i think virgin should get the new west coast franchise

[Gareth]

If it's needed, it's needed. That's the thing with public transport; the vast majority of it isn't profitable and it's an almost uniquely British hang-up that it could and should be. If we're going to use these excuses, let's at least be consistent and go down the Dr Beeching ideal of a profitable-only skelital network, where we all lose services, some of the country, entirely. Even then, I doubt demand would suggest three times more trains to London from Manchester than Liverpool.

 

[ivanhoe]

So in your view the demand from Liverpool is sufficient to warrant two trains an hour?

What would this be at the expense of?

There is not sufficient demand for two trains an hour during the day for Liverpool, london. I say that with heavy heart, being an exiled scouser.Id be happy to be proved wrong

The lengthening of the Pendo's will help boost capacity.

 

[Gareth]

Why do you say there isn't?

 

[ivanhoe]

Why do you say there isn't?

I think you are playing the envy card in respect of Manchester. The Manchester market is different to the Liverpool market. It opens up to a greater number of towns and cities. Whether it needs 3 is another question. I'm sure it could easily get by on two with perhaps more trains at peak times. There are other towns along the West Coast line that are missing out. If Liverpool was to get a second now then it would be a slower one with more stops along the Trent Valley . Whether there is room for that , without a total recast of the timetable, I'm unsure.

If you are telling me that every pendo arriving and departing from Lime Street is jam packed, then I'll agree with you. However, you know that is not the case. They have good loadings and as I have said, the extra carriages will make a difference. By the way, I would like some services to stop at [stn]LPY[/stn] . This could open up John Lennon to a wider market . That may then increase the case for an extra service

 

[hilbert]

What ever happened to the rail privatisation ideal of 'open access' and competition? If you live north of Crewe of the WCML there is only one operator who has got the London - Glasgow market stitched up. Every time a competitor tries to bring some competition to the market, Virgin spits out its dummy, goes crying to the rail regulator, Dft or whoever, and the competition is smothered with all sorts of excuses.
The last effort was Grand Central with a Blackpool-London Service, killed off before it was even trialled. Virgin were the culprits who wiped Blackpool off their route map.
They are only interested in the expense account sector who will quite happily pay £300+ for their first class return from Lancashire to London.
One has to say, that 390054 has been delivered in Virgin livery in all but logo, maybe the new WCML franchise has already been decided behind closed doors, or that new pendo would be carrying just a base colour of white or grey, waiting to see who the next operator would be.
We will see!

 

[jaigee]

.... By the way, I would like some services to stop at [stn]LPY[/stn] . This could open up John Lennon to a wider market . That may then increase the case for an extra service

Unfortunately the platforms are all far too short, even for a 9 coach Pendolino.

 

[AlterEgo]

Every time a competitor tries to bring some competition to the market, Virgin spits out its dummy, goes crying to the rail regulator, Dft or whoever, and the competition is smothered with all sorts of excuses.

Any TOC operating to a franchise agreement, must, in accordance with that franchise agreement, protect the interests of their franchise. They must ensure their own franchise is competitive. So - the TOCs, even if they were quite happy to allow a competitor (and why would they??), have to ensure the franchise, which is a government asset, retains as much value as possible. Witness East Coast objections to Grand Central - they had to object.

They are only interested in the expense account sector who will quite happily pay £300+ for their first class return from Lancashire to London.

Really? It may be a fair criticism that Virgin do concentrate on the business traveller, but that's where the money is, as you've intimated. There aren't any Advance tickets on sale I suppose for the leisure traveller....are there?

One has to say, that 390054 has been delivered in Virgin livery in all but logo, maybe the new WCML franchise has already been decided behind closed doors

Nonsense. Read the earlier posts (I suspect you haven't bothered). The ICWC bid is sealed. This means that each bid is anonymous. It is not possible for anyone in the DfT to simply decide who is running the franchise on anything other than the specifications laid out in the tender document.

About 90% of what has been written here is astonishingly ill-informed.

Perhaps the thread should be renamed "Do Virgin, on the basis of past performance, deserve to run ICWC for the next x years?"

Sadly, very few of the posters on here seem to have any idea how franchising is decided. Good for you I say - it's incredibly boring.

 

[Gareth]

I think you are playing the envy card in respect of Manchester. The Manchester market is different to the Liverpool market. It opens up to a greater number of towns and cities. Whether it needs 3 is another question. I'm sure it could easily get by on two with perhaps more trains at peak times.

Whilst I can't vouch that every train into Lime Street is packed, seen as I can't possibly be on every train, I can vouch that it's very well often the case, as will a lot of other people who use this service. Whether Manchester needs 3 is a very relevant question to to this one, as I honestly do not believe it needs 3 times the provision of Liverpool. Either Liverpool is underserved, or Manchester is somewhat overserved. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit of both.

