Pendolino could take part in clearance trials on ECML

[northwichcat]

http://www.rail.co/2011/12/09/pendolino-on-east-coast-main-line-2/

 

[swt_passenger]

http://www.rail.co/2011/12/09/pendolino-on-east-coast-main-line-2/

That article does not mention '140 mph clearance trials on ECML' - so your title is not justified. (It was subseqently amended - thanks.)

 

[HSTEd]

This won't happen unless TASS/ERTMS beacons start appearing on the ECML so yeah, there wont be 140mph clearance trials because 390s turn up, since there is already 140mph capable stock there.

 

[Chris125]

While we all know how unpopular the bi-mode IEP is, this is a real slap in the face for the electric version - and from a government owned franchise too!

Chris

 

[Aictos]

This won't happen unless TASS/ERTMS beacons start appearing on the ECML so yeah, there wont be 140mph clearance trials because 390s turn up, since there is already 140mph capable stock there.

There isn't any 140mph rolling stock on the East Coast Mainline though, the 91s and Mk4s are no longer 140mph capable as work has been done which prevents this hence why they are currently only cleared to work to 125mph.

And as much as I like to be involved in some point with any trials of having 390s on the East Coast, I sooner prefer Siemens to be involved and have 10 coach ICE T's replace 91s and Mk4s with 10 coach ICE TD's replacing HSTs.

The ICE T's being upgraded to work off the UK OHLE.

 

[Yew]

When did ec express and intrest in multiple units to replace 225's.? I would say IF ec got pebdolinos, they would be used alongside 225's for the stoppers

 

[YorkshireBear]

Everyday more things appear that seem to suggest bi mode IEP isnt going to go happen or maybe even IEP altogether.

 

[ainsworth74]

When did ec express and intrest in multiple units to replace 225's.?

A few months ago I seem to recall that EC stated that as a result of the falling performance of the IC225s they were looking at all the options for dealing with this, including the procurement of replacement trains (which would presumably be EMUs) if it was not possible to enhance the reliability of the IC225s (and of course if it could be funded).

 

[route:oxford]

Let's have an electric 180 equivalent for the GWML.

 

[jopsuk]

With Transport Scotland looking at curtailing cross-border services at Edinburgh (silly idea, but there you go) and there now even being a possibility of Hull getting wires maybe sort of, that would leave the entire EC franchise area electric. Getting the Class 390 cleared on the route would be a lot less work than introducing a whole new class.
Though like other posters, I'd prefer to see something else used.

 

[Bridge189]

There isn't any 140mph rolling stock on the East Coast Mainline though, the 91s and Mk4s are no longer 140mph capable as work has been done which prevents this hence why they are currently only cleared to work to 125mph.

And as much as I like to be involved in some point with any trials of having 390s on the East Coast, I sooner prefer Siemens to be involved and have 10 coach ICE T's replace 91s and Mk4s with 10 coach ICE TD's replacing HSTs.

The ICE T's being upgraded to work off the UK OHLE.

The 225s are still 140 cleared. Not sure how this rumour of "work was done to prevent it" came about. Even the silver repaints still have "max speed 140" on them.

 

[Old Timer]

With Transport Scotland looking at curtailing cross-border services at Edinburgh (silly idea, but there you go).....

Ah maybe Scottish Independence IS going ahead then after all

 

[O L Leigh]

The ICE T's being downgraded to work off the UK OHLE.

Corrected that for you.

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

How about an intercity-ised version of a 395, rather than the somewhat different unit that Hitachi seem to be proposing?

http://absolutproof.com/pictures/Class_396-GBR.png

 

[Pumbaa]

There isn't any 140mph rolling stock on the East Coast Mainline though, the 91s and Mk4s are no longer 140mph capable as work has been done which prevents this hence why they are currently only cleared to work to 125mph.

The 225s are still 140 cleared. Not sure how this rumour of "work was done to prevent it" came about. Even the silver repaints still have "max speed 140" on them.

91s are, Mk4s aren't. The bogies had a component removed or permanently fixed into place that allowed the tilt and was necessary for 125mph+ running during overhaul. I suspect that the bogies are still good to be cleared for 125+, but as there is no need to be they just haven't bothered officially doing it.

