Network West Midlands: when can I travel and with whom?

[Badger]

Hi there! I'm a regular traveller from Wolverhampton to Leicester via Brum. It's worked out the cheapest for me to get a "Network Off-Peak" ticket. This gives me travel on the buses, the tram, and trains (as far as Birmingham).

Off-Peak confuses me to no end. I caught a train to and from London Euston once (only time I'll do that, bloody confusing) -- it was at the time I'd selected when buying my ticket online (London Midland), but the tannoy said while leaving Euston, "passengers be aware this is NOT an off-peak train". Didn't have a clue what to do, I mean, I didn't want to end up paying a full price fare from London to Birmingham, that would be painful - so I jumped off at Leighton Buzzard and caught the next train.

Well, anyway. So I have this Network Off Peak ticket.

It's valid on off-peak train services. Is there a set time for this? Given I use it to travel from Wolverhampton to Birmingham NS, and then from NS to Wolves.

Looking around Wolverhampton I found smallprint saying:

"Certain off-peak tickets are only valid on trains leaving Birmingham NS before 4:30pm."

Certain off-peak tickets? There are different types off-peak tickets? What about mine? Does this mean all trains into Birmingham are on-peak?

Similarly I get an off-peak ticket from Birmingham to Leicester but tend to just get on any train at any time, after 9:30. Am I right to do so? I don't have a clue.

Witch? talking about how the masses don't know what tickets do what were probably right about idiots like me; I'm clueless.

I've never had any trouble with it although the ticket guy on the Brum-Liverpool service hadn't even seen my type of ticket before.

Final question and that's... what are "participating operators" with regards to "network west midlands"? Within the valid region, there are London Midland City and Express, Cross Country, ATW, Virgin and Chiltern trains running between stations I can get to with this pass. I'm never sure which I can actually catch. Only the London Midland City trains (WVH-BHM) actually have n network signs and the network map.

Sorry for the lengthy post; just wondering if somebody is in my situation who knows better than me.

 

[Mojo]

Certain off-peak tickets? There are different types off-peak tickets? What about mine?

Yes. The time restrictions for Off-peak depend on the origin and destination of the ticket, as well as the type of Off-peak ticket it is. For example a customer travelling from Birmingham to London on a Super Off-peak Return will have different restrictions to a customer travelling with a Super Off-peak Day Return from Birmingham to Solihull on the same train. Similarly a customer travelling from Wolverhampton to Birmingham on the return portion of an Off-peak Day Return will find it is not valid before 09.30 and between 16.35 and 18.00, yet a customer with an Off-peak Day Return from Wolverhampton to University may travel at any time on the return.

In order to advise the times your ticket is valid, we need to know its origin, destination, exact ticket type, route, price paid and whether you are travelling on the Out or Rtn portion.

The n-Network Daytripper is valid at any time after 09.30 Mon - Fri, and any time weekends and public/bank holidays.

 

[Badger]

Oh, I didn't realise it was that complicated. Rather than ask you specifics - is there anywhere to look this up when buying tickets or some kind of guidebook? I tend to buy my tickets by just jabbing "Birmingham, off peak" on the self service machine but for all my rummaging I haven't been able to find anything that actually mentions times.

(Incidentally, "Wolverhampton Plus Bus" appears on self service machines at Leicester but always says "no fares available".)

 

[Mojo]

Oh, I didn't realise it was that complicated. Rather than ask you specifics - is there anywhere to look this up when buying tickets or some kind of guidebook? I tend to buy my tickets by just jabbing "Birmingham, off peak" on the self service machine but for all my rummaging I haven't been able to find anything that actually mentions times.

Yes, you can buy Avantix Traveller: xhttp://www.tsoshop.co.uk/bookstore.asp?FO=1159966&DI=631639

Alternatively, this information is available for free on the journey planners (eg. National Rail Enquiries) or by telephone.

(Incidentally, "Wolverhampton Plus Bus" appears on self service machines at Leicester but always says "no fares available".)

That is because these tickets have to be sold separately. It will be issued as one from Leicester to Wolverhampton, and one as Wolverhampton Plusbus. If you buy online from a website that offers Plusbus it will be done correctly, else buy at the ticket window.

 

[Ze Random One]

If it's a n-network 2 week Zone 1 - 5 pass (£20.50) then it's valid on trains departing between 0930 and 1529 and 1800 to end of service Mo-Fr.
IIRC there are no restrictions on the train operating company you can use.
This is the page for this ticket: http://tickets.networkwestmidlands....TicketID=8&TicketOptionID=16541&resultsPage=0
If it's not that ticket, search using the ticket finder on network west midland's website
http://tickets.networkwestmidlands.co.uk/CT_TicketSearch.aspx?resultsPage=0
But as others have advised, if you're not sure, specify the exact type of ticket you have, and I'm sure someone can come to your aid.

