Is any TOC more hated by its customers than Southeastern?

[SF-02]

Right Im a driver for se. In answer to an earlier question about holding the stopping service.on the Greenwich line for the gillingham services well its quite simply because its a semi fast. If you stick it behind a stopper by the time it gets to gillingham or the cross it will be well down on time. The problem with maintenance is that all the fitters (metro) are based slade green now instead of individual depots so they have to travel from there to any other depot to fix any issues. If its not possible the train gets cancelled its as simple as that. Ive had to lock coaches out and take the train to dartford because its nearer to slade green and they wont travel to cannon to fix it. We get cheesed off aswell. I had a five car instead of a ten car a few weeks back. It was chaos. Who got it in the neck. ...Me. Dont blame the drivers just because we are the first point of call. We Dont go in and say oh i fancy a 4 car today. We Dont decide we just have to put up with it. They've also changed the fire regs but not going into that as still find it strange.

Can I just thank you as you are the first person in months who has actually given the reason for many of the problems - that being fitters at Slade Green. What was there thinking for that and will it change as it just isn't working?

Secondly I never blame the drivers or station staff who are often trying hard and seem just as ****ed off. It must be really hard for you guys. The management have let everyone down badly.
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Yep, I was one of the hordes at Herne Hill. I have had three short formations
( 4 car 465s twice, 5 car 375 once) in the past week at evening peak. It seems like a sudden collapse - what is going on? Anything to do with the leaf fall?

Doubt it's that. The sudden rise in short form happened months ago on the Greenwich line. Maybe just extending to your line now for whatever reason. Maybe the problem with fitters mentioned above has got bigger as that scheme has progressed?

 

[Southern]

Yep, I was one of the hordes at Herne Hill. I have had three short formations
( 4 car 465s twice, 5 car 375 once) in the past week at evening peak. It seems like a sudden collapse - what is going on? Anything to do with the leaf fall?

Did you see the police in the underpass? Helping the FCC inspector with ticket checks I imagine, a bit of an odd time to do these considering it was rush hour. Thought I caught sight of more police at Penge East.

 

[Electrostar]

As people with an interest in the railways we can sometimes understand operational problems and knock-on effects that many commuters don't. I think we also want to see the best in the railways. But as a Southeastern commuter I can honestly it is a terrible company. It's being compared to Connex and any good that was put in place by shadow franchise Southeastern Train (SET) has been undone.

There seems to be a flippant attitude ethos from the company hierarchy towards both passengers and the poor staff who have to deal with them. I would love to see the MD take part in Undercover Boss to see the realities of his decisions on the workforce and commuters.

The short-formation of stock is beyond the joke. If you're lucky you receive a recorded apology but never a reason as to why so many units are out of service and when they'll be back on the mainline. Commuters hear all sorts of rumours about Southeastern not getting fined for short-forming trains and not bothering to repair units. At least here on this forum we've had a driver tell us many problems are down to the single location of fitters.

Short-formations often hit the same service for a week at a time, so if it's likely to be a big repair job then why not tell people on the Monday that it's likely to occur all week? Give them the chance to catch an earlier or later service and thus spread out the overload of passengers. And can we have some consistency with platform stops. When stock is short-formed over a week you can guarantee on the Monday and Tuesday it will stop at the 4-car stop and the next day at the 6 or 8 car stop. Cue more irate passengers running up and down the platform.

Does anyone know what is causing the majority of faults? I know the Networkers are getting on a bit but they've had several refurbishments, yet still they can't be maintained to the optimum. The Class 465s and 466s are dirty and regular run with seats missing cushions.

Then there are the basic courtesies that would go a long way to ease frustrations. For example, lots of peak London-bound commuters on the Orpington line now change to the Underground at Brixton due to the TfL works at Victoria. It's a battle to touch-out your Oyster and get through the exit at the best of times at Brixton but this is compounded by regular inspections by Southeastern's Revenue Protection Officers who think nothing of delaying passengers alighting from late-running services even longer. Surely if the train is delayed you should step aside to allow passengers the chance to make up time rather than delaying them further by insisting on ticket checks?

Southeastern also know most of its passengers aren't political enough to organise a sit-in or active enough to write to their MP. Instead they roll their eyes, get a bit angry, ask people to move down the carriage and tut till the next day.

Twitter has helped the cause. The @_southeastern unofficial profile is brilliant. You get to see just how many different types of people are fed up to the back teeth of Southeastern and just how poor the company is it at communicating with passengers.

The official app is a joke. It will clearly show a line as running a normal service but you have to check the next screen to discover a cancellation. Surely by cancelling trains you can't be running a normal service? But sadly for Southeasten, cancellations are the norm.

