The Virgin Trains railcard peak easement

[bnm]

So what is the solution?

Remove the railcard easement.

 

[LexyBoy]

So what is the solution?

Introducing a shoulder peak (aka "Off Peak") would be a start (the current SVRs from e.g. Manchester are so restricted they should be called Super Off Peak IMO).

If trains are running empty there is no justification in them being classed as Peak (except to push customers into buying Advance fares).

As an aside, I personally don't subscribe to the "don't criticise it if you can't do better" school of thought. It's a lot easier to spot a problem than to solve it - accepted - but that shouldn't mean that no-one points it out.

Remove the railcard easement.

That too! Surely this fare avoidance is subsidised by Virgin's oft-criticised Anytime prices...

 

[AlterEgo]

As an aside, I personally don't subscribe to the "don't criticise it if you can't do better" school of thought. It's a lot easier to spot a problem than to solve it - accepted - but that shouldn't mean that no-one points it out.

No, but it's nice to hear solutions!

I am not sure yet another level of fares should be introduced. After all, isn't our fares system complicated enough?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely this fare avoidance is subsidised by Virgin's oft-criticised Anytime prices...

Fare avoidance? How is it fare avoidance?

 

[wintonian]

It seems to me that they are in effect turning a any permitted or whatever into a TOC specific ticket, ablit only for some customers at certain times of the day, is there an argument that perhaps such a restriction ought to appear on the ticket or don't it need to being an easement?

 

[LexyBoy]

No, but it's nice to hear solutions!

I am not sure yet another level of fares should be introduced. After all, isn't our fares system complicated enough?

We already have Super Off Peak tickets on the ECML, GWML and WCML (LM), so it's not making it any more complicated I'd say. As long as they are relatively standardised across the board, that is.

Virgin could hardly claim that they aren't introducing an OPR because it would be too complicated, what with their SVH and Super Off Peak Travelcard (which, er, must be bought in advance).

Fare avoidance? How is it fare avoidance?

Because they're avoiding paying the full Anytime fare? OK, tongue out of cheek time - Virgin would like to claim that their hugely restrictive (on certain flows) Off Peak tickets are thus restricted in order to manage demand, whereas in fact it exists to encourage customers to buy Advance tickets on "peak" trains which would be practically empty without these Advance fares.

The fact that Virgin have an offer whereby people holding an already discounted Off Peak ticket may travel on any train shows that they view the Anytime fares as almost a penalty for not booking in advance, and to get the maximum possible revenue from business travellers who need the flexibility.

I think demand management can be done using a two- or (probably better) three-tier system of flexible fares, and that this is far better for the passenger. The current overcrowding/underutilisation problems stem from the enormous price differential between Anytime and Off Peak fares, and the fact that Off Peak begins so late that there has been an accumulation of wannabe travellers during the morning.

Of course, this is unlikely to happen whilst the intercity TOCs favour Advance fares - not because of managing demand, because AP tickets are not used for this IMO, but because the revenue allocation from Advances is more favourable. I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on how the system could be improved, but I feel that promoting flexible tickets in most circumstances would benefit not only the passenger but the industry as a whole.

<end of ill-informed ramblings>

 

[General Zod]

I've just done a fares/times search on thetrainline.com and it allows the purchase of a London Euston (EUS) to Glasgow Central (GLC) railcard discounted weekday Off Peak Return pre 0905 but does not show for sale the High Wycombe (HWY) - GLC ( via London) equivalent ticket. I assume that all other train ticket sites have also adjusted their software in accordance to this new rule ? Swift work if they have.

 

[island]

Virgin already offers super off-peak returns, or did at some point at least.

 

[AlterEgo]

Virgin already offers super off-peak returns, or did at some point at least.

They were promotional, mainly on the Euston - Wolves route.

 

[tony_mac]

Regardless of how it happens, I don't think that 5 or 6 passengers per coach on a 'peak' time pendolino is a good use of the railways.

 

[AlterEgo]

We already have Super Off Peak tickets on the ECML, GWML and WCML (LM), so it's not making it any more complicated I'd say. As long as they are relatively standardised across the board, that is.

Virgin could hardly claim that they aren't introducing an OPR because it would be too complicated, what with their SVH and Super Off Peak Travelcard (which, er, must be bought in advance).

But a SVR is a regulated fare. Are you suggesting, say, a new fare band to sit between the £70.00 SVR and the £289.00 SOR on the Manchester/London route? That would involve creating yet another ticket (you can't just hike a SVR by say 50%!); I'm not sure if this would be a good thing. Plus, you'd then get people 'downgrading' from the SOR (people on expenses mainly!) so revenue may be lost overall.

Because they're avoiding paying the full Anytime fare?

<end of ill-informed ramblings>

Actually the best suggestion I've ever read on this forum came from a layman - it was about annual season tickets and protecting them from loss by issuing weekly coupons using the current ToD systems.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It seems to me that they are in effect turning a any permitted or whatever into a TOC specific ticket, ablit only for some customers at certain times of the day, is there an argument that perhaps such a restriction ought to appear on the ticket or don't it need to being an easement?