 

[Yew]

Mk4s never tilted..

 

[Pumbaa]

Mk4s never tilted..

They were designed to.

 

[Yew]

Yes they where, as they are derived from the apt coaching stock. However mk4's never had any tilt mechanisms fitted. I fear you might be getting confused with xc's voyagers, of which some tilted and some didn't, so they welded the tilting ones up at 0 degrees, and took the tilt mechanisms out to save on maintainance, as most of their routes where not tass enabled so it was just something to go wrong.

 

[ukrob]

There is no confusion. Pumbaa is correct - and voyager modifications are irrelevant (but you are right with what you say).

 

[HSTEd]

Yes they where, as they are derived from the apt coaching stock. However mk4's never had any tilt mechanisms fitted. I fear you might be getting confused with xc's voyagers, of which some tilted and some didn't, so they welded the tilting ones up at 0 degrees, and took the tilt mechanisms out to save on maintainance, as most of their routes where not tass enabled so it was just something to go wrong.

Not having tilt equipment doesn't neccesarily prevent them from attaining 140mph, as they achieved 140mph on Stoke Bank during testing without said equipment.

 

[Woody]

These interesting comments on the matter from Tony Miles on the Google uk rail forum (Dec 10 10.41pm) https://groups.google.com/group/uk....read/3bd8416456b134c9/1e3652b0f7cc28d1?hl=en&

 

[Blindtraveler]

pendies on ECML Sounds good to me. Thi would dont forget be a newbuild and unless the virgin group got EC before the order was placed than an interior re-speck could well happen.
If cross border work continues, drags could happen with maybe a small number of new locos which could also haul sleapers if needed. doing this now i.e in the next cupple of years puts in my mind IEP in a bit of danger all together but lets not debate that again!

 

[Aictos]

Corrected that for you.

O L Leigh

Doh, I walked straight into that didn't I?

 

[junglejames]

How about an intercity-ised version of a 395, rather than the somewhat different unit that Hitachi seem to be proposing?

http://absolutproof.com/pictures/Class_396-GBR.png

From someone who isnt exactly fond on pendys, the 395s arent a patch on the 390s. Put a non tilt profiled body on 390 type unit, and they beat 395s hands down, feet down, head down....

Sorry but the 395s are pretty bad. At speed they are noisy. They shake. Crikey, I thought the old slammers shook you about a bit. Then I met the 395s!!
Not impressed with Hitachi's offerings at all.

 

[fgwrich]

From someone who isnt exactly fond on pendys, the 395s arent a patch on the 390s. Put a non tilt profiled body on 390 type unit, and they beat 395s hands down, feet down, head down....

Sorry but the 395s are pretty bad. At speed they are noisy. They shake. Crikey, I thought the old slammers shook you about a bit. Then I met the 395s!!
Not impressed with Hitachi's offerings at all.

RE The 395s - Completely agree with you there JungleJames! Twice ive been on the Javelins, and twice they've shaked at high speed - Heck, even creeping into Bombardier teritory with some vibrating rattling panels! (Especially on the cheap and tacky Mock Steel plastic covering over the LED Window destination screen! If Siemens can make theirs out of metal, and Alstom fit the next station details into the sides of their Pendolinos, Why can't Hitachi?!) As for the constant high speed shaking, this is still happening after the fitting of a new dampner design...designed to heavily reduce the shaking from new!

As for my thaughts on the Pendolino design - It's a good unit, reliable, comfortable and pretty fast...theres little denying that...on a personal note - It's the way the interior has been designed which lets it down...As for East Coast taking on a fleet of 390s - Go for it (with a modified interior!), and the process continue to kill off IEP please!

And for those of you who haven't seen Tony Miles's post on the google forums, here it is:

Not anything to do with Virgin...

Both FGW and East Coast have told the DfT that the Pendolino would be
ideal for those two main lines.