I think the only hope we have of change is for new management or a new franchisee. Perhaps the rumours of a RENFE take over of Go Ahead can't come soon enough.

 

[stanley T]

Did you see the police in the underpass? Helping the FCC inspector with ticket checks I imagine, a bit of an odd time to do these considering it was rush hour. Thought I caught sight of more police at Penge East.

No, I changed from a train in from Blackfriars, having had the fun on Thameslink a few days before... not a good week.

 

[tbtc]

Presumably one of the problems here is that if a TOC has a captive market (so 100% of the ORCATS money from London to Dover) and a significant number of passengers hold season tickets then there's no "loss" to the TOC if they only run a train with half the coaches.

There really needs to be a way round this, so there's some carrot/stick that ensures fewer short formed trains

 

[ainsworth74]

There really needs to be a way round this, so there's some carrot/stick that ensures fewer short formed trains

Some sort of system like they have up in Scotland for Scotrail? But rather than covering the cleanliness of stations it covers the service provision. So if Southeastern put out a 4-car train rather than an 8-car they get fined or if they cancel a service for reasons within their control (which would include unit failure but not include say suicides or signalling/power failures) they get a heavier fine. The only time these requirements are lifted would be perhaps if the DfT decide that it would be impossible for them to actually meet the targets for instance during periods of heavy snow when more units than normal might be out of action due to damage.

Just a thought.

 

[tbtc]

Some sort of system like they have up in Scotland for Scotrail? But rather than covering the cleanliness of stations it covers the service provision. So if Southeastern put out a 4-car train rather than an 8-car they get fined or if they cancel a service for reasons within their control (which would include unit failure but not include say suicides or signalling/power failures) they get a heavier fine. The only time these requirements are lifted would be perhaps if the DfT decide that it would be impossible for them to actually meet the targets for instance during periods of heavy snow when more units than normal might be out of action due to damage.

Just a thought.

That sounds like a good idea; there needs to be some incentive to encourage services to be maintained at the "correct" length (or penalty for not doing so).

It appears that Southeastern can get away with running short formed services, since they'll keep all the revenue (and not have to pay out any compensation for cancelled services) - maybe the Scotrail contract is the template that could be used?

 

[ainsworth74]

That sounds like a good idea; there needs to be some incentive to encourage services to be maintained at the "correct" length (or penalty for not doing so).

Yes it's fairly easy to come up with a stick, the carrot on the other hand...

What do Scotrail get for meeting their targets?

 

[tbtc]

Yes it's fairly easy to come up with a stick, the carrot on the other hand...

What do Scotrail get for meeting their targets?

I think this kind of thing needs sorting out at the start of a franchise. If you insist that certain hoops are jumped through at the beginning then you can fine TOCs for non-compliance etc.

Trying to "move the goalposts" once a TOC is suddenly a lot more expensive (like the attempts to get Oyster implemented in London area TOCs)

 

[ainsworth74]

I think this kind of thing needs sorting out at the start of a franchise. If you insist that certain hoops are jumped through at the beginning then you can fine TOCs for non-compliance etc.

Trying to "move the goalposts" once a TOC is suddenly a lot more expensive (like the attempts to get Oyster implemented in London area TOCs)

Of course and not only would it be expensive but you could even say it's a bit unfair on the TOC's management.

I'm not sure how widespread we'd want a system like this to go however as it is very prescriptive which is of course something we're supposedly not in favour of and trying to move away from. Personally I don't have an issue with TOCs like Southeastern, c2c and FCC having very tightly prescribed franchises as I don't think there is really much room for innovation on those routes (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). But I'm not sure I'd want to see it somewhere like FGW or Northern, where perhaps there is room for innovation that tight DfT prescription would stifle.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Operators get fined for short formations - around £500 per missing set , per peak. (as measured against the capacity plan)

 

[HH]

I think the only hope we have of change is for new management or a new franchisee. Perhaps the rumours of a RENFE take over of Go Ahead can't come soon enough.

Excellent post, but I didn't want to repeat it all. The fact is that the management at SE will remain largely unchanged and that's been bad for a very long while.

I remember a story from back in SET days. The bidder's representatives were being shown around a depot by the depot manager, when the walk took them under a bridge. One of the bidders commented that this looked dangerous, which was poo-pooed by the DM. As they walked under the bridge a group of youths stared dropping bricks on them. Good job they were wearing hard hats.

I did a survey of their stations at this time and found that standards varied wildly. I came to the conclusion that there was no quality culture at all (not in safety, customer service or anything else). Sometimes you just had a very good local manager and got lucky.

I'm also convinced that Go Ahead were a poor second best for the Franchise - only picked because First had already been awarded FCC & FGW. First were seen as the only competent bidder by SET Directors at the time.

