welcome to the turboprop age (again)............

Yes that looks a bit like it from memory.....ta

I admit I am being selfish with wanting Embraers on Edinburgh to Birmingham for the time and comfort. I suppose it would be a bit like getting on a Train from Edinburgh to Birmingham that was supposed to be a Voyager/Pendelino and turned out to be one of those chuggers Northern Rail operate between Preston and Liverpool.

The smallest plane I have ever been in is a 2 Seater Chipmunk for Air Experience Flying when I was in the Air cadets 30 odd years ago.
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Was it one of those 3-seater Trislander thingmys where they prop the back end up to stop it tipping over when you get on?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7663959@N02/5051204833/

As already picked up I believe so - why have they got three props ?

 

[WestCoast]

Yes that looks a bit like it from memory.....ta

I admit I am being selfish with wanting Embraers on Edinburgh to Birmingham for the time and comfort. I suppose it would be a bit like getting on a Train from Edinburgh to Birmingham that was supposed to be a Voyager/Pendelino and turned out to be one of those chuggers Northern Rail operate between Preston and Liverpool.

Yeah, the 'chuggers' I commute on!

Have you ever been on an Embraer 145/135? Bmi Regional operate them - small cabin, but they are fast!

 

[Butts]

Yeah, the 'chuggers' I commute on!

Have you ever been on an Embraer 145/135? Bmi Regional operate them - small cabin, but they are fast!

Yes I believe BA used to use them on Edi-Bhx before they bailed out and let Flybe take over - they then seemed to vanish - perhaps they were rebadged and flogged to BMI.

They could well be going full circle as it looks like BA are favourites to purchase the ailing BMI.

The faster the better as far as I'm concerned....theres no better announcement than flying time will be 45 mins to Birmingham tonight.

 

[WestCoast]

They could well be going full circle as it looks like BA are favourites to purchase the ailing BMI.

BA won't go back into the regional business. The regional part of bmi was originally Aberdeen-based Business Air and it will most likely be sold to the guys who managed that airline originally.

Flybe sold them (to bmi and others, although some are still in storage in Exeter or were until recently) as they found the Q400s to be cheaper to operate.

 

[Butts]

BA won't go back into the regional business. The regional part of bmi was originally Aberdeen-based Business Air and it will most likely be sold to the guys who managed that airline originally.

Believe me they are sadly missed - since Flybe and initially BMI Baby as well took on the EDI-BHX route fares are now higher than they were when BA were operating it and the service much diminished.

It was "slowly slowly catchee monkey" (are you still allowed to say that ?)

BA still fly from Aberdeen Edinburgh and Glasgow !!!

 

[WestCoast]

BA still fly from Aberdeen Edinburgh and Glasgow !!!

Yeah but mainline BA to Heathrow or CityFlyer to London City though, where the flights to Heathrow have many connecting passengers with business traffic mainly on the latter London City service

They don't have regional hubs outside London now, like they did with BA Connect and Citiexpress. They are London Airways - all schedules flights to/from London Heathrow, Gatwick or City.

 

[Butts]

Yeah but mainline BA to Heathrow or CityFlyer to London City though, where the flights to Heathrow have many connecting passengers with business traffic mainly on the latter London City service

They don't have regional hubs outside London now, like they did with BA Connect and Citiexpress. They are London Airways - all schedules flights to/from London Heathrow, Gatwick or City.

London City is a great airport to land at from Edinburgh (or anywhere else) as you are already in town. Having said that it is a bit cramped airside. It's a great view landing in daylight.

Before BA Connect that ill fated budget impersonator they did have proper hubs in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As already picked up I believe so - why have they got three props ?

Bigger than the Islander they are based on so needed a third engine. They went for three of the same type as the Islander rather than two bigger engines so that they could keep as much part standardisation as possible.

