London-Shotton Off Peak Argument

[LNW-GW Joint]

The question then would be why have Virgin got tighter on peak restrictions from English and Scottish stations and leave them relaxed at Welsh stations?

It's to fill up trains in Wales and Scotland that would otherwise be empty. Simple marketing.
The off-peak SVR restriction is VK starting from North Wales (Holyhead to Shotton) and VN from London.

Shotton (same fare as Flint and, as it happens, Chester and many other nearby stations) just happens to be the first station with fewer off-peak restrictions (there used to be none at all until a couple of years ago).
The VK/VN restrictions only came in a few months ago to prevent starting/stopping short at Chester/Crewe (outward, no restriction on return).
Interestingly Wrexham, despite obviously being in Wales, takes the same restriction as Chester/Crewe etc (2C).

The only afternoon northbound restriction to North Wales on VK is on the 1610 ex Euston.

It's probably the same in Scotland. I expect there are less restrictive deals from Lockerbie/Dumfries/Glasgow etc into Euston than there are from Carlisle.

 

[nedchester]

More train manager woes on the famous 0829 Crewe-Euston Service

Date of Travel: Tuesday 6th December 2011. 0755 Chester 0816 Crewe 0829 - 1004 London
Ticket Type: London-Shotton Off Peak return £70.

I 'started' my return journey at Chester. My understanding being that I can do this under the TOC for the ticket (National rail conditions and Virgin ticket type VN)

After I boarded the Crewe - London leg the Train Manager (Gavin) made an announcement as follows:
"We have had ticket barriers in place at Shotton and Flint this morning so any passenger travelling with a ticket from those stations that has not had their ticket stamped will be liable to pay the full single fare of £107"

Two people in my carriage were challenged before me. One paid the £107 - the second said that there was no staff at Shotton when she got there at 0715 - the train manager said he would check and get back to her - he never did.

.

Probably because he was almost certainly lying!!!

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, almost certainly lying!

And definitely not even a shadow of a possibility he was mistaken at all.

:roll:

 

[sheff1]

Well, he said he would get back to her and didn't. If I phone a call centre and they promise someone will phone back but then a call never arrives, I consider I have been lied to. It may be a mistake/oversight, but where the option exists I would take my custom elsewhere, feeling I had been lied to.

As the TM seemed to be at pains to charge people £107, it seems very strange that he should somehow 'forget' two of the people he wanted to charge when they stood up to him.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, he said he would get back to her and didn't. If I phone a call centre and they promise someone will phone back but then a call never arrives, I consider I have been lied to. It may be a mistake/oversight, but where the option exists I would take my custom elsewhere, feeling I had been lied to.

I think you don't actually know what the word "lie" means.

- noun
1. deliberately false statement
2. to tell a lie

A lie is someone telling you they'll come back to you, or call you back, without having that intention at the time.

If someone tells you they'll get back to you, intending to do so, and then forget, that isn't a lie, that's an oversight.

From the customer's perspective, it's impossible to tell. Unless you have the ability to read minds?

I suppose this cynicism you have for staff providing a service to you isn't okay when it's staff being cynical about a customer?

Life is a two way street.

 

[sheff1]

I thought my post was clear that it might be a mistake/oversight but, from the recipient's point of view, it could be thought a lie.

I am quite happy to admit that I am a cynic by nature. Clearly, other people (including staff providing a service) will being equally cynical.

The key point for me in this case is that the OP, travelling in a perfectly valid manner, was told he was invalid. Whether this was a lie with a hope of extracting £107 or a mistake, only the TM will know.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am quite happy to admit that I am a cynic by nature. Clearly, other people (including staff providing a service) will being equally cynical.

Fair enough. But I can't help but think that kind of automatic, blanket-cynical attitude displayed by a staff member ("you didn't forget your Railcard, you just didn't have one - liar") would be rightly criticised on these forums.

Cynicism is an important human trait, but it shouldn't run the world.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The key point for me in this case is that the OP, travelling in a perfectly valid manner, was told he was invalid. Whether this was a lie with a hope of extracting £107 or a mistake, only the TM will know.

