Cambridgeshire Council Tax Payers

[ivanhoe]

In reality , the line from St Ives to Cambridge was never going to re-open . A tram system was never going to be built unless Cambridge itself was going to have a comprehensive system. BestWestern has put the case very well as to why the Guided Bus System was built. There is however so much inherant snobbery when it comes to Buses and unfortunately this has come through from the usual suspects on this thread. Trains are not the panacea for all of our transport problems . Different transport solutions are spometimes required to ensure that transport provision is inclusive, not exclusive.

 

[yorksrob]

In reality , the line from St Ives to Cambridge was never going to re-open .

Just like Oxford - Bicester was never going to re-open, or Chandlers Ford - Eastleigh was never going to re-open...........

 

[BestWestern]

Basically the Local Authorities involved have bottled it. In St Ives they've gone against a backdrop of public support which has been there for re-opening ever since the line closed, and rushed to get something in "on the cheap" (quotation marks because it wasn't all that cheap afterall). They should have waited.

The local authorities don't have the opportunity to 'bottle it' when it comes to reopening railway lines, those decisions are made at a far higher level. A much fairer summary would be that the local authorities saw that there was scant possibility of anybody relaying any track any time soon and decided to put the route to a good alternative use, constructing a fast and direct public transport link.

 

[yorksrob]

The local authorities don't have the opportunity to 'bottle it' when it comes to reopening railway lines, those decisions are made at a far higher level. A much fairer summary would be that the local authorities saw that there was scant possibility of anybody relaying any track any time soon and decided to put the route to a good alternative use, constructing a fast and direct public transport link.

They bottled it in the seventies, when they almost went through with it but didn't, they bottled it in the eighties when they could have taken a leaf out of Oxfordshire's book and they've bottled it again in not forming a united front and canvessing the relevant higher authorities of the need for the re-instatement. The vast majority of the track was actually in situ until quite recently and could have been mothballed if they'd made the right arrangements with Network Rail. They could have shown everyone that they were serious.

Bottle bottle bottle.

 

[Nym]

Unlike most other places where the routes are near desperate for re-opening, some idiots hadn't sold off the land for housing.

Naming no names Eccles!

Well, naming no names Greater Manchester Council!

Loads of routes could relive other routes for just a lil bit of forward thinking or larger structures...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Unlike most other places where the routes are near desperate for re-opening, some idiots hadn't sold off the land for housing.

Naming no names Eccles!

Or built a rowing lake on it...

 

[BestWestern]

They bottled it in the seventies, when they almost went through with it but didn't, they bottled it in the eighties when they could have taken a leaf out of Oxfordshire's book and they've bottled it again in not forming a united front and canvessing the relevant higher authorities of the need for the re-instatement. The vast majority of the track was actually in situ until quite recently and could have been mothballed if they'd made the right arrangements with Network Rail. They could have shown everyone that they were serious.

Bottle bottle bottle.

I'm afraid you fail to understand the complexities of reopening a railway line, it really is an awful lot more involved than the local authorities and pressure groups just badgering the Government. There are disused and long-closed routes up and down the country with various bodies supporting their rejoining the national network, in some cases with great vigor. Sadly, many of them will not reopen any time in the near future, if indeed at all. It would be wonderful if they did, but they simply won't. Network Rail has to allot it's available funding to the various projects required for each set period of time, it can't simply wave a magic wand and set about reopening railway lines here there and everywhere. Needless to say those funds are stretched greatly, and compromises will always be required. Add to this the need to find extra rolling stock to run new services, the additional train paths required over the connecting parts of the existing network, and so on, and the true cost becomes very clear.

Times are tough and the powers that be are spending very cautiously indeed; look at the plans to electrify only half the running lines to Wales as part of the GWML wiring. Upgrading and maintaining the network we already have is likely to remain the priority over and above the reopening of new routes, for some time to come. If the real world prospects of reopening your local line are close to nil, then a busway should be welcomed as a substantial improvement over nothing at all.

 

[tbtc]

In reality , the line from St Ives to Cambridge was never going to re-open . A tram system was never going to be built unless Cambridge itself was going to have a comprehensive system. BestWestern has put the case very well as to why the Guided Bus System was built. There is however so much inherant snobbery when it comes to Buses and unfortunately this has come through from the usual suspects on this thread. Trains are not the panacea for all of our transport problems . Different transport solutions are spometimes required to ensure that transport provision is inclusive, not exclusive.

I agree with all of that.

I do worry about rail enthusiasts criticising the bus-way because it was a badly managed project that was delivered late/ over-budget (when the same could be said of so many rail projects).

 

[LE Greys]

I agree with all of that.

I do worry about rail enthusiasts criticising the bus-way because it was a badly managed project that was delivered late/ over-budget (when the same could be said of so many rail projects).

And especially one particular tram project. However, it's worth remembering that this is basically a plateway, and plateways were not entirely successful for several reasons. Firstly, they tended to clog up with debris, making "deplatements" more likely. Secondly, their ride quality was not exactly brilliant. Thirdly, pointwork was not too easy to make. Fourth, rolling resistance was higher. The busway does have the advantage that buses can move away from it, which plateways cannot do. But is that worth it?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm afraid you fail to understand the complexities of reopening a railway line, it really is an awful lot more involved than the local authorities and pressure groups just badgering the Government. There are disused and long-closed routes up and down the country with various bodies supporting their rejoining the national network, in some cases with great vigor. Sadly, many of them will not reopen any time in the near future, if indeed at all. It would be wonderful if they did, but they simply won't. Network Rail has to allot it's available funding to the various projects required for each set period of time, it can't simply wave a magic wand and set about reopening railway lines here there and everywhere. Needless to say those funds are stretched greatly, and compromises will always be required. Add to this the need to find extra rolling stock to run new services, the additional train paths required over the connecting parts of the existing network, and so on, and the true cost becomes very clear.