Would have been better for everyone if First (really Dean Finch) had not paid through the nose to retain FGW, and had gotten SE instead.
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Operators get fined for short formations - around £500 per missing set , per peak. (as measured against the capacity plan)

I don't think that's right. It used to be true in the first set of Franchises, but the current model works on targets and breaching targets leads to remedial actions, and in the worst case could lead to taking away the Franchise.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

no quality culture at all (not in safety

Do you actually have any verifiable evidence for the fact South Eastern Trains are not operating safely, or is it just hot air?

 

[Class2ldn]

Can i just add in response to the comment about where the trains stop. If say a train is due to be a six car and we are given a 4 car then we will stop at the monitors in relation to how many coaches we have on that service regardless of where it should be. If you start mixing it up and not stopping on the correct marks,further down the route it could backfire especially if you do the same trip the next day and then have say a six car but forget because the previous day we had a 4 car. If we stop on the four car we now have two coaches hanging out the platform and an instant suspension and breath test etc. I do agree its very annoying because the info systems seem to just announce what it should be rather be then what it always is. On the side of safety i can't really fault them. When it comes to faults sometimes we have to do stuff which isolate safety systems and they wont under any situation have any passengers on a train with a safety system isolated. Its for the passengers protection. If the brake starts to drag we have to isolated the brake on that coach. Do you really want to be on that train with less brakes then it should?? Doubt it. Its a pain having to leave your train i know but its for the reason of safety. I do feel for the passengers and believe me most of the drivers are on your side as we are out there with you, not the management. Can i just add that it would help speed things up if people didn't run half way down the train to get there favourite door lol. We have a wait time of 30 seconds time at each station give or take. Our timings especially in the rush hour are tight so help us to help you get to work. If the door you want is packed move down but not just because you feel like being somewhere different. If your late and end up coming in the back end Dont expect us to wait for you to run the length of ten cars because you normally wait at the front. Just get in the train Grr lol. Hope that helps.

 

[SF-02]

Can i just add in response to the comment about where the trains stop. If say a train is due to be a six car and we are given a 4 car then we will stop at the monitors in relation to how many coaches we have on that service regardless of where it should be. If you start mixing it up and not stopping on the correct marks,further down the route it could backfire especially if you do the same trip the next day and then have say a six car but forget because the previous day we had a 4 car. If we stop on the four car we now have two coaches hanging out the platform and an instant suspension and breath test etc. I do agree its very annoying because the info systems seem to just announce what it should be rather be then what it always is. On the side of safety i can't really fault them. When it comes to faults sometimes we have to do stuff which isolate safety systems and they wont under any situation have any passengers on a train with a safety system isolated. Its for the passengers protection. If the brake starts to drag we have to isolated the brake on that coach. Do you really want to be on that train with less brakes then it should?? Doubt it. Its a pain having to leave your train i know but its for the reason of safety. I do feel for the passengers and believe me most of the drivers are on your side as we are out there with you, not the management. Can i just add that it would help speed things up if people didn't run half way down the train to get there favourite door lol. We have a wait time of 30 seconds time at each station give or take. Our timings especially in the rush hour are tight so help us to help you get to work. If the door you want is packed move down but not just because you feel like being somewhere different. If your late and end up coming in the back end Dont expect us to wait for you to run the length of ten cars because you normally wait at the front. Just get in the train Grr lol. Hope that helps.

What you do with regards to stopping does not always happen with other drivers. I have seen drivers of 4 coach trains in the rush hours not stop at the 4 coaches line but 6/8/10 coach part a few times. Both at London Bridge and stations on the Greenwich line. I guess this is because there can be hundreds of people waiting for what could have been up to a 10 coach service, and so they would all be rushing back down which can be dangerous and hold up the train.

I've never been asked to leave a train for safety checks, or seen it. Would you agree that the increase in short trains is down to a lack of fitters stationed across the network and instead all being in one location now as mentioned above, and ball bearing problems on networkers I read about today. If so any idea of what's going to happen in the coming months?

 

[Class2ldn]

The only reason the drivers go further down is because the people at the back wont rush to the front to moan to the driver but the ones who have to walk back to the 4 car will lol. In relation to the fitters i Dont think its the major factor but it certainly doesn't help. To be honest we are in the dark as much as you really. The networkers are being refurbished so they have to go off and they haven't really got the spares to be honest. Train faults could be anything. If a drivers heater in the cab doesn't work or the wipers then its out of service. Things which seem minor but they will take it out of service. Obviously we need the wipers so can't say much on that one. The thing with trains is there so complex. So many things to go wrong plus the 465s are knocking on a bit but I've never had a failed train so must just be lucky. With 2012 Olympics they are hoping to run 25% more services. Hmm they struggle at the moment. If they balls it up then they will lose the franchise and seeing as they can't run the services now Im not sure they will achieve there target next year. Will be interesting to see.