Oh yes, quite! I don't think a train manager is going to deliberately lie over a couple of quid commission on an excess fare, though.

That would be incredibly cynical!

 

[34D]

oh yes, quite! I don't think a train manager is going to deliberately lie over a couple of quid commission on an excess fare, though.

That would be incredibly cynical!

I've seen TMs take money and not issue a ticket (with my own eyes) so anything is possible.

I don't see a problem with giving the first name of the TM

 

[185]

One or two are not fit to be in the job, we already all know that.

I've hear the same names mentioned over and over again.

However 99.999% of people checking tickets, fortunately have some sort of a brain.

 

[pwillo1]

Interestingly Wrexham, despite obviously being in Wales, takes the same restriction as Chester/Crewe etc (2C).

And more interestingly, Upton Merseyside is the same class as North Wales Coast (VK/VN)

Regarding the 'routing guide' I have seen mentioned here.

I am travelling tonight London(Euston) - Upton leaving on the 1807 from EUS. It is an off-peak ticket. (Route Euston-Liverpool-Bidston-Upton)
The only restriction on a VN class ticket (I can find) is that I cannot use the 1610 Holyhead train from EUS.
Does that mean therefore I can use ticket (off peak) on other Liverpool departures this afternoon. Or am I governed by the fact that the 1807 departure was the only one returned as a selection in the ticket search?

 

[northwichcat]

It's to fill up trains in Wales that would otherwise be empty. Simple marketing.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense. If the trains have plenty of empty seats between Holyhead and Chester and are quite full beyond there then they would offer cheap Virgin only day tickets for North Wales to Chester, like they do with Stoke to Manchester and Crewe to Manchester.

Also in doing that they are filling up ATW's 07:45 Llandudno to Manchester service more than their own services.

It's probably the same in Scotland. I expect there are less restrictive deals from Lockerbie/Dumfries/Glasgow etc into Euston than there are from Carlisle.

No the tickets with Scottish stations as the origin have more restrictions on them than the tickets with Cumbria stations as the origin. The £97.30 Off Peak Return for Carlisle to London has less restrictions than the £114.70 Off Peak Return for Glasgow to London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And more interestingly, Upton Merseyside is the same class as North Wales Coast (VK/VN)

Not really that surprising, as the shortest route between Upton and London is via Shotton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

word of caution to anyone at Chester thinking of using an off peak outward portion from Flint or Shotton to London sx, im told that the guard of the 0643 atw service from Chester to Crewe is the guard that works in to Chester on the connection from LLandudno Junction,anyone boarding at Chester with an outward portion from Flint or Shotton that hasn,t been nipped will be excessed to the full fare.

Considering Chester has ticket barriers, anyone with a Flint or Shotton to London ticket will have arrived on Chester on another train, not by foot.

 

[pwillo1]

Not really that surprising, as the shortest route between Upton and London is via Shotton.

But this again points out the anomalies as Upton station is about a mile from Bidston Station. A return to Bidston using the same trains would cost £266 as opposed to £70 to/from Upton.

 

[pwillo1]

But this again points out the anomalies as Upton station is about a mile from Bidston Station. A return to Bidston using the same trains would cost £266 as opposed to £70 to/from Upton.

And the off peak return via the 0848LPL-EUS service does not show as an option on the VT website - but you can purchase this option via national rail - even though that redirects you to VT site to pay.
See attached screengrabs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Your reasoning doesn't make sense.

No the tickets with Scottish stations as the origin have more restrictions on them than the tickets with Cumbria stations as the origin. The £97.30 Off Peak Return for Carlisle to London has less restrictions than the £114.70 Off Peak Return for Glasgow to London.

We are both right. As far as I can see (Avantix-11) stations Lancaster-Glasgow take restriction 3A for SVR tickets, whereas from Preston south it is the more restrictive 2C.
So the relaxation further north covers a wider area than I thought.

Don't ask me to defend Virgin's policy, but it's probably fair enough that longer-distance travel has different restrictions.
Historically there has been less of a "day-trip" market from these places, unlike places with more frequent and shorter journeys.