Times are tough and the powers that be are spending very cautiously indeed; look at the plans to electrify only half the running lines to Wales as part of the GWML wiring. Upgrading and maintaining the network we already have is likely to remain the priority over and above the reopening of new routes, for some time to come. If the real world prospects of reopening your local line are close to nil, then a busway should be welcomed as a substantial improvement over nothing at all.

Now you're doing what all the re-opening sceptics do at this stage in the argument, which is to apply the current (admittedly dire) financial situation to the whole of the past thirty years of procrastination. The St Ives busway was begun in 2007 - before the Lehmans collapse when we were still in the financial land of milk and honey.

Even if you ignore the years of wasted opportunity and consider a re-opening in the recent past, it is fair to say that it would be difficult, given the convoluted nature of our franchising system, but you say it as if the status quo is set in stone. We've already been through at least two forms of privatisation in the last fifteen years so it's highly likely that this will change again. Also, even if they couldn't get the re-opening done by Network Rail, they could have investigated leasing the line from them and got their own contractors to clear and repair the track. They could even have looked into operating a micro-franchise until the latest franchising round came up, negotiating paths into Cambridge on an open access basis. If all of these things can be done by preserved railways with minimal funding and without the planning process behind them (which they have been), I find it impossible to believe that a determined consortium of local authorities couldn't do the same.

Even the old chestnut about rolling stock isn't true. There is a shortage, but as the current cascading shows, this is a fluid situation and there are ample opportunities to source a unit here or there. Yes - an established franchise elsewhere would lose out for the time being - tough. Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[Nym]

That and if it was re-opened it would have been electrfied at 25KV OHL, and that isn't the stock I'd consider in shortage, since it will always have a use and residual value, theres never any harm in ordering more.

 

[LE Greys]

To add to what I said above, nobody ever considers the other obvious advantage of sending buses via one dedicated route and electrifying it. I know that means more work, because you have to electrify the city as well, but it's about time someone did.

 

[Nym]

I have an idea, for if you're going to electrify the bus route, why not, instead of slabs for tyres to run on, you put two lines of steel, 4ft 10 and a bit inches appart, and run these kinds of buses that run on them things, the're usually a lot bigger than buses and can run up to 100mph... Oh, and they can go other places and have a 40 year lifespan...

 

[tbtc]

And especially one particular tram project. However, it's worth remembering that this is basically a plateway, and plateways were not entirely successful for several reasons. Firstly, they tended to clog up with debris, making "deplatements" more likely. Secondly, their ride quality was not exactly brilliant. Thirdly, pointwork was not too easy to make. Fourth, rolling resistance was higher. The busway does have the advantage that buses can move away from it, which plateways cannot do. But is that worth it?

I think we'll need three/five years before we can really say, given the size of the project (compared to the tiny sections in Leeds/ Bradford/ Edinburgh etc).

But I'm interested to see whether it lives up to the promise. No guarantees in any public transport project - for every "Alloa" you get an "East Midlands Parkway" / for every Croydon Tramlink there's a Midland Metro ...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think we'll need three/five years before we can really say, given the size of the project (compared to the tiny sections in Leeds/ Bradford/ Edinburgh etc).

But I'm interested to see whether it lives up to the promise. No guarantees in any public transport project - for every "Alloa" you get an "East Midlands Parkway" / for every Croydon Tramlink there's a Midland Metro ...

What's up with East Midlands Parkway?

 

[Mojo]

What's up with East Midlands Parkway?

It's a white elephant. Although fortunately one largely funded by Stagecoach.

 

[Nym]

Well, stagecoach do like funding stupid things...

(Look into the realm of history and causes that wouldn't be popular with people like me that they funded)

 

[ivanhoe]

It's a white elephant. Although fortunately one largely funded by Stagecoach.

Wasn't this part of the franchise agreement? Nobody& I mean nobody would build a station by 4 cooling towers, miles from nowhere, unless some soft sod from DFT said so?

 

[bb21]

Stagecoach have a good track record regarding investment (regardless of how much I despise a certain individual) so I highly doubt that there was no push from behind via DafT.

Look on the bright side. At lease Stagecoach is making good use of it as an interchange for its brainchild 'megabusplus'.

 

[tbtc]

Well, stagecoach do like funding stupid things...

(Look into the realm of history and causes that wouldn't be popular with people like me that they funded)

If you are talking about what I think you are talking about, you should really say "Brian Souter, in his personal life, likes funding..." - I don't think you are talking about a *Stagecoach* donation...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's up with East Midlands Parkway?

It's a white elephant. Although fortunately one largely funded by Stagecoach.

Yup.

There are projects which work and projects which don't. Damning all Guided Busways because of the difficulties getting the Cambridgeshire one up and running is a bit like damning all trams because of the difficulties getting the Edinburgh one up and running (when there are some trams that work well and some that underperform).

 

[deltabravo]

I would probably like busways better if the bus network outside of London was regulated, bring stability, and something that can be easily promoted and a simpler set of fares implemented.