 

[tbtc]

Whilst I can't vouch that every train into Lime Street is packed, seen as I can't possibly be on every train, I can vouch that it's very well often the case, as will a lot of other people who use this service. Whether Manchester needs 3 is a very relevant question to to this one, as I honestly do not believe it needs 3 times the provision of Liverpool. Either Liverpool is underserved, or Manchester is somewhat overserved. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit of both.

Or maybe the Manchester service caters for in-between places too (Milton Keynes, Stoke, Crewe, Stockport) whilst Liverpool services have been speeded up so that they only stop at Runcorn and Stafford.

The former stop at Crewe (on the Liverpool service) has been passed to the "Wilmslow" Manchester service and also the hourly Chester service.

As the Voyagers "saved" from the Manchester - Edinburgh/Glasgow service now provide an improved London - Chester service, that has taken some of the demand from parts of Merseyside (that would otherwise have used the London - Liverpool service).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Or maybe the Manchester service caters for in-between places too (Milton Keynes, Stoke, Crewe, Stockport) whilst Liverpool services have been speeded up so that they only stop at Runcorn and Stafford.

They currently serve Runcorn and Stafford only

 

[PHRP]

Any TOC operating to a franchise agreement, must, in accordance with that franchise agreement, protect the interests of their franchise. They must ensure their own franchise is competitive. So - the TOCs, even if they were quite happy to allow a competitor (and why would they??), have to ensure the franchise, which is a government asset, retains as much value as possible. Witness East Coast objections to Grand Central - they had to object.

Really? It may be a fair criticism that Virgin do concentrate on the business traveller, but that's where the money is, as you've intimated. There aren't any Advance tickets on sale I suppose for the leisure traveller....are there?

Nonsense. Read the earlier posts (I suspect you haven't bothered). The ICWC bid is sealed. This means that each bid is anonymous. It is not possible for anyone in the DfT to simply decide who is running the franchise on anything other than the specifications laid out in the tender document.

About 90% of what has been written here is astonishingly ill-informed.

Sadly, very few of the posters on here seem to have any idea how franchising is decided. Good for you I say - it's incredibly boring.

Thank You for the insite into your work at Virgin or DfT .. We now have a better understanding about how it all works.. However, it still is a bit stange, don't you think, that the Alstom Pendolino, that has been recently delivered, is in the Virgin Red/Silver scheme.. Surely it would have been delivered in a base colour? If you could answer this question, it would be much appreciated

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thank You for the insite into your work at Virgin or DfT .. We now have a better understanding about how it all works.. However, it still is a bit stange, don't you think, that the Alstom Pendolino, that has been recently delivered, is in the Virgin Red/Silver scheme.. Surely it would have been delivered in a base colour?

It was, silver and red is the base colour...

 

[PHRP]

It was, silver and red is the base colour...

Yes, for Virgin..

 

[AlterEgo]

Why would it be delivered in a base colour? It's being operated by Virgin. Therefore it has Virgin colours.

AFAIK, and I stand, as always, willing to be corrected, most of the colour scheme (door stripes, red bits, black around windows etc) is actually vinyls that can be easily maintained, and removed.

 

[PHRP]

Why would it be delivered in a base colour? It's being operated by Virgin. Therefore it has Virgin colours.

AFAIK, and I stand, as always, willing to be corrected, most of the colour scheme (door stripes, red bits, black around windows etc) is actually vinyls that can be easily maintained, and removed.

Fair Point that! I can understand why Virgin would want all of their fleet to be standard. Thanks

 

[tbtc]

They currently serve Runcorn and Stafford only

Aye, maybe I didn't explain myself well, what I was meaning to say is that Liverpool has had a faster service (with the Crewe stops given to other services, no stop at Nuneaton etc any more)... Stafford isn't a big place either, so a nine coach 390 would have plenty of seats for London - Liverpool passengers (whilst London - Manchester passengers have to compete for seats with passengers for places like Milton Keynes/ Stoke).

Obviously Manchester gets more services and more seats, but I was just trying to put things into some perspective.

 

[AlterEgo]

I do kind of accept that one train an hour to Liverpool seems weak in relation to Manchester - but I don't think a half hourly service would justify itself financially. Or would it?

However, Manchester has enough on it's plate - services are frequently and consistently oversubscribed, particularly in the peak. I don't agree that Manchester services should be canned in favour of Liverpool.

However, I do think that Liverpool services ought to see the full benefit of the extended stock when it comes into play.

I am trying to be fair - I love Liverpool (support the Reds!) and do understand the "envy" towards Manchester at getting a VHF service...

 

[Badger]

It's a shame - if DB won the franchise before WSMR went down the service may well have become profitable as they'd have been able to use Wolverhampton fully amongst other things.

Virgin have that "wow" factor that draws people into the railways. They're in many ways the Apple of trains, difference being you can't really get an equivalent alternative on railways.

Something I've been curious about is the 34 minute wait at Wolverhampton for EUS trains - is there a reason for this? I may be naive but they could continue along the Wolverhampton to Walsall line, giving Walsall (a town of 250,000) a direct link to London. The London Midland "slow" train used to make the line in 13 minutes.