Northern 180s to be withdrawn by 03/12

[richw]

I don't get you. As far as the roumors on here and FGW coffe shop have been going, FGW would use 5 180s on a few Cotswolds line services (not the whole lot, they wouldn't have enough 180s) with the units working in pairs (ie. a 10-car set) on the busier sections nearer London.

my point is that 2 cars can probably cope with off peak demand between Reading and Exeter.

your comment "Maybe, but would a 5-car 180 cope east of Newbury/Reading since the service I'm disscussing would go through to Paddington"

My thoughts is that these 5 cars are going to be coping with reading Paddington demand whether they are going Cotswolds or Exeter. so at some point on their route they will have to cope with low demand then high demand for the last 30 mins.

5 cars on Exeter Paddington will be under capacity for the first 80% of the journey then over crowded last 20%.
Perhaps operating set down on the up, and pick up on the down at Reading will solve this problem

 

[Nym]

Oh this is easy to solve, you can have through journies and the ability to cope with loadings, don't advertise the service as calling westbound at Reading and maybe not even Newbury, have these as pickup/setdown only services.

But yeah... Overall I recon the 180s should be used on the B&H Line for Exeter / Taunton semi fasts from Reading / Paddington with some loading controls in place to prevent London - Reading Passengers knackering up the works should they be extended into Paddington from Reading. It's somthing they'd be suited to, since IIRC theres a bit of 110/125 on the B&H line?

Either way, this is going to be the route with the most 100mph+ running, in the biggest requirement of LDPE / LDIR Stock, with the least amount of diesel under wires running. Unlike other routes on the GW that are wired until Oxford, Swindon, Cardiff (And if Cornish services run via Bristol) Penzance. The services running via these destinations to be served by Electrodiesel Stock rather than Diesel stock.

And of course, with my current view on the Bi Mode Hitachi SET I wouldn't want it to be these, seeing the bi-mode part of the project scrapped and the carrages made a more sensible 23m long to fit within the C3 Guage profile (the same as Mk3s) and become an EMU Capable of easilly being hauled by locomotives, with ETH supplyable either from said locomotive or backup generator (NOT USED TO GENERATE TRACTION CURRENT, ONLY ETH!) so that ETH is availale in wires down.
Said locomotive could work in push pull with either driving cab.

The EDMU Requirements of the GW where changing from Electric to Diesel will not have much space and will need to be done rather quickly will be forfilled by the conversion of the 222 fleet cascaded by the electrification of the Midland Mainline, extra 180s provided from TPE Electrification and Electric SETs being provided to FHT. When additional EDMU capacity is required, this can be provided by the electrification of core XC services, wiring from Oxford to Coventry first, releasing 8 Class 220 units, then, combined with parts of the GW Electrification, Birmingham to Bristol. and finally, Birmgham to Reading.
If additional units are required at time 0 for the GW EDMU requirement, additional 220 units can be cascaded from XC by cascading 221 units displaced by additional 390 units from ICWC, resulting in about 10 220 units and the 27 222 units with GW at time 0 of moving from HST to EDMU / EMU SET operation. All these 222 and 220 units would be extended by some cars, either 1, 2 or 3 to become EDMUs, the same treatment to XC's fleet and the ICWC fleet to make the entire 22x fleet into the 22(x+5) fleet? 226, 227, 228? As EDMUs..

Personally I'd say.
4 car - 5 or 6 car, depending on the amount of time off wires at >110
5 car - 7 car
7 car - 10 car

Possible reforms so that 6 car units can become 8 or 9 car units. But 10 car 'Jumbo' units would come in handy for the far end of the GW Network that needs a lot of capacity.
PS: SDO is natively supported on the 222 fleet so it's also suitable for operation over the kemble link etc.

With these 27 222 and 10 220 units available by only electrifying the MML and ordering additional 390 units for ICWC there would be no need for a Bi-Mode SET. Especially if wires are exteneded to Swansea.

Wires are likely to be extended to Aberdeen and possibly Inverness soon anyway. If the SET provided loco haulage as an option ICEC could use this, or sacrifice some or all of the inital allocation of 220 units to ICGW to ICEC for use on the top of scotland and other off wires services (Hull would be wired as part of TPE N), Aberdeen wired soon aswell (Proberbly by 2025 at the latest) leaving only Harrogate (May be wired soon) and Inverness, and Lincoln if it's added as off wires services. 10 6 car units that could leave the cross coupled and split on route would do just fine for ICEC.

When GW do need more capacity, this could then be provided by electrification of the GW, XC (Oxford - Coventry) or other parts of the network to release 221 or 220 units, with the preference always being sending 220 units to other operators.

Idealy, additional 390 (or 391 units) would be designed to be Pull Pull operable with a locomotive for services beyond Crewe / Chester. Then all 221s to XC, released 21 220s or 221s stright away for GW/EC.

Anyway, off topic enough yet?

 

[driver9000]

With the large number of 150s now at Newton Heath a pair (113+116) have been released to traffic enabling 180106 to be stopped. This leaves 180103 to soldier on alone until 2 December. It will be mainly found on the Hazel Grove diagram.

