Todmorden Curve

[WatcherZero]

Should be self financing, they just extend an existing service which terminates in Rochdale rather than an additional service.

 

[Lampshade]

Should be self financing, they just extend an existing service which terminates in Rochdale rather than an additional service.

The turnaround time on the ex-Wigan terminator is too tight to run it up to Burnley.

Ideally the Rochdale stop needs to be cut from the Selby service, run that fast to Todmorden and run the new service immediately behind it, calling at Rochdale, Todmorden, Burnley Manchester Road (for Accrington and Blackburn) and terminate at Rose Grove to connect with East Lancashire services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Could add a couple more to the diagram to balance out, they should be able to scrounge up a couple of diesels, especielly once electric stock comes in to free them up. Its cheaper than adding a whole new service. The earliest the route will possibly be available will be December 2013 timetable anyway.

 

[Nym]

From where exactly?


Centro's masses of stock?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Could add a couple more to the diagram to balance out, they should be able to scrounge up a couple of diesels, especielly once electric stock comes in to free them up. Its cheaper than adding a whole new service.

Are we talking 2015 as a projected start date for services using the Todmorden Chord ?

 

[WatcherZero]

As I see it, fastest turn around possible is 3-6 months for government to give final funding approval, 6 month consultation and development, 12 month slow and cheap construction and finally 4-6 months commisioning and training then waiting for next timetable change.

December 2013 is the fastest they could possibly open it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

From where exactly?


Centro's masses of stock?

I imagine when lancashire triangle and GW main line electrification are done they may be able to snap up a few pacers or 150s as a stop gap measure. It cant need more than 1 or 2 extra DMUs.

 

[ukrob]

I agree with WatcherZero - it is far to early to even consider services. There will be many timetable recasts before the first works are even started.

 

[PhilipW]

Obviously good news but I still remain mystified as to why restoring 500 metres of track can cost £8.8 million.

 

[cle]

Is it double tracked? I guess it's signalling, rather than actual trackwork and labour costs.

And of course, consultancy, legal fees, contingency and contractor margins if applicable, I guess. Stupid country.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree with WatcherZero - it is far to early to even consider services. There will be many timetable recasts before the first works are even started.

Now that the project has received its approval, the matter of service provision should be looked at with a view to the whole area provision that is in the Northern Hub proposals, as this new service should really form part of any new regional co-ordinated rail service provision.

 

[The Planner]

The Northern Hub timetable has been worked on for some time now and the Todmorden works are part of it. As for the starting timetable, it is rare that these sort of projects take account of the timetable !! If it is ready we would just get a raft of spot bids for new services.

 

[bluenoxid]

Is it double tracked? I guess it's signalling, rather than actual trackwork and labour costs.

And of course, consultancy, legal fees, contingency and contractor margins if applicable, I guess. Stupid country.

Signalling is the main one. I believe some stuff has to be shifted.

I believe it will be single track.

 

[The Planner]

It is single track.

 

[PhilipW]

Signalling is the main one.

Even so £8.8 million does seem to be like talking telephone numbers. As a lay member of the public, I cannot grasp why signalling 500m of track has to be so expensive.

At prices like this one understands why so little improvement seems to be perceived by the public for all the money that is invested in the railways.

McNulty is demanding that Network Rail acts more efficiently. Attempting to bring this project in way under budget would be a good start. It is really only a minor project and one that NR should be able to get a good grip on.

 

[Whistler40145]

Was the previous align single or double track?

 

[150222]

Just a single track. The junction with the copy pit line can still be seen from a nearby footbridge. There was also a large railway yard there. There still is but is heavily overgrown.

 

[Lampshade]

I've heard the current alignment is too tight, the existing formation will probably be ripped up and started from scratch.

 

[bluenoxid]

Even so £8.8 million does seem to be like talking telephone numbers. As a lay member of the public, I cannot grasp why signalling 500m of track has to be so expensive.

At prices like this one understands why so little improvement seems to be perceived by the public for all the money that is invested in the railways.

McNulty is demanding that Network Rail acts more efficiently. Attempting to bring this project in way under budget would be a good start. It is really only a minor project and one that NR should be able to get a good grip on.

A lot of money is spent and some of it is wasted. I would need the breakdown but certainly £1 million goes on consultancy fees from birth to completion. Signalling changes are very expensive. This is a very remote part of Preston PSB IIRC so a lot needs to be put in to ensure that the junction will cooperate with existing systems. New signals are needed and they must be placed and wired in. Points themselves and the track are also significant costs for this project.

There are also issues with the formation (earth shifting is not a cheap mans game) and payments for closure of the lines to operators for replacement services.