I also can't find a VK/VN restriction for Upton (unless it is a very recent change), just the usual 2C.

 

[pwillo1]

I also can't find a VK/VN restriction for Upton (unless it is a very recent change), just the usual 2C.

Ok - am worried now. VN is code returned from National Rail website when you click on 'view restrictions for this ticket type'
I suppose as I have seat reservations I should be ok??

 

[OwlMan]

Upton -London return SVR tickets are 2C
London - Upton return SVR tickets are VN

 

[pwillo1]

Upton -London return SVR tickets are 2C
London - Upton return SVR tickets are VN

Hence the confusion. Many thanks for the clarification. I am expecting problems at the gate at Euston tonight trying to get on the 1807 to Liverpool. Any tips for avoiding this. Shall I just quote the VN restriction?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ok - am worried now. VN is code returned from National Rail website when you click on 'view restrictions for this ticket type'
I suppose as I have seat reservations I should be ok??

Just checked on the VT web site, and the 1807 ex Euston is OK to Upton on the off-peak ticket, and so is the 0848 ex Liverpool.
You have to click on cheaper tickets/slower routes to get the 0848 up on the lower fare - exactly the same times displays the Anytime fare on the main site!

Liverpool itself is barred on these tickets, though the 0848 reaches Euston at 1057 only just inside the peak restriction.
Bidston (and probably all Merseyrail stations) take the Liverpool restrictions, but Heswall takes the Upton rules.

All the tickets are Any Permitted so travel via Shotton or Liverpool is allowed, but I have not found a routing via Hooton.

Hope it works out...

 

[pwillo1]

All the tickets are Any Permitted so travel via Shotton or Liverpool is allowed, but I have not found a routing via Hooton.

Many thanks for response - you even answered a question I hadn't asked yet - whether I could go via Hooton to Chester. (no!)

Final question.

So on a London-Upton return SVR (VN) can I return as follows??

0706 Bidston - 0734 Liverpool - 0829 Crewe - London 1004

taking advantage of break of journey allowance on return to start at Bidston (Upton's first train of morning is not till 0721) and VN restriction to arrive Euston after 1000
(Bidston/Upton are about an equidistant short walk for me!)

My worry would be travelling on an off-peak ticket on the Liverpool-Crewe 0734 service.

Which takes me back on the 0829 from Crewe which is where this thread started....

 

[bb21]

The full text for restriction VN is attached. As can be seen, there is no restriction on any train which does not go near London. The 0734 London Midland service from Liverpool Lime Street (code LIV, please note) only goes to Birmingham New Street, hence this train is not restricted to holders of tickets with VN restriction.

There is no break of journey restriction on the return portion of a VK ticket, hence starting short is perfectly fine.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Many thanks for response - you even answered a question I hadn't asked yet - whether I could go via Hooton to Chester. (no!)

Final question.
So on a London-Upton return SVR (VN) can I return as follows??
0706 Bidston - 0734 Liverpool - 0829 Crewe - London 1004
taking advantage of break of journey allowance on return to start at Bidston (Upton's first train of morning is not till 0721) and VN restriction to arrive Euston after 1000
(Bidston/Upton are about an equidistant short walk for me!)

My worry would be travelling on an off-peak ticket on the Liverpool-Crewe 0734 service.
Which takes me back on the 0829 from Crewe which is where this thread started....

I can't get either the NRES or Virgin web sites to cough up a Euston arrival before 1057 on the SVR fare.
You are quite right to say NRES brings up the VN/VK restriction, but I'm not sure this is the actual set of restrictions from Upton, as the journey planners would show the various options.

Somebody much brighter than me will need to have a look at this...


Another time, I don't see what is wrong with buying a Euston-Shotton SVR and then a local ticket to Upton for the outward journey,
coming back on another local ticket to Chester via Hooton and picking up your return SVR at Chester on the 0755 via Crewe to reach Euston at 1004.
Break of journey on VN is allowed on the return journey from Shotton, so you could start short at Chester.
I know you've done this before on the Upton ticket, but I'm not sure this is right, whereas it looks OK from Shotton itself.
If only the validity code was printed on the ticket we would know precisely!