180106 last worked in service on 27 October working the 07:18 Blackpool North-Manchester Victoria although it failed at Preston. It was left on Blackpool North depot until being moved to NH over the weekend.

 

[northwichcat]

It may look like a large number of 150s now but it won't for long given two more of the 156s and the subleased units (3x180s/LM 153/ATW 150) are going.

 

[driver9000]

It may look like a large number of 150s now but it won't for long given two more of the 156s and the subleased units (3x180s/LM 153/ATW 150) are going.

I know. By large number I was trying to imply that currently they are sitting on the depot post delivery waiting to enter traffic. 180106 failing was convenient as it got another 2 units into service. Naturally once the transfer outs are finished their number won't look so large but the amount of green seen on Newton Heath has been impressive. They certainly stand out.

My initial thoughts were that none of them would enter service until December, obviously this hasn't been the case given that at least 5 are in service.

 

[northwichcat]

My initial thoughts were that none of them would enter service until December, obviously this hasn't been the case given that at least 5 are in service.

I always thought at least 4 would enter service before December as Northern couldn't keep EMT waiting for the 4 extra 156s one of which is needed to be able to implement a Norwich extension of a Nottingham service, which they obviously don't want to do two weeks after a timetable change.

 

[driver9000]

Should 180103 make it to 2 December and stay on the Hazel Grove diagram (given that it gets priority allocation), the very last Northern 180 worked service should be 19:28 Manchester Victoria-Blackpool North on 2 December.

This will be known for definite nearer the time.

 

[shaun]

Class 180s IMO are the closest we have got to building a proper Inter-city DMU. Internally and externally they look the part - lots of legroom, comfortable fairly sized seats, lots of window seats, buffet. Shame they are just not reliable enough, as really they are the sort of trains Virgin should have ordered for XC, along with push-pull versions for the longer-distance services.

 

[snail]

Class 180s IMO are the closest we have got to building a proper Inter-city DMU. Internally and externally they look the part - lots of legroom, comfortable fairly sized seats, lots of window seats, buffet. Shame they are just not reliable enough, as really they are the sort of trains Virgin should have ordered for XC, along with push-pull versions for the longer-distance services.

Yes, and they would have been ideal for the TPE Scotland services also, particularly with the decent sized FC coach. I've spent many happy minutes in there trundling between Preston and Manchester as an antidote to the 185s!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, and they would have been ideal for the TPE Scotland services also, particularly with the decent sized FC coach. I've spent many happy minutes in there trundling between Preston and Manchester as an antidote to the 185s!

They would have also been far better than the 185's on the long distance First TPE North services to Newcastle and to Middlesbrough. I am sure the usual waiting peak period contingents at Huddersfield (AM) and Leeds (PM) would rather have seen the 180's rather than the 3-car 185's.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Hopefully I can get one tommorow. Planning to pick up the 13:22 Manchester - Blackpool at Bolton. If I do it will be my first sucessful attempt at getting a 180. The 3 times I tried when they were with FGW one was cancelled, one was a 166 instead and one was running so late that I had to catch another train as I'd have missed my last connection.

 

[Geeves]

With the large number of 150s now at Newton Heath a pair (113+116) have been released to traffic enabling 180106 to be stopped. This leaves 180103 to soldier on alone until 2 December. It will be mainly found on the Hazel Grove diagram.

180106 last worked in service on 27 October working the 07:18 Blackpool North-Manchester Victoria although it failed at Preston. It was left on Blackpool North depot until being moved to NH over the weekend.

When I came into work this morning at Vic 2x150 ex Blackpool N (08:45) went up to NH to be swapped for a 180. It never happened in the end as the Blackpool driver didn't sign them, so the 150s came back! It would have worked the 09:22 and the various diagrams that follow.

Also to add a 180 passed through Vic on Sunday afternoon heading to Blackpool ECS (106). So perhaps two are still in service? I have no idea.

 

[RAPC]

Should 180103 make it to 2 December and stay on the Hazel Grove diagram (given that it gets priority allocation), the very last Northern 180 worked service should be 19:28 Manchester Victoria-Blackpool North on 2 December.

Thanks for the info. 180103 was sounding a bit ill (but it does semi-regularly) yesterday on the peak morning service to Hazel Grove, so a month without issues may be a stretch.

Daft as it sounds, the 3 sets all seemed to have their own quirks from a passenger perspective. Whether that was being in reverse (108), sounding grumpy most mornings (103) or having the air conditioning continuously cranked to sub zero (106), we'll definitely miss them, even if Northern won't from a reliability perspective.

 

[driver9000]

If there was an ECS move on Sunday it can't have got very far. The Victoria diagram has been the same LM 150s all week including Monday.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They'll go in to maintenance before being returned to have things like the guard door controlled changed back to be driver door control and to try and ensure they don't break down on their journey home.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the terms of the exact conditions set in the short-term lease for the specific refurbishment requirements to be carried out prior to their return and who it might be will be carrying out this work?

I remember reading in Modern Railways some months ago of a company who were carrying out such type of end-contract refurbishment work and were submitting reports to the original lessees of the defects that were revealed during those examinations.

