Oyster card empire could include Hertfordshire

[island]

I'd like SET to extend Oyster to Dartford. But I rather suspect it won't.

 

[MikeWh]

I'd like SET to extend Oyster to Dartford. But I rather suspect it won't.

This. I'd even be happy if they'd allow you to interchange there, which is surely a decision for SET alone. You currently have the ridiculous situation where a paper ticket from say Abbey Wood to Crayford is valid via Dartford, but using Oyster PAYG is not.

 

[jon0844]

This extension has been talked about for some time - right down to frontline staff having been told this (it was some months ago that I, unexpectedly, broke the story) so I really hope the logistics have been worked out already.

I concede that if they've merely talked about it and talks are now starting to make it happen, then the Olympics may have an impact. An awful lot of work is being suspended before the Olympics to make sure nothing goes wrong, which makes sense but is still frustrating!

 

[jon0844]

I asked on the FCC forum today and they've said it won't be end of 2011 - but that was already said on here.

However, I've now spoken to someone in revenue that said the target implementation date is for the May 2012 timetable change - in other words, ahead of the Olympics.

I certainly hope so!

 

[nantoniou]

I saw another thread elsewhere and wondered if it was true, if it was would stations such as Hatfield, St. ALbans and Wewlyn Garden City be able to use them as of next year?

 

[Daniel]

There are no confirmed dates as far as I am aware, but I do know there are intentions of extending them - the plan on my local NR line to for them to work as far as Chesunt, for example.

 

[jon0844]

I have been told by FCC that the target is for May, and clearly on the East Anglia line that would be vital given the fact Cheshunt is the station chosen for people to then walk to the white water rafting centre in Waltham Abbey (as against Waltham Cross). By contrast, there aren't any Olympic events happening anywhere near the GN stations are there?

I have also been told they want it done BEFORE the Olympics and TfL wants this too, but there are still issues to be addressed. I don't know about the other line, but the gates from Potters Bar to Welwyn Garden City are already set up for Oyster (they don't need any hardware upgrade - the readers are in) and it's just a software update.

I hope this is going to happen and won't miss the 'slot' as otherwise it will be AFTER the Olympics, and the sense of urgency will be so reduced that it could be ages - or not happen at all.

 

[Aictos]

Well if the target is May 2012 then that's great news for all - although if FCC is more then willing to allow Oyster to be extended to Hertford North then I can't see why NXEA couldn't do the same to allow Oyster to be extended to Hertford East.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have been told by FCC that the target is for May, and clearly on the East Anglia line that would be vital given the fact Cheshunt is the station chosen for people to then walk to the white water rafting centre in Waltham Abbey (as against Waltham Cross).

It isn't actually vital at all, because it is considered a 'London Venue':

Travel to Cheshunt station from central London is included with the Games Travelcard, which you will get with your event ticket

http://www.london2012.com/visiting/...s/travel-to-lee-valley-white-water-centre.php

Places like Weymouth don't include travel from London, but Eton Dorney, for the rowing, does.

 

[jon0844]

Well if the target is May 2012 then that's great news for all - although if FCC is more then willing to allow Oyster to be extended to Hertford North then I can't see why NXEA couldn't do the same to allow Oyster to be extended to Hertford East.

Perhaps that will happen? I presume TfL is going to extend the zones, so presumably Hertford East (and other stations south on that line) will become part of the zones too?

It's quite a big shake up of the zonal system if this is what happens. What about the buses for example? Will they become part of the system too?

Now, as Causton mentioned on here, some bus operators are having their ticket machines upgraded before Christmas and they'll be geared up for taking smartcards - but I'm told by Uno that this won't begin straight away.

The trains are one thing, but if people in Hertfordshire (south) can begin using Oyster on buses then this will be huge.

 

[Smethwickian]

Ish... here's up to Z2/3...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/London_Underground_Zone_2.png

Here's one of the Underground only, but for all zones.

Originally posted by jonmorris0844
The trains are one thing, but if people in Hertfordshire (south) can begin using Oyster on buses then this will be huge.