 

[HH]

Do you actually have any verifiable evidence for the fact South Eastern Trains are not operating safely, or is it just hot air?

Calm down love.

I saw things with my own eyes, such as someone changing a lamp bulb up a ladder on platform on his own, in the wet, while trains were running a few feet away. Now if you think that's safe just say so. But you'll have to forgive me if I didn't whip my camera out and take a flash photo just so I could prove it to you.

This was under SET, but my point was that most of the same people are still running that railway.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

So one isolated incident is evidence of the entirety of SouthEastern operating unsafely?


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[HH]

Did I say one isolated incident? I gave an example. Sounds like I hit a nerve.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Did I say one isolated incident? I gave an example. Sounds like I hit a nerve.

I'll ask again then. Do you have any verifiable evidence that SouthEastern are operating unsafely? I'm sure a safety conscious chap like yourself if you suspected a TOC were operating unsafely as a whole would report it to the ORR.

 

[Electrostar]

My point was that on many occasions I've had a whole week where an eight car service has been shortened to a four car but each day the train would stop in a different place. One day by the 4-car monitors, the next by the 8, then back to the 4 etc. You'd presume if a train is shortened for a whole week there would be clarity in where they stop instead of making passengers guess.

 

[HH]

I'll ask again then. Do you have any verifiable evidence that SouthEastern are operating unsafely?

Are you really that dense? I'm not going to repeat myself again.

 

[TrenHotel]

My point was that on many occasions I've had a whole week where an eight car service has been shortened to a four car but each day the train would stop in a different place. One day by the 4-car monitors, the next by the 8, then back to the 4 etc. You'd presume if a train is shortened for a whole week there would be clarity in where they stop instead of making passengers guess.

I've been to sessions with Southeastern managers where this point has been made to them, but they don't understand it.

For about 18 months, even the token "this train is formed of 4/5/6/8/10 coaches" line (which only ever appeared Mon-Fri) had disappeared from the monitors. When pointed out to a senior Southeastern executive, he replied: "Really? I didn't know that." He was convinced this still appeared on the monitors.

It suddenly appeared again with the next timetable change. (And still only on Mon-Fri.)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Are you really that dense? I'm not going to repeat myself again.

It's a simple question - yes or no? No rhetoric this time - lets have some fact.

 

[HH]

It's a simple question - yes or no? No rhetoric this time - lets have some fact.

No, let's have some facts from you. Do you have verifiable evidence that southeastern now has a safety culture?

I note with interest that you never challenged that it (still) doesn't have a quality culture.

 

[AlterEgo]

No, let's have some facts from you. Do you have verifiable evidence that southeastern now has a safety culture?

I note with interest that you never challenged that it (still) doesn't have a quality culture.

Well, let's look at statistics. How many serious accidents (that could potentially result in serious injury or loss of life) have occurred on SouthEastern?

Hang on. You cannot cast negative (and potentially libellous) aspersions and make sweeping generalisations such as "SouthEastern operate unsafely" by only giving examples of one or two isolated incidents.

It is for you to prove your assertion rather than for Ralphchadkirk to provide evidence to refute it.

If you have serious concerns about the safety of a TOC I strongly urge you to raise the matter with the Office of Rail Regulation, who will take the matter very seriously.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I am sure that the ORR would love to hear from you. They take safety very seriously, as does every TOC.

 

[Schnellzug]

I think the only hope we have of change is for new management or a new franchisee. Perhaps the rumours of a RENFE take over of Go Ahead can't come soon enough.

The curious thing is that Go Ahead's bus operations seem to be generally fairly well regarded (well, Oxford & Brighton etc anyway; although Wilts & Dorset seem to have gone downhill a bit lately, but that's wandering from the topic.) But none of the rail operations, either now or previous ones, seem to be thought of as among the best. So why is it that go Ahead don't seem to be worried about the harm to their reputation from their poor rail services. Or is it just that, since they don't call their rail operations "Go Ahead South Eastern" and so on, they're not worried because most of the plebians probably don't know that it is owned by the Go Ahead Organisation?

 

[Electrostar]

Perfect example of Southeastern's mis-communication. The front page of its official app shows all lines running a good service. Click on any line via London Bridge and you're presented with a line problem. Click through and you find a message saying that due to a broken down train at London Bridge all services may be delayed by up to 20 minutes.

Which is it a good service or a delayed service?

They really are a joke.

 

[87015]

Interesting that thejunction reports that the 508s have only just gone off lease - and were on lease whilst stored at Donnington - which might just have helped with the overcrowding/short formations problems.