And - just to calm the anti-390 brigade - it isn't "the exact design"
that is the train type in question. It is the concept of the train in
terms of the distributed power, technical specs etc. and the way
Virgin work with Alstom that is being highlighted. In Italy last week
Alstom hosted Virgin and new Italian private operator NTV to talk
about their operations. Virgin explained how good the Alstom operation
is in terms of maintaining the trains and getting so many sets in
service every day. NTV said that their new AGV.italo fleet will be
maintained by Alstom in exactly the same way and Alstom said that
every enquiry they get about new train orders comes with "take us to
Longsight to show us how you do the job there."
As Jon has pointed out - a Pendolino-type train on a similar contract
to the Alstom one with Virgin would come it at about £20,000 per
vehicle per month cheaper... work that out for 20 years and you soon
find the money to electrify to Swansea etc.
Alstom has also produced a design for a "simplified" Pendolino without
the front hatches and permanently accessible couplers. These could
couple to an Alstom diesel loco in a minute or two - and be ready to
move off "because the trains and locos would be designed to do this
from the start..."


Everyone - even people in the DfT are actually saying the £20k a month
is "a low estimate" and confirm that IEP is still only backed by one
(we know who) civil servant - who, somehow, still seems to have
convinced ministers its a good idea.


Finally - as has been mentioned - nobody wants to actually finance the
IEP anyway. We know the DfT has now approached at least two of the
ROSCOs begging them to take on the financing - both have told the DfT
where to stick the idea. (and if the experienced ROSCOs don't think
there is any money to be made will an inexperienced bank find the
money? - especially now they know that the existing ROSCOs aren't
interested?)

 

[Blindtraveler]

like and agree with your 390 thoughts fgwrich but should maybe warn you that the first time you experience siemens latest innivation, the class 380s in Scotland youl know what a rattling pannel is. Less than a year old and already groaning creaking and rattling like mad! have never had a shaky 395 and am rather fond of them, so much so some more HS1 bashing is needed

 

[junglejames]

like and agree with your 390 thoughts fgwrich but should maybe warn you that the first time you experience siemens latest innivation, the class 380s in Scotland youl know what a rattling pannel is. Less than a year old and already groaning creaking and rattling like mad! have never had a shaky 395 and am rather fond of them, so much so some more HS1 bashing is needed

Not wanting to diminish your observations, but every time ive had the misfortune of travelling on a 395 (which is frequently) they have been noisy and shaky. You dont hear too many rattling panels, but the whole body shakes.
You all know the thudding sensation you get on Mk3s as well, when passing another train at speed? Ive noticed that to an extent on 395s as well. Mainly because of the doors moving about. The doors are a very poor design for high speed trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

RE The 395s - Completely agree with you there JungleJames! Twice ive been on the Javelins, and twice they've shaked at high speed - Heck, even creeping into Bombardier teritory with some vibrating rattling panels!

To be fair to Bombardier and Derby. Ive never had much of a problem with their EMUs. The odd one or two have loose panels. But ive never noticed it to be an ongoing problem.
The 375s and 377s are quite pleasant units all round. Much better than a 395 in my opinion.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If what you quote is true fgwrich then i will be so happy

 

[dave59]

390's or variants? No thanks. If they are heavily modified yes, but they need at least voyager or mk4 size windows. Look at Rory Bremner's advert for EC and imagine trying that from a pokey 390.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oER90IKiFmc

I would prefer the totally new design of the Hitachi IEP. As others have said where the EC routes are concerned (Yorks electrification and axing of North Scotland through routes) there could well no longer be a case for the bi-mode which of course is good news meaning diesel traction can, over 20 years after electrification, be finally axed from the route.

But will 225 reliability stand up to the endless delays and indecision on the part of the DfT and their IEP? Probably not and this is where Alstom may get a foothold

 

[Hydro]

Not wanting to diminish your observations, but every time ive had the misfortune of travelling on a 395 (which is frequently) they have been noisy and shaky. You dont hear too many rattling panels, but the whole body shakes.

That problem has been rectified by Hitachi. It was something to do with the lateral dampers, which induced the vibrations when passing through tunnels.

Every 395 I've been on recently (which too, is frequently) has been fine. No vibrations, quiet, no additional vibration on passing another train and no noise from the doors.