It is very difficult to envisage £8 million on 500 metres of track but once you start looking at the changes that have to occur to get that track in, you start to understand why £8 million can become a very reasonable figure.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, the management overheads on a 500m stretch are the same as on a 2km or more stretch. The short length makes its comparative cost higher due to fixed costs.

 

[Whistler40145]

Will any freight trains use the curve?

 

[phil8715]

It's great news for the people of Accrington and Burnley, journey times will be slashed and will provide an attractive alternative to buses.

I also hope the Colne to Skipton route will be built as there is an organisation called Selrap, has support from leading figures in politics and other East Lancashire companies and bodies.

 

[Nym]

I'd rather see regular extentions of the Victoria - Clitheroe service to Lancaster or Carlisle before SELRAP.

Especially if the Todmorden curve results in circular routes

Vic - Rochdale - Toddy - Burnley - Blackburn - Bolton - Vic for example.

Would be a nice service increase for the S&C Line if it was hourly over the S&C, hourly to Lancaster, alternating between services from Manchester and Leeds, would need another platform at Hellfeild though if it was to provide cross platform changes.

Or just extend a few up to Carlisle and see what happens, I'd proberbly use it to get to the likes of Ribblehead. Heh, even better, re-open the route to Northallerton and have a combination of Leeds - Carlisle and Manchester - Bolton - Clitheroe - Hellfeild - Hawes - Northallerton.

I'll close the wish list for hourlys on the S&C now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd rather see regular extensions of the Victoria - Clitheroe service to Lancaster or Carlisle before SELRAP.

It was my understanding that the SELRAP scheme was in the same tranche of bid proposals as that of the Todmorden Chord/Weavers Triangle. Has anyone any news with regard to the SELRAP scheme?

 

[PhilipW]

A lot of money is spent and some of it is wasted. I would need the breakdown but certainly £1 million goes on consultancy fees from birth to completion. /QUOTE]

I'm not surprised to read that £1 million will go on consultancy fees, but then I also have the reaction "What consultancy fees ?"

Why does Network Rail employ consultants at all ? Why can't they design all this with their own staff ? Surely they are up to doing that or was all that expertise sold off years ago. Very very sad if it was. We are paying a high price for that decision now.

 

[WatcherZero]

Lyrics of an old song spring to mind...

"not tonight you're not on the list,
Your name's not down you're not coming in"

 

[Bevan Price]

Does the overall cost include track improvements on the Copy Pit line ?. It was mostly restricted to a 45 mph "trundle" last time I used the route.

 

[furryfeet]

Was the previous align single or double track?

double track until it was ripped up in the early 1970's prior to resignalling under the Preston scheme.

There was a single track stub, left after the resignalling, so presumably the interlocking for this is still in situ.

What was this stub for ? Banking engines ? or just to catch any runaways before they got to Hall Royd Junction ?

 

[phil8715]

Unlike many "armchair" theoretical forum users, I am quite prepared to go and see some of the possible alternatives available between Preston and Burnley, for those who do not use the train.

With this in mind, I have travelled BOTH ways during the Monday to Friday period on service 152 from Preston Bus Station which passes through Blackburn, Rishton, Padiham , arriving at Burnley Bus Station.

Many users were short-route users, e.g. Blackburn to Rishton, Rishton to Padiham, etc. Unlike the existing Preston to Colne rail service, this bus runs every 30 minutes. Together, in conjunction with the train, this service provides a good transport link on the section from Preston to Burnley, with the added incentive of numerous bus stops that make bus travel for workpeople, shoppers and schoolchildren so attractive.

Finally, there are many connectional buses to outlying areas at both Blackburn and Burnley bus stations.

I use the 152 regularly, from Rishton where I live to Burnley or Blackburn and Preston. I also use the 152 to connect with the X43 to Manchester rather than go either Blackburn or Accrington to pick up the X41. I have noticed Transdev have axed the X44 routed via Edenfield instead a new service called the X8 that runs from Burnley-Edenfield into Manchester Shudehill Interchange.

The service only runs 4 times a day 2 each way.

I think if I had a choice between going on the train to Manchester using the link or going on the X41 Blackburn-Accrington to Manchester I would choose the train as the buses on the X41 route are old crates and should have been replaced years ago.

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Tapatalk

 

[tbtc]

I think if I had a choice between going on the train to Manchester using the link or going on the X41 Blackburn-Accrington to Manchester I would choose the train as the buses on the X41 route are old crates and should have been replaced years ago

You do realise that there's a good chance that any service from Manchester to Burnley via this new chord would be run by Pacers?