Future for 9 East Anglia Class 317s

[jopsuk]

I agree with your doubts - I don't think we do really know. IIRC this subject all started off following a post in wnxx by Tony Miles, following his comment on Radio 4, which referred to 15 units. That eventually was reduced to 9 units.

I think all we do know for certain is that the 168 extra vehicles for NXEA (30 x 379 and 17 x 321) were organised and agreed with DfT back when it was intended that 12 car trains would be needed on Stansted Airport runs.
Clearly this isn't happening now, and a number of posts have suggested (across a range of forums), and going back a year or more, that this has resulted in NXEA having a certain amount of spare capacity especially if all the various out of use units were reinstated.

So all in all I think you can only say that if the excess capacity is on the WA and Stansted routes it is probably 317s that become available.

However the December timetable was written after it was decided to run the Stansted Express as 8-car, and it has additional services, services using 317s instead of 315s and services that are 8x317 up from 4x317- so quite where that leaves fleet availability I'm not sure- with the intention of using the 317/7 for GE services it may have required some of the "resting" units back in service?

 

[Pyromaniac]

Changing the subject, do we *know* that the units released from East Anglia are definitely 317s (not 321s or 315s?)? Or when?

I would certainly bet on them being 317's, there is certainly about 8 units dumped over at Harwich International (and have been for quite a few months) all "off the wire" and very much asleep.

 

[tbtc]

I would certainly bet on them being 317's, there is certainly about 8 units dumped over at Harwich International (and have been for quite a few months) all "off the wire" and very much asleep.

Cheers.

So these eight units could head north without "hurting" any WA/ GEML services? In which case I'm all for it.

 

[IanXC]

The initial Northern electrification part will need about a dozen EMUs (based on current service patterns):

Liverpool - Blackpool (3 EMUs)
Liverpool - Manchester Airport (3 EMUs)
Liverpool - Wigan (4 EMUs)
One Peak Extra - hypothetically (1 EMU)
Spare capacity of around 10% (1 EMU)

So, on their own that won't be quite enough to convert these services. Plus, of course, service patterns will change (e.g. the Liverpool - Staleybridge service will probably be cut back to Manchester Victoria).

I think this use of this stock as a stop gap for the period after the first electrification is finished, but before the 319s are available is probably the best use they can be put to. Brings benefits to those routes plus brings cascade of DMUs forward compared to waiting for the 319s.

 

[Nym]

Personally, thanks to platform lengths, I think that 323s or 380s would be best for Greater Manchester, thanks mainly to Oxford Road and Salford Crescent.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally, thanks to platform lengths, I think that 323s or 380s would be best for Greater Manchester, thanks mainly to Oxford Road and Salford Crescent.

Unless a new type of EMU for the West Midlands commuter services is ordered then we won't get additional 323s in the North West. The 319s would have worse problems on the London Midland 323 routes than the Northern 323 routes.

 

[87015]

Cheers.

So these eight units could head north without "hurting" any WA/ GEML services? In which case I'm all for it.

No, they are all diagrammed out again in December as per other threads. 9 extra GE units in addition to the various WA enhancements. There is no real slack in the fleet - shortforms are common - trying to get seven extra unit diagrams out of the existing fleet is going to end in tears unless they have some magic fairy dust to make the units fault proof.

 

[tbtc]

I think this use of this stock as a stop gap for the period after the first electrification is finished, but before the 319s are available is probably the best use they can be put to. Brings benefits to those routes plus brings cascade of DMUs forward compared to waiting for the 319s.

Looking at my maths again, the Liverpool - Blackpool service won't be needing EMUs for a while after (Blackpool is the next phase of electrification), so that reduces the number of additional EMUs a little.

It'd be a step in the right direction. Maybe not as big a step as some want, but it would be a short term improvement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, they are all diagrammed out again in December as per other threads. 9 extra GE units in addition to the various WA enhancements

What enhancements are planned? Additional services or longer trains? (or both)

 

[87015]

What enhancements are planned? Additional services or longer trains? (or both)

Both - http://www.nationalexpresseastanglia.com/dec11

 

[tbtc]

Both - http://www.nationalexpresseastanglia.com/dec11

Cheers

 

[Minstral25]

If Bombardier still want to make 379s (as they offered to Southern, instead of 377s...) then a follow on order for NXEA would give more scope to cascade some 317/321s north, but thats not likely.

Off topic but: When did we find out that Bombardier only offer Southern 379's and not something compatible with the 377's?? Think I missed that one

 

[jopsuk]

Both - http://www.nationalexpresseastanglia.com/dec11

Oddly, there doesn't seem to be anything on their website about the changes to Mainline, Metro or Rural services. Given that most of the "changes" poster at stations is actually given over to those, with the WA and Stansted Express just showing the off-peak changes and "see website for peak time changes, there's a lot of them, blimey", this seems remiss.

 

[Class377/5]

Off topic but: When did we find out that Bombardier only offer Southern 379's and not something compatible with the 377's?? Think I missed that one

In November's Modern Railway, pg 34 Informed Sources states

"Bombardier, which according to informed sources, has been trying to sell Southern the more expensive Greater Anglia Class 379 design, rather than open a new line to manufacture the simpler class 377".

Nothing states the 377 is incompatible with the 379 but more it's a cost thing.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'd wager that they are not compatible though.

