Voyagers

[western Champion]

The level of cleaning and maintenance at Central Rivers (CZ) of both Virgin's and Cross Country's voyagers is identical. I drive for VT and spend enough time there to see, where Cross Country's fleet might be let down is in the frequency they return to CZ for work and in the amount of attention they receive during journey turn rounds in the day. For example a Voyager going from Scotland to Penzance which is rammed all day long wont get the same cleaning as one which is going back and forth from New St to Euston all day with 30 minuite turn rounds at either end.

 

[scarby]

For those of you who don't know, I'm the one who did Aberdeen to Penzance on my ALR.

Good for you! That's real travelling. It must have felt great arriving there - an experience you never get from flying.

I would gladly do this, love long train journeys, but for a journey of that length I would only be prepared to do it 1st class.

 

[4SRKT]

Good for you! That's real travelling. It must have felt great arriving there - an experience you never get from flying.

I would gladly do this, love long train journeys, but for a journey of that length I would only be prepared to do it 1st class.

I did Euston to Aberdeen on the cushions on the sleeper the week before last, and I'm a bit of an old timer. 11 hours sitting down performing all manner of gymnastics to keep yr legs out of the way of the person opposite's: now that's real travelling! Only prepared to do it first class?? You want to toughen yourself up mate!

 

[Schnellzug]

The level of cleaning and maintenance at Central Rivers (CZ) of both Virgin's and Cross Country's voyagers is identical. I drive for VT and spend enough time there to see, where Cross Country's fleet might be let down is in the frequency they return to CZ for work and in the amount of attention they receive during journey turn rounds in the day. For example a Voyager going from Scotland to Penzance which is rammed all day long wont get the same cleaning as one which is going back and forth from New St to Euston all day with 30 minuite turn rounds at either end.

That's what I was wondering; they're maintained at the same depot, so could there really be this big a discrepancy in standards? Long distance cross-country services in HST or loco hauled days would always get filled up with papers, crisp packets, bits of leftover sandwich etc towards the end of a journey, that's inevitable. The curious thing seems to be this toilet question, though; do VT and XC have different maintenance regimes concerning that? it seems curious to me if they did.

 

[sprinterguy]

It appears to me that Crosscountrys' 5-car Super Voyagers are mainly deployed on the South West services, both from North East England and Manchester, if it isn't simply the case that they are nothing but illusions created to mock passengers wedged into 4-car 220 sets :

I seem to have the great misfortune of not only regularly having little choice but to travel on Voyagers, but also of regularly ending up on 4-car ones far too often: Most recently today, on the 13:03 Birmingham New Street to Bournemouth (origin Manchester), which was formed of 220008. We left New Street keeping pace side by side with one of those fabled but rarely travelled on 5-car 221s which was working the 13:03 departure to Aberdeen, just to rub salt into the wound! There's seven trains per hour between Birmingham and Coventry, and the luck of the draw just happens to see me having to catch the one of those that I would have really rather not have been on! :roll:

I observed that around 90% of the seats in standard class were occupied, rising closer to 95% after International, with a handful of people choosing to stand in the vestibules regardless of the availability of single seats due to that anti-social British habit of not wanting to sit next to anyone else. While having pretty much every seat filled on a service clearly makes the best economic sense, this was right in the middle of the off-peak lull, and while XC is not as orientated towards business travel as other Intercity operators, it's shocking to think just how full those four carriage trains get in the peaks when you have that 95-100% loading of leisure travellers plus the not insubstantial number of commuters between the provincial towns and cities added on top: If Crosscountry don't have the flexibility in their fleet to double-up the busiest services at peak times, then the Voyagers really need to be lengthened, even if this does mean carrying around a proportion of fresh air with a 65-75% loading off peak.

Though I will happily note that Crosscountrys' longer HST services do at least hit many of the major commercial centres along the XC SW-NE corridor during the peak period.

 

[CP165]

This is my view on the matter

Good Points:
- Large windows
- Quick off the mark
- No annoying automated announcements
- Ride quality (I happen to think that they're quite smooth)
Bad Points:
- Vibration/rattling (The other day on a journey from Reading to Southampton one of the coat hooks was rattleing like crazy until I decided to hang my umbrella off it)

- Not long enough
- Interior seems cheap and of low quality due some of the horrible plastics used
- Doors between seats and vestibules crush people when there's a que
- They need a complete refurbishment with a brand new high quality (non-vibrating) interior

IMO, Voyagers do have a smell, but not necessarily an unpleasent one. Just, a smell.