Forgive my ignorance, but is Oyster compatible with smartcards recognised by other ITSO-compliant bus ticket machines outside London?

 

[LexyBoy]

The trains are one thing, but if people in Hertfordshire (south) can begin using Oyster on buses then this will be huge.

Surely this would only happen if the buses were either operated under TfL contract, or had some special arrangement for using Oyster? And without a flat fare, which most bus operators seem unwilling to use, it's not going to work.

 

[jon0844]

This is what confuses me. Uno recently had to stop taking Oyster on the section of the route where it operated, presumably on contract to TfL (which ended perhaps?).

Yet, if they extend the zones then most people would expect to be able to use Oyster on buses too. Wouldn't it be odd otherwise?

Mind you, that said, Potters Bar doesn't take Oyster on the rail but you can use them on buses (which are TfL). Perhaps confusing the public at the edges of the zones is already normal!

How does it work in the current zone 8 and 9 for buses?

 

[Smethwickian]

How does it work in the current zone 8 and 9 for buses?

Travelcard zones are irrelevant as far as buses are concerned, aren't they? I thought what matters is whether the bus is on a TfL service. All Travelcards and pay-as-you-go Oysters are accepted throughout TfL services, even if they head a long way from zonal territory, such as Slough, Dorking etc. I've certainly been to those two by red bus with PAYG in the not too distant past.

 

[swt_passenger]

Forgive my ignorance, but is Oyster compatible with smartcards recognised by other ITSO-compliant bus ticket machines outside London?

No. That's the major issue which delayed SWT joining in fully with Oyster retailing, because their franchise spec required them to install an ITSO smartcard system at their TVMs in the London area.

(Oyster full functionality is now provided on SWT in the zones - apparently with little public reaction from all those organisations ranting anbout it when it wasn't ready...)

 

[jon0844]

Travelcard zones are irrelevant as far as buses are concerned, aren't they?

This shows my ignorance on how it works. I hope not everyone else assumes that if/when part of Hertfordshire enters the zones, they can step on a bus and use their Oyster.

Certainly some bus operators are getting smartcards, but I guess they'll be ITSO compliant and not compatible with Oyster.

 

[LexyBoy]

Oyster would also require bus operators to have a flat fare, which I doubt they would like. Also £1.30 is much less than most non-London bus fares.

 

[mattdickinson]

Oyster would also require bus operators to have a flat fare, which I doubt they would like. Also £1.30 is much less than most non-London bus fares.

Not necessarily. As I understand it, the proposal is to use the Oyster PAYG balance as an e-purse for buses outside of London, so the fares could be any amount stated to the driver.

 

[jon0844]

Is it end of 2011 or early 2012 that you'll also be able to pay with your contactless credit/debit card on TfL buses? I hope that Uno (and other buses in Herts) will be able to take these as well as whatever smartcard system they plan to introduce.

That's going to be really good for tourists who haven't bought an Oyster, although I presume it will mean paying full fare with no capping.

 

[button_boxer]

Flat fares aren't necessarily a given on bus smartcard schemes. A good example is Trent Barton's Mango, where you touch both in and out and it uses GPS to work out the fare. Though that clearly wouldn't be workable with Oyster - it would be too confusing to have different rules for different buses on the same scheme, some where you just touch in and some where you have to also touch out.

 

[LexyBoy]

Not necessarily. As I understand it, the proposal is to use the Oyster PAYG balance as an e-purse for buses outside of London, so the fares could be any amount stated to the driver.

Urgh. I hope not. If operators want in on Oyster, they should abide by its principles - which includes simple, non-zone based bus fares.

I'm guessing that the 'e-purse' idea wouldn't automatically cap for any sort of bus passes as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Flat fares aren't necessarily a given on bus smartcard schemes. A good example is Trent Barton's Mango, where you touch both in and out and it uses GPS to work out the fare. Though that clearly wouldn't be workable with Oyster - it would be too confusing to have different rules for different buses on the same scheme, some where you just touch in and some where you have to also touch out.