 

[pwillo1]

Same happened again this morning.

London - Shotton off-peak return (VN)

I started return leg short at Chester. Ticket stamped on Chester to Crewe (0755) leg.
On 0829 Virgin Service to Euston, TM told me my ticket wasn't valid as I hadn't started in Shotton. I asked (as per advice) if he knew the national rail conditions and validity code for this ticket. He said yes. I said "I have a copy here".

He read the conditions and said that the sentence in the break of journey clause " unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it" meant that I could not start at Chester as this was peak time.

I pointed out that this clause was meant to refer to the specific validity code for the ticket -VN - which DID allow break of journey.

he said I was just interpreting the conditions to suit my own purposes.

i said "well the TM on the Chester-Crewe leg thought my ticket was valid. this ticket is now validated for this journey."

he said - "I suppose you think that (break of journey) means you could board at Milton Keynes". I said - "yes - I does mean that. I may start at any intermediate station."

Again threatened with "Revenue Protection" when I arrived at Euston. No one there again when I arrived, though the TM was having an argument with three other passengers on the platform.

 

[Brucey]

As this is a regular occurrence, I'd definitely recommend you contact Virgin Trains Customer Relations to ensure that all their staff are fully briefed on this situation.

 

[Tommy1]

I also got pulledup on the 0829 this morning and argued the toss with the guy. He was a bit aggressive with it but i insisted that nobody had stamped my ticket despite being on the train from Shotton. He tried the quick-fire questions routine to catch me out but i came back with the right answers s(despite not really knowing all the facts as you people seem to) straight away and he had no choice but to walk away while saying I'd have to meet "revenue" at euston.
i can imagine that a lot of people would have been intimidated and paid the higher fare.
Anyway the guy was standing on the platform but i walked past him without him stopping me or anything.
Glad other people had the same, and this forum reassures me somewhat!

 

[bengolding]

Incredible. I commute almost daily from Rugby to Euston and speaking to many of the good Virgin TMs, a few are known to have a reputation (mostly Manchester or Preston based). I know a number of their names but won't mention them in a public forum. Suffice to say, they are all male!

I'd strongly recommend taking this up with Virgin. If you are abiding by the T&Cs of the ticket, one wonders how many passengers have been forced to buy new tickets on the 08:29/09:29 from Crewe when they shouldn't have?

 

[yorkie]

Virgin Trains Customer Relations staff have read this topic, but you do need to write to them. Ensure the letter is concise and constructive. I am happy to proof read letters if required.

 

[pwillo1]

Virgin Trains Customer Relations staff have read this topic, but you do need to write to them. Ensure the letter is concise and constructive. I am happy to proof read letters if required.

Many thanks. I will do that. This was my last Shotton ticket in any event. Last week I used London - Upton ticket without any problems. It has same validity as Shotton and is same price so saves me the extra cost of getting to Upton on way out and to Chester/Crewe on return leg. I can also go via Liverpool on way out so is quicker. No doubt will cause an issue on the 0829 Crewe service one day though.

 

[RJ]

Interesting thread. I thought 9I was always the restriction for the reverse direction of 2C coded tickets.

I think it should be mentioned that you "savvy" people are paying quite a bit more than you need to. There is another loophole that allows travel on the same trains for less than £70.

 

[pwillo1]

Interesting thread. I thought 9I was always the restriction for the return portion of 2C coded tickets.

But London-Shotton is a VN? Doesn't the restriction apply across both legs?

 

[island]

Restriction codes are the same for outbound and return legs of tickets (with the exception, I suppose, being when you are using a ticket that cross-references another code for "journeys from London St. Pancras" and your outbound journey went into Kings Cross, or suchlike). Certain pairs of restrictions are the "opposite" of one another, for example SVR Shotton to London Terminals is VK, and SVR London Terminals to Shotton is VN; these are the mirror image of one another.