 

[northwichcat]

I think it'll be difficult to anyone to answer that Paul Sidorczuk. The sublease was originally drawn up between Northern and NXEC. NXEC planned to refurbish the units after Northern had used them before putting them on the new Lincoln service, so I don't think NXEC would have minded if the interiors weren't in brilliant condition on return. However, NXEC no longer exist and the units will not go to replacement company EC so the terms may well have changed.

 

[driver9000]

Daft as it sounds, the 3 sets all seemed to have their own quirks from a passenger perspective. Whether that was being in reverse (108), sounding grumpy most mornings (103) or having the air conditioning continuously cranked to sub zero (106), we'll definitely miss them, even if Northern won't from a reliability perspective.

They do from a drivers point of view too.

 

[ainsworth74]

They do from a drivers point of view too.

What are the quirks from the drivers point of view or are the same as the passengers?

 

[driver9000]

What are the quirks from the drivers point of view or are the same as the passengers?

The 3 of them were different to each other. 103 was always the fastest, 106 was average and 108 was always the slowest and least reliable.

When the auxiliaries on 103 and 106 are tripped all the lighting goes out, but on 108 they only dropped to emergency level. I was told this was something to do with running in the Severn tunnel - can't remember the reason now though.

103 was prone to reporting engines shutting down on the TMS when in reality you were at full chat with all 5 running! 106 has a call for aid in the MF that would go off when it pleased along with a Vigilance alarm that would sound nearly every time you came to a stand, it also had no audible ATP tones when setting the desk up. 108 would often throw up false TMS faults, the most common one being a pressure fault for the bogies of one of the driving cars as well as going into cross feeding for no reason at all. 180106s PIS is full of SWT automatic announcements for some reason and the pre recorded list for delays etc doesn't match what actually gets played, 103 and 108 have GW final destinations only.


On another note, the information I gave yesterday in good faith needs to be changed. It seems 180106 has been put back into traffic working on the Hazel Grove diagram while 180103 has been stopped. I'm not sure what is going on but there is still only one 180 in service. The Victoria diagram is once again being covered by London Midland 150113+150116.

 

[Pumbaa]

They sound hilarious. Never a dull moment working them?!

 

[tbtc]

They sound hilarious. Never a dull moment working them?!

They sound like the railway version of the T69 Midland Metro trams...

 

[driver9000]

They sound hilarious. Never a dull moment working them?!

To be honest, when they work they are amazing. When they go wrong they can be horrible.

 

[RAPC]

To be honest, when they work they are amazing. When they go wrong they can be horrible.

As a passenger I've spent nearly 3 years (I think it is roughly that long anyway) being whisked to and from work on them and they are generally on the amazing side. Less amazing on the morning you are on a busy platform and a single Pacer comes in to view because one of them has gone wrong.

Sounds like the drivers need overtime payments just to cover the extra work of getting them through the day at times.

 

[driver9000]

As a passenger I've spent nearly 3 years (I think it is roughly that long anyway) being whisked to and from work on them and they are generally on the amazing side. Less amazing on the morning you are on a busy platform and a single Pacer comes in to view because one of them has gone wrong.

Sounds like the drivers need overtime payments just to cover the extra work of getting them through the day at times.

October 2008 was when the first one appeared for crew training. December 2008 was when they entered service.

From my own experience, while they could go wrong I didn't have too many serious issues with them and as far as I'm aware none of them sat down in the middle of nowhere needing assistance. I have taken poorly 180s up to Newton Heath a few times though coming back with something less powerful.

 

[Geeves]

On another note, the information I gave yesterday in good faith needs to be changed

I knew I wasn't seeing things!!

 

[ChrisCooper]

Having not read the information about the Victoria-Blackpool diagram going over to 150s I got on the pair on Thursday. Don't know what the state the 180s are in, but I can't see the passengers will be pleased with that. The internal state was awful, and it was clear to see where all the LM things had been ripped out other than the emergency notices. The car I was in sounded awful and they seemed sluggish even by 150 standards, infact I'm not convinced all 4 engines were running. Then again the 185 I got back wasn't much better, centre car engine was sounding awful and hunting both on idle and under power. Didn't seem up to usual 185 standards either when it came to performance.

 

[driver9000]

I knew I wasn't seeing things!!

It confused me, because there was still only one in traffic and it was 180103 I had been seeing until Thursday! It all fitted with being told that 180106 had been stopped and it disappearing only for it to reappear the next day!

 

[Nym]

Was on 150116 the other night and there are pannels not screwed down properly, photos available if wanted..

 

[BOSCH]

To be honest, when they work they are amazing. When they go wrong they can be horrible.

I couldnt agree more with that statement !!!

 

[Woody]

Whats going to happen to the 180s when they go back.I thought FGW were interested in taking five of them but that idea seems to have gone quite.Rail eye-the railway blog http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2011/11/tories-destined-to-repeat-mistakes-of.html says it will be 1,000 days on the 28th December since the placing of the last new train order.Adding "but East Coast and Great Western are already devoting time and effort to looking at 'credible' alternatives."Thoughts.