GPS is a good idea! I'm aware that not all smartcards have flat fares - it's a matter of pricing rather than the medium the ticket is on after all. Oxford and Reading buses both have routes with fare stages; on these you state your destination in the old fashioned way. In fact there is no advantage at all, other than the convenience of not having to carry change, to these so-called smartcard schemes.

 

[Smethwickian]

I'm guessing that the 'e-purse' idea wouldn't automatically cap for any sort of bus passes as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oxford and Reading buses both have routes with fare stages; on these you state your destination in the old fashioned way. In fact there is no advantage at all, other than the convenience of not having to carry change, to these so-called smartcard schemes.

Mention of Go Ahead-owned Oxford buses reminds me that London Midland are stepping up publicity at the moment for the first phase of their The Key smartcard (The Key being the group's trademark brand by the looks of its use in Oxford, Newcastle, Brighton etc.) starting on the Snow Hill lines between Birmingham Snow Hill, Kidderminster and Worcester. Initially for season tickets, the leaflet I noticed at the weekend referred to it eventually covering the "whole LM network" and being able to "load singles and returns on it" at some later date. Not sure whether that means using it as an e-purse as well or just paying for tickets and not getting them printed on bits of paper. I'm sure more will become clear in the next couple of years.

Back to PAYG and flat fares, though, it should eventually happen in the Centro/Network West Midlands area quite easily, as there's already virtually a flat fare on the dominant operator (NXWM's £1.80 maximum and rarely-asked-for-as-far-as-I-can-see £1.60 for up to two stages). Expect that to be a flat £2 before too long, perhaps, with a daily bus cap equal to the appropriate day ticket (currently £3.60 for NXWM only or £3.80 for all participating Network West Midlands operators - say £4 under a PAYG smartcard)

 

[Daniel]

Initially with the contactless trial on buses there will be no day cap. It will however be introduced if the scheme continues. The final plans IIRC are to have contactless working on all modes, and capping working on day/week/month/year.

 

[island]

Urgh. I hope not. If operators want in on Oyster, they should abide by its principles - which includes simple, non-zone based bus fares.

I'm guessing that the 'e-purse' idea wouldn't automatically cap for any sort of bus passes as well.

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Dublin is implementing a multi-mode smartcard at the moment, and passengers can present their card at the driver's machine (on a flat reader) and tell him their destination, and the card is charged the appropriate amount. They can also purchase tickets for accompanying passengers and have it deducted from the card.

 

[Eagle]

Back to PAYG and flat fares, though, it should eventually happen in the Centro/Network West Midlands area quite easily, as there's already virtually a flat fare on the dominant operator (NXWM's £1.80 maximum and rarely-asked-for-as-far-as-I-can-see £1.60 for up to two stages).

NXWM Coventry is a flat rate with no fare stages. Single £1.60, day pass £3.40 (until recently a day pass was less than two singles). But it seems silly that if I wanted to go the entire breadth of the city on the 32, a route that's nine miles long, I pay £1.60; whereas when I wanted to go from my old house to the university, a distance of one mile, I'd have to pay £3.20 because it needed two buses, the 19 and the 12.

 

[jon0844]

I presume the smartcard system for Uno buses will be just another way to pay, and they'll continue to have singles, returns, discounted fares, day passes and weekly passes etc.

The only difference will be that you no longer need the right change (after all, it's the one form of travel where you really can't turn up with notes, or ask to pay on a credit card) and that's pretty much good enough for me.

If the card can keep track of journeys to the point where the bus operator will give me free trips after a certain number of full price tickets, or intelligently work out capping/discounts over a month or year - that's great too and easy to do.

 

[Deerfold]

Urgh. I hope not. If operators want in on Oyster, they should abide by its principles - which includes simple, non-zone based bus fares.

I don't think many operators will "want in" on Oyster unless they can get TfL to provide a subsidy too - buses in London do not meet their costs from fares. There's a very small number of non-TfL routes where operators take Oyster or Travelcards within London - and I suspect most of those are subsidised by one council or another.