Every time the software is updated the Cl379 fleet is split up so that units are not worked in multiple with different software releases, hence the blue crosses in the secondmans window to signify which units have had the updates. Given that the Cl379s have features that the Cl377s lack I doubt it would be possible to hook up a mixed formation and run it fault-free. Given the precarious nature of Litchurch Lane it seems churlish of Bombardier to make an issue over any potential future rolling stock order, but then equally you can't blame them for offering a current product.

O L Leigh

 

[Minstral25]

Thanks for answering the question

IMO I expect Southern will use these on the metro fleet as 5 car units so I am sure they are actually looking for a 376 type unit that is compatible with their 377's probably so occasionally they can be used together.

Knowing how these things generally work, I do doubt the 379 is backward compatible to 377's... Progress et al

 

[tbtc]

Every time the software is updated the Cl379 fleet is split up so that units are not worked in multiple with different software releases, hence the blue crosses in the secondmans window to signify which units have had the updates.

So some 379s aren't even compatible with other 379s?

Didn't realise

 

[jopsuk]

Thanks for answering the question

IMO I expect Southern will use these on the metro fleet as 5 car units so I am sure they are actually looking for a 376 type unit that is compatible with their 377's probably so occasionally they can be used together.

Which would probably in fact be a 376- surely they're compatible with 375s 9even if Southeastern never use them together).

Or possibly, with a little bit of work to ensure compatibility, 378s with an alternate layout- I know the seating has some of the equipment underneath it, but surely it is not beyond the wit of man to rearrange it so that at least the centre section of each car has transverse seating.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd wager that they are not compatible though.

Every time the software is updated the Cl379 fleet is split up so that units are not worked in multiple with different software releases, hence the blue crosses in the secondmans window to signify which units have had the updates. Given that the Cl379s have features that the Cl377s lack I doubt it would be possible to hook up a mixed formation and run it fault-free.

So are you saying that they can't couple together and run at all, or that if they try to couple two different software versions together something like the PIS system wouldn't work?

 

[jopsuk]

As an aside, is there confirmation of which services the 317s will run on the GE between the December time table change and whenever Abellio get rid of them?

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem with Cl379s having different software releases is that it is not known precisely what might happen if you tried to run them in multiple. The current rash of blue crosses is in relation to the SDO being reinstated, therefore it is best to keep the units apart until they have all had the latest release in case the software clashes and causes a door fault.

O L Leigh

 

[Class377/5]

The problem with Cl379s having different software releases is that it is not known precisely what might happen if you tried to run them in multiple. The current rash of blue crosses is in relation to the SDO being reinstated, therefore it is best to keep the units apart until they have all had the latest release in case the software clashes and causes a door fault.

O L Leigh

No different from the fact not all 377 can run together. 377/5 can't be electrically coupled to any of Southern's 377's as the software would cause problems and in theory should mean both units shut down as a fail safe.

I believe the 375 & 376 combo that was seen at London Bridge was a case of physically connecting not electrically connecting to each other to avoid software issues.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

So some 379s aren't even compatible with other 379s?

Didn't realise

Only when the blue crosses are in the secondmans window.

Blue cross = software upgrade.

The way it was explained to me, was if a unit with a blue cross and one without were coupled together, the units wouldn't talk to each other.

 

[allticketspls]

The way it was explained to me, was if a unit with a blue cross and one without were coupled together, the units wouldn't talk to each other.

With that explaination, shouldn't the term coupled be replaced by MARRIED!!!

 

[jopsuk]

I appreciate we're diverging somewhat from the 317s, but it was somewhat disconcering to see a chap in a Bombardier jacket (fitter?) walking with the driver to the cab this morning.

No problems, thankfully, at least none apparent to a passenger.

 

[MCR247]

No different from the fact not all 377 can run together. 377/5 can't be electrically coupled to any of Southern's 377's as the software would cause problems and in theory should mean both units shut down as a fail safe.

Then why have 377/2s and /5s been coupled before?

 

[Pumbaa]

Then why have 377/2s and /5s been coupled before?

I was going to say, when the /5s were coming online they were regularly paired with /2s.

 

[Class377/5]

Then why have 377/2s and /5s been coupled before?

I was going to say, when the /5s were coming online they were regularly paired with /2s.

Because the 377/2 had a change of computer program's meaning they had the same software was the /5's did. They also changed the step boards at the same time.

Once all the 377/2 were returned to Southern they were restored to Southern software. And it's not a quick change either, takes a few hours to change everything over.

 

[MCR247]

So why can't you just put the SN software onto the /5s when/if they go back OR put the /5 software gradually on the rest of the units?

 

[Class377/5]

So why can't you just put the SN software onto the /5s when/if they go back OR put the /5 software gradually on the rest of the units?

Because Southern doesn't pay for the software to be altered to include calling patterns of services that only FCC will only benefit. And FCC won't pay to have the testing done to make sure that the single voltage units and three car units are fully working with the new version software as that won't benefit them. So in the end you get a Southern software and an FCC software but because no-one wants to pay to see what happens they won't be tested and therefore won't be allowed out on the line.

 

[O L Leigh]

I appreciate we're diverging somewhat from the 317s, but it was somewhat disconcering to see a chap in a Bombardier jacket (fitter?) walking with the driver to the cab this morning.

They're just meeting the trains at the moment to check that there are no problems with the SDO. It's all very routine.

O L Leigh