 

[mallard]

Ah, another person confused by the railway's nebulous definition of "off-peak", where you have to look in the small-print on a website or buy an extra product to find out what it actually means for you.

It would be much easier to understand (and fairer) if we could switch to a system where TOCs define trains as "peak" or "off-peak", since they're in a position to know what the loadings are like and apply a bit of "yield management". Of course, it would have to be carefully regulated.

But, while there is money to be made from confusing passengers and exploiting their misunderstandings and mistakes, nothing will change...

 

[Greenback]

Ah, another person confused by the railway's nebulous definition of "off-peak", where you have to look in the small-print on a website or buy an extra product to find out what it actually means for you.

It would be much easier to understand (and fairer) if we could switch to a system where TOCs define trains as "peak" or "off-peak", since they're in a position to know what the loadings are like and apply a bit of "yield management". Of course, it would have to be carefully regulated.

But, while there is money to be made from confusing passengers and exploiting their misunderstandings and mistakes, nothing will change...

How would you classify the trains on the Carmarthen/Milford Haven - Manchester run? Or other similar long distance 'regional' services? Would the 0500 from Carmarthen be a peak train? What about the 1500?

 

[LexyBoy]

How would you classify the trains on the Carmarthen/Milford Haven - Manchester run? Or other similar long distance 'regional' services? Would the 0500 from Carmarthen be a peak train? What about the 1500?

This discussion would probably be best continued in another thread, but FWIW, SNCF work on a system like this. Timetables are colour coded according to peak/off peak status (some trains being peak up to a certain point). If travelling over a section classed as "peak" you only need to pay a supplement for that section IIRC, so that long-distance travellers aren't heavily penalised.

For your example, the 0500 from Carmarthen (to London I guess) might be 'off peak' to Bristol, then 'peak'; whilst the Milford Haven-Manchester might be 'peak' at the ends and 'off peak' in the middle.

Of course, there is much less difference in price between peak and Off Peak travel in France, so it's a somewhat different situation. It also relies a lot on thorough ticket checks.

My view is that it does make a lot of sense - after all, it is the trains, not the flows, which get crowded - however I can't see it being implemented (and if it were, there would be massive incidental fare increases)

 

[Greenback]

This discussion would probably be best continued in another thread, but FWIW, SNCF work on a system like this. Timetables are colour coded according to peak/off peak status (some trains being peak up to a certain point). If travelling over a section classed as "peak" you only need to pay a supplement for that section IIRC, so that long-distance travellers aren't heavily penalised.

For your example, the 0500 from Carmarthen (to London I guess) might be 'off peak' to Bristol, then 'peak'; whilst the Milford Haven-Manchester might be 'peak' at the ends and 'off peak' in the middle.

Of course, there is much less difference in price between peak and Off Peak travel in France, so it's a somewhat different situation. It also relies a lot on thorough ticket checks.

My view is that it does make a lot of sense - after all, it is the trains, not the flows, which get crowded - however I can't see it being implemented (and if it were, there would be massive incidental fare increases)

You are right. I will start another thread. It could be a detailed and interesting discussion!

 

[Badger]

If it's a n-network 2 week Zone 1 - 5 pass (£20.50) then it's valid on trains departing between 0930 and 1529 and 1800 to end of service Mo-Fr.

This is my ticket by the looks of it. Bad for me as I've been consistently catching after 15:30; but I can easily go out a bit earlier so it's not a problem. Thanks though, not sure how I missed that on their website.

On "when should off peak be" - if it's anything like the buses it's a screwed system anyway. Buses here go off-peak at 9:30. What this actually means is the 9:18 is silent and the 9:33 misses stops for being too full.

Ok, final question;

Leicester to Birmingham New Street Off-Peak Return. I believe I pay £10.70. I travel out at 1730, and return at 1049 a couple of days after, both weekdays. My ticket is checked every time so I assume it is fine, but am I right here? Also, is off peak the same for the Leicester-Birmingham portion of all trains? (There are leicester to birmingham trains starting at Leicester, Cambridge, and Stanstead Airport).

--

I personally think the idea of off-peak on-peak is a daft concept anyway. People don't generally travel because it's cheaper; they travel because they need to. You could toll the M6 at peak hours but people would still use it the same times. First Class I can understand, even if it does often take up too much space on small busy trains; it's a good way to subsidise infrequently used services. But I don't think people should be punished for travelling at certain times.

I do think train doors should have theme park style queueing, with a first-come-first-serve system, because I'm not aggressive enough and regularly miss out on a seat because it