Restrictions to the services of particular TOCs must be shown on the ticket (NRCoC), this is not a restriction, so it does not need to be shown. If you want to be picky about it, there are quite a few tickets from/via/to London which have different restrictions depending on which London Terminal is used. That would be impossible to put on a ticket if it counted as a TOC restriction.

 

[calc7]

I've just done a fares/times search on thetrainline.com and it allows the purchase of a London Euston (EUS) to Glasgow Central (GLC) railcard discounted weekday Off Peak Return pre 0905 but does not show for sale the High Wycombe (HWY) - GLC ( via London) equivalent ticket. I assume that all other train ticket sites have also adjusted their software in accordance to this new rule ? Swift work if they have.

That the easement only applies when all travel is on Virgin Trains is not a fresh restriction - I've heard it mentioned for a couple of months or so now. I was just posting an example of its documentation.

 

[wintonian]

Restrictions to the services of particular TOCs must be shown on the ticket (NRCoC), this is not a restriction, so it does not need to be shown. If you want to be picky about it, there are quite a few tickets from/via/to London which have different restrictions depending on which London Terminal is used. That would be impossible to put on a ticket if it counted as a TOC restriction.

Whilst I do agree with you these are now effectively TOC specific tickets before xx: xx for railcard holders.

 

[island]

Could Virgin rename the current SVR to an SSR and introduce a new SVR at a higher price and lower restrictions? I know the current SVR is protected, but as long as it's maintained in existence under some name, it's still there, right?

 

[AlterEgo]

Could Virgin rename the current SVR to an SSR and introduce a new SVR at a higher price and lower restrictions? I know the current SVR is protected, but as long as it's maintained in existence under some name, it's still there, right?

Yes, but you cannot just hike the price, as long-distance SVRs are regulated fares.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Whilst I do agree with you these are now effectively TOC specific tickets before xx: xx for railcard holders.

Maybe they are in effect, but that's not what the rules say and you might start to get issues with excesses if you enforce it that way. Equally, I think complaints along those lines will also only get the easement removed, which isn't a good thing.

 

[mickey]

Don't forget that this is not a 'new' announcement but a 'clarification', and not one for general public use at that. Through tickets with this easement haven't appeared in booking sites for a long time (if ever), and I've never known a TM or gateline staff to question anyone with a ticket valid further than the respective VT destination. I also don't expect them to start doing so - I think the blog was posted entirely as an aide to agents, who quite understandably are often confused about ticketing but don't want to show this to their own clients.

 

[yorkie]

mickey - it's relatively new, but this particular announcement isn't new. This is (at least) the second thread about the (relatively) new restrictions.

I don't agree that a ticket from, say, Horsham to Bolton is barred, because if you start/finish short at Euston & Manchester than "all travel" is on Virgin Trains - that is the way it is worded, arguably. If it's unclear, there is legislation that resolves that in the customers favour

I agree that no-one is going to be interested in enforcing this rule. I think it only exists because other TOCs (e.g. LM) are unhappy that they lose revenue from the tickets and would object if clauses were not inserted to, in their view, keep the issuing of such tickets to a minimum.

There is, in fact, a relatively easy way round it. But it would be very silly to post it here because it could have a detrimental effect and possibly get the easement withdrawn - which would be bad for everyone. So I will not. And given that no-one will benefit, as no-one is being prevented from using these tickets (that we know of - I'd be shocked if we ever get a case) there is no point anyway.

 

[RJ]

I'm sure the majority of travellers inadverently use that "workaround!"

 

[LexyBoy]

Yes, but you cannot just hike the price, as long-distance SVRs are regulated fares.

This is exactly what FGW did a couple of years ago- the regulated fare was transferred to a SSR with the tightest restrictions allowed, and the SVR bumped up in price around 30%.

 

[faddy]

I don't know if this is relevant, but I had a play with the Virgin self-service machine at Lime Street last night.

Selecting Blackheath as destination I was only offered, for travel today, Anytime tickets. I then added a railcard, and Off-peak tickets were also offered.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, and that is fine, so long as you only use Virgin Trains.

 

[faddy]

Yes, and that is fine, so long as you only use Virgin Trains.

But Virgin don't go all the way to Blackheath

 

[calc7]

But Virgin don't go all the way to Blackheath

That's not a problem, you only intend to travel as far as London Euston.

 

[faddy]

That's not a problem, you only intend to travel as far as London Euston.

My point, if there was one, was that I presume the machine is applying the railcard easement and doesn't seem to care about the Virgin trains only rule.

 

[calc7]

My point, if there was one, was that I presume the machine is applying the railcard easement and doesn't seem to care about the Virgin trains only rule.

The easement used to be any flow priced by Virgin. Some TOCs kicked off as some customers were managing quite long distances on their peak trains using this ticket. As a result, it is now for Virgin-priced flows and only for travel on Virgin Trains.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't know if this is relevant, but I had a play with the Virgin self-service machine at Lime Street last night.

Selecting Blackheath as destination I was only offered, for travel today, Anytime tickets. I then added a railcard, and Off-peak tickets were also offered.

Interesting...that shouldn't happen.