Cheers

 

[Blindtraveler]

well have just come off one which thankfully was only from GLc To EDB but it wasnt cleaned at all at turn around despite the set ariving on time and having a decent turn round time. TM says its normal.

 

[Schnellzug]

It appears to me that Crosscountrys' 5-car Super Voyagers are mainly deployed on the South West services, both from North East England and Manchester, if it isn't simply the case that they are nothing but illusions created to mock passengers wedged into 4-car 220 sets :

I seem to have the great misfortune of not only regularly having little choice but to travel on Voyagers, but also of regularly ending up on 4-car ones far too often: Most recently today, on the 13:03 Birmingham New Street to Bournemouth (origin Manchester), which was formed of 220008. We left New Street keeping pace side by side with one of those fabled but rarely travelled on 5-car 221s which was working the 13:03 departure to Aberdeen, just to rub salt into the wound! There's seven trains per hour between Birmingham and Coventry, and the luck of the draw just happens to see me having to catch the one of those that I would have really rather not have been on! :roll:

I observed that around 90% of the seats in standard class were occupied, rising closer to 95% after International, with a handful of people choosing to stand in the vestibules regardless of the availability of single seats due to that anti-social British habit of not wanting to sit next to anyone else. While having pretty much every seat filled on a service clearly makes the best economic sense, this was right in the middle of the off-peak lull, and while XC is not as orientated towards business travel as other Intercity operators, it's shocking to think just how full those four carriage trains get in the peaks when you have that 95-100% loading of leisure travellers plus the not insubstantial number of commuters between the provincial towns and cities added on top: If Crosscountry don't have the flexibility in their fleet to double-up the busiest services at peak times, then the Voyagers really need to be lengthened, even if this does mean carrying around a proportion of fresh air with a 65-75% loading off peak.

Though I will happily note that Crosscountrys' longer HST services do at least hit many of the major commercial centres along the XC SW-NE corridor during the peak period.

can XC really be blamed for this, though, since they didn't have much choice but to inherit the fleet from Virgin? And remembering that a proportion of the 221s were hived off to VWC. One of the first things they did after they took over, after all, was to get back as many HSTs as they could from far and wide.

 

[sprinterguy]

can XC really be blamed for this, though, since they didn't have much choice but to inherit the fleet from Virgin? And remembering that a proportion of the 221s were hived off to VWC. One of the first things they did after they took over, after all, was to get back as many HSTs as they could from far and wide.

I wasn't attempting to apportion blame to Crosscountry, merely attracting attention to some recent observations I have made regarding XCs' Voyager operated services, which outlines some of there worst shortcomings; principally, of them being too short and there being not enough of them to allow more doubled up services to operate, which is the unhappy situation that XC have been lumbered with.

 

[Blindtraveler]

going marginally OT Here one wonders if now DB is in charge of Grand Central if they woant try lay there hands on some of the unallocated (to my knolege anyway) 180s and turn GC into an entirely Adilantay opperation with HSTs transfered to XC? If this happens or if its even a possabilitty id love to see0aberdeen see an HST working.

 

[shaun]

I agree and personally can't understand how anyone other than those with a case of "if it's older it's better" syndrome can honestly say the HST experience is better.

Well the HST experience is much better. Interiors aside, the silence of the Mk3 coach is one of the bonuses. Also the ride quality (although perhaps not on MML) is comparable with voyagers, i've rarely had a rough ride on a HST. For me its the quietness, smoothness and feeling of personal space that i like about HSTs/Mk3s. It's not exclusive to HSTs though, i also especially really enjoy travelling on Class 175/180s, Mk4s, 442s and 444s as well! The HST is just simply the best Inter-City train out there, still after almost 40 years. The closest to building a modern replacement we've got is the Class 180, if that didn't have underfloor engines and reliability issues it might just about do the job!

 

[DarloRich]

As much as they are an improvement on Voyagers, I have started to avoid Meridians as well on STP-DBY jaunts. Grab a Nottingham HST, and change at East Midlands Parkway for the soon to follow Meridian. Benefits of this system, thus:

1) It's an HST for most of the journey

2) More chance of a seat on a Notts service

3) It's an HST for most of the journey

4) East Mids to Derby = 15 mins or so of overcrowding vice 1.5-2hrs if joined at STP.

5) It's an HST for most of the journey

6) Quieter journey

Oh, and for the most part, you're on an HST.