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes, absolutely agree. I really do not like the Airbus system where in effect the pilots now only monitor the computers. The flying controls are only designed to let the pilot fly the plane straight and level in order to reset the computers, and even that is a recent modification following AF447. The system will NOT let a pilot fly the a/c outside of what the computer believes are the safe parameters. The a/c was never designed to be flown by hand whereas the Boeing series retain the direct FBW controls which can over-ride the FMC, and which itself can be shut down by switch much quicker.

It's an interesting one. Statistically, Airbus are safer until you regress the figures to when they had a comparable number of deliveries. Then they're neck and neck.

I spent 3 hours on Friday reading the report, and the accompanying report by a US airline instructor (I can't remember which airline he was from) where he accounted for why the pilots acted as they did. It's an interesting read if you haven't yet read that.

The whole AF447 to me is just too convenient. The chances involved were slim and admittedly it could have just been that chance, but what swings it for me was the presence of some Chinese mining officials due to give evidence in Paris the next day as part of a massive anti-corruption trial. I know it seems like a far fetched conspiracy, but when you consider the scale of it (Goldman Sachs, the new ECB chair Draghi, several Nikkei listed Co) it seems more and more possible.

I'm no big fan of conspiracy don't get me wrong, but when China is heavily involved I tend to stop and think twice now.

 

[Old Timer]

..The whole AF447 to me is just too convenient. The chances involved were slim and admittedly it could have just been that chance, but what swings it for me was the presence of some Chinese mining officials due to give evidence in Paris the next day as part of a massive anti-corruption trial. I know it seems like a far fetched conspiracy, but when you consider the scale of it (Goldman Sachs, the new ECB chair Draghi, several Nikkei listed Co) it seems more and more possible.

I'm no big fan of conspiracy don't get me wrong, but when China is heavily involved I tend to stop and think twice now.

Personally I do not think that the Chinese had anything to do with it, assuming of course that AF were up to their old tricks of declaring Marseilles so as to get around the all up maximum take off weight. This falls neatly in line with the crew then flying directly through the ATCZ, even though practically every other airline would fly around it. Had they done this then they would have had to declare a fuel emergency somewhere over Spain.

Take then the fact that the icing of the pitot tubes screwed up the computer input, the fact that there are emerging to be big holes in the flight deck crew training, poor CRM (which is related to the French "control and command" culture), the inexplicable failure of the Pilot to leave the most inexperienced FO as Pilot In Command, and you have all the necessary dominoes all lined up.

The final piece of the jigsaw (and apologies for mixing metaphors) was the storm.

What you had therefore in effect was the disaster simply ready and waiting and on this occasion all the pieces came together and its good night Vienna.

I didn't know the bit about the Chinese and whilst I do not believe a word the French say about anything and I would never trust them under any circumstances, it would been very propitious for all the factors to have come together - unless someone took an enormous gamble and filled the a/c to within 250kg of its AUW capacity and it came off.

 

[Pumbaa]

Take then the fact that the icing of the pitot tubes screwed up the computer input, the fact that there are emerging to be big holes in the flight deck crew training, poor CRM (which is related to the French "control and command" culture), the inexplicable failure of the Pilot to leave the most inexperienced FO as Pilot In Command, and you have all the necessary dominoes all lined up.

The final piece of the jigsaw (and apologies for mixing metaphors) was the storm.

What you had therefore in effect was the disaster simply ready and waiting and on this occasion all the pieces came together and its good night Vienna.

Yes - the jist of the pilot psychology report was that the Rubin? left in command was the single biggest error. Had the captain or the more experienced first officer been in command they (they surmise) would have thought twice and taken a different course of action. But who knows now.

So yes from that AF poor crew training and lack of established command and control produced that factor. Shame.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes - the jist of the pilot psychology report was that the Rubin? left in command was the single biggest error. Had the captain or the more experienced first officer been in command they (they surmise) would have thought twice and taken a different course of action. But who knows now.

So yes from that AF poor crew training and lack of established command and control produced that factor. Shame.

Have you seen the CVR transcript of the final minutes leading up to the crash into the Atlantic ?

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes, and the annotated version of the transcript in the supporting report. Bonin - that was his name. Apparently no training on the use of outside normal law of operation.