 

[jon0844]

Uno was one that took them until earlier this year, and even then only on the bits within the zones. I presume the dropping of Oyster/Travelcard acceptance was down to the ending of funding from TfL.

I wish the TfL model was extended to the whole country, and I'm sure it would work out cheaper in the long run.

I honestly think that if you ran a good, reliable, bus service and made it incredibly easy to pay, like in London, you'd see more people using buses just as people have taken to using trains.

Buses still have that dirty/smelly reputation (like trains did) and the belief that you're poor or special needs if you use one - but that's an outdated opinion, proven to be false in London (more or less, anyway!).

At one time, the car became affordable and that's what hit public transport. However, in the future, using a car will only get more and more costly. But, I'm quite lucky to have a decent bus service for the most part. Many do not, so they'd never consider it.

Herts County Council should be seeing the extension of the zones as an opportunity to totally transform travel (sorry First!). I know they're planning things like smartcards, live tracking of buses (which in turn gives real-time info at bus stops, apps etc) but I can't help but feel it's silly for each council to do its own thing with no joined up thinking.

 

[Deerfold]

Uno was one that took them until earlier this year, and even then only on the bits within the zones. I presume the dropping of Oyster/Travelcard acceptance was down to the ending of funding from TfL.

I don't think they got any funding (though they will have got a certain amount per oyster/travelcard). I suspect they decided it wasn't worth it for the amount they got.

I wish the TfL model was extended to the whole country, and I'm sure it would work out cheaper in the long run.

Me too, but you'd need someone in power to really want to persuade people onto buses. The car lobbies are strong in this country.

I honestly think that if you ran a good, reliable, bus service and made it incredibly easy to pay, like in London, you'd see more people using buses just as people have taken to using trains.

After a while, probably. The village I grew up in seemed to have increasing numbers of people catching the buses in the early nineties (and increased frequencies) despite national trends. Then First started whacking the fares up, usage declined, they've reduced the frequencies and now when I go home the buses are half empty (actually it's interesting to see Centrebus registered to go against them on one hourly route and First simply deregistered it so each runs 1 bph on common sections of route, Centrebus run it with clean 10 or 11-reg vehicles, First with whatever they've dug up that morning. Centrebus loadings seem to be about twice as high as First's).

Buses still have that dirty/smelly reputation (like trains did) and the belief that you're poor or special needs if you use one - but that's an outdated opinion, proven to be false in London (more or less, anyway!).

At one time, the car became affordable and that's what hit public transport. However, in the future, using a car will only get more and more costly. But, I'm quite lucky to have a decent bus service for the most part. Many do not, so they'd never consider it.

I think the hardest thing is geting people *back* to the bus and such a shame that so many times services are temporarily poor as they really have to fight to get passengers back.

Herts County Council should be seeing the extension of the zones as an opportunity to totally transform travel (sorry First!). I know they're planning things like smartcards, live tracking of buses (which in turn gives real-time info at bus stops, apps etc) but I can't help but feel it's silly for each council to do its own thing with no joined up thinking.

Herts council unfortunately seems to have seen their Public Transport unit as first in line for cuts. Although they do seem to have had a few enthusiastic people in the department their budget's been slashed, bus routes have disappeard or are now a shadow of their former selves and their non-web based info about service changes is now dire instead of rather good.

And yes, the planning would be better at a higher level (or with an association of authorities to help with standards).

 

[jon0844]

The fact that people only stopped using the buses when there were cuts in service frequency and higher fares proves the point.

You actually need to maintain a good service to avoid it dying completely. Something that, to its credit, HCC did with my bus service (607) and after cuts at the start of the year, it has now returned to the same frequency as before - and in the peaks has actually increased to every 20 minutes from every 30. By modifying the route slightly, it's now incredibly busy in the morning and evening peak, at school closing, and on the last services from 2200-2305.

Yes, some services run near empty at times, but once you know there's a bus you can take every 20-30 minutes from 7am to 11pm, you can actually rely on it and plan around it.

It's not rocket science, but despite that there are many areas that get a few buses per day and that's completely pointless. The poor people who have to already suffer run the risk of losing the service completely.