And you get to visit the only power station in the country with an attached railway station, oh and you get an HST for most of the way! Which is a good thing!

 

[IanXC]

going marginally OT Here one wonders if now DB is in charge of Grand Central if they woant try lay there hands on some of the unallocated (to my knolege anyway) 180s and turn GC into an entirely Adilantay opperation with HSTs transfered to XC? If this happens or if its even a possabilitty id love to see0aberdeen see an HST working.

I find the return of 180102 to service, with Grand Central intriguing when considered alongside this idea.

Is there any actual confirmation of the 5 spare 180s entering service with FGW? Someone posted a few weeks ago stating that DfT would allow the 180s to go to whoever (TOC or OA) paid the most.

The closest to building a modern replacement we've got is the Class 180, if that didn't have underfloor engines and reliability issues it might just about do the job!

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Blindtraveler]

so in other words Ian we think the same language on this one! one does wonder about FGW as surely by now if service strengthaning was going to take place on some runs at or not long after 12 December theyd be shouting about it very loudly by now?

How many HSTs would be freed if GC went to 180s totally? is it 3? Or more? 2, with a 3rd spare should certainly be deddicated to ABD - PNZ if this happens!

 

[Train wasp]

Having traveled on a XC Voyager the other week from Winchester to Basingstoke I noticed how dirty the interior of unit was. I also noticed it’s about time the interior fabric trim needs replacing. Some of the seat base trims have become worn out.

Maybe someone can answer a question for me. I traveled from Winchester to Basingstoke without having my ticket checked on board the XC Voyager. If XC doesn’t know I’ve traveled on their service how do they receive payment for my usage of their service.

Thanks

 

[sprinterguy]

How many HSTs would be freed if GC went to 180s totally? is it 3? Or more? 2, with a 3rd spare should certainly be deddicated to ABD - PNZ if this happens!

Three HSTs, but they're shorter than the existing XC sets, so I wouldn't consider putting them on the longest Crosscountry runs. XC would have to convert a FO into a TSO to even begin to bring them in line with their other five HST sets (Using all the available GC mark 3s to form 2+6 sets), and even then the catering vehicle would still be wrong for XCs' requirements.

 

[Robinson]

Hmmm... for what it's worth I have to say 2 things:

1) I rather like the Voyagers; however,
2) I generally avoid XC if possible; Virgin imo are much better. Less of an overcrowding issue, shops retained, and generally cleaner.

 

[Schnellzug]

Having traveled on a XC Voyager the other week from Winchester to Basingstoke I noticed how dirty the interior of unit was. I also noticed it’s about time the interior fabric trim needs replacing. Some of the seat base trims have become worn out.

Maybe someone can answer a question for me. I traveled from Winchester to Basingstoke without having my ticket checked on board the XC Voyager. If XC doesn’t know I’ve traveled on their service how do they receive payment for my usage of their service.

Thanks

I think there's a sort of formula that divides revenue between operators depending on how many trains they run, or something of that order. It would be more accurate if they counted how many passengers were actually carried, which should be possible if they had some means of counting each ticket that was checked, I'd have thought.
This might also encourage operators to reduce crowding, to make it a bit easier for guards to check Tickets.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Three HSTs, but they're shorter than the existing XC sets, so I wouldn't consider putting them on the longest Crosscountry runs. XC would have to convert a FO into a TSO to even begin to bring them in line with their other five HST sets (Using all the available GC mark 3s to form 2+6 sets), and even then the catering vehicle would still be wrong for XCs' requirements.

agreed there'd be challenges but still possible and on a PR basis it would be a good move for them - introducing more appropriate stock onto there longest run. Cant see there being any trubble with timings or certainly not as far as BHM but unsure after that.

 

[Lrd]

I think there's a sort of formula that divides revenue between operators depending on how many trains they run, or something of that order. It would be more accurate if they counted how many passengers were actually carried, which should be possible if they had some means of counting each ticket that was checked, I'd have thought.
This might also encourage operators to reduce crowding, to make it a bit easier for guards to check Tickets.

It's called ORCATS (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services). Wiki says this. Also, a breif explanation in this article. I don't know much about it, someone else will be along shortly I expect.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Personally, I love the Voyagers, they're stylish!

HSTs are everywhere now, it's untrue! Voyagers are different! I only get one a day by me though!

 

[AlterEgo]

HSTs are everywhere now, it's untrue! Voyagers are different!

You what??

 

[sprinterguy]

You what??

Exactly! HSTs have stuck to the same operating areas and routes since the early eighties, and the Voyagers are (unfortunately) operated by the most widespread Intercity operator in the UK and as such appear all over the place, from Penzance and Southampton to Aberdeen!

 

[jon0844]

For those of you who don't know, I'm the one who did Aberdeen to Penzance on my ALR.

You either raised loads of money for charity, or did it to win a load of money in a bet.

 

[IanXC]

You either raised loads of money for charity, or did it to win a load of money in a bet.

I wish I had! Nah just did it because I could! Quite enjoyed it actually!

 

[RichW1]

I went on the classic lines in france on their classic IC's linking the smaller destinations with larger ones as you'd expect with their TGV's doing the major IC traffic and although they're incredibly slow....god they're smooth!!

Talking of Voyagers and even Pendolino's for that matter....they have a lot to answer for. There's tracks and a train...I do not believe it is beyond the wit of skilled people in the UK to engineer a smooth ride like those on the continent.

Voyagers make me so p****d off. They're rattly, smell, and too short. I also (at the advice of someone on here that I can't remember as it was a while ago) had a ride on a Pendolino to go and see family instead of taking the car and I was shocked at how bumpy it was and it sounded also like the bogies were hitting the underside of the coach (I know they weren't I'm just saying that was how it sounded and felt so I don't know what the technical issue was there). So disappointing. Come on Network rail and maintenance industry....this surely shouldn't be happening.

 

[junglejames]

I agree and personally can't understand how anyone other than those with a case of "if it's older it's better" syndrome can honestly say the HST experience is better.

Chairs on hst have no upper head.support, they have a massive immovable arm rest and the chairs often lean when you move forward.

No power sockets.

A strange push pull feeling which for me is worse than engine noise. I assume it's because it doesnt move as one unit.

The lighting is not great.

Doors are a nightmare for anyone with children.

Doors between vestibules and cabins tend to open randomly which causes the draft from windows.

Toilets don't stink - but they're horrible little things!

I love hst as I grew up with them and they are a great testiment to great engineering. But for (normal - real non people on train forum people) passengers they aren't the best out there.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Once again, someone has to claim only enthusiasts like HSTs, and only those that think older is better etc etc. Why cant it just be that they are better in some peoples eyes?
Lets go through your points. Seats- A lot more comfortable, and smarter looking than Meridians. Compared to voyagers, well there is no comparison. Armrests which are the right thickness, so you can actually rest your arm on them. Meridians are OK, but voyagers' armrests are too narrow. Your arm will always roll off.
Toilets- Horrible little things? I never have a problem using them for what they are designed for. I dont want to swing a cat around in one. Also, you have nice natural light coming in. The toilets feel larger and nicer because of that.
Sometimes a push pull feeling, but very rarely. Nothing compared to the constant engine noise and vibration. Voyagers/ Meridians rattle like nobodies business.
Outside Doors can be a nuisance for some people, admittedly.
Vestibule doors which actually open wiothout you touching them, so if you have 2 hands full of luggage (or if you are carrying a child), the door will open without you needing to put your luggage or child down to press a button. They very rarely open randomly. There is usually a reason for it.

So, as you can see, there are plenty of reasons why people prefer HSTs, and it has nowt to do with them being older.

 

[merlodlliw]

Exactly! HSTs have stuck to the same operating areas and routes since the early eighties, and the Voyagers are (unfortunately) operated by the most widespread Intercity operator in the UK and as such appear all over the place, from Penzance and Southampton to Aberdeen!

The only HST now seen in North Wales is painted yellow,since Beardy got rid of the trio up here


Bob

 

[WestCoast]

Vestibule doors which actually open wiothout you touching them, so if you have 2 hands full of luggage (or if you are carrying a child), the door will open without you needing to put your luggage or child down to press a button. They very rarely open randomly. There is usually a reason for it.

There are sensors on the floor, so if someone leaves luggage hanging off the bottom rack by the door or in the vestibule, it stays open. Probably one of the reasons why they changed to 'press to open' doors.

I do like HSTs though, in terms of travelling experience they are probably still the best type of rolling stock on the British rails.

 

[Schnellzug]

the trouble with those pressure mat operated doors is that anyone in the vestibule steepping on it will open it, so they tend to fly back & forth randomly, that's the trouble with they. Trouble is that if you have buttons, the buttons tend to be rather fiddly; though Desiros are probably worse, where they have touch sensitive buttons, and you know how touch sensitive buttons are rarely very sensitive, so you usually have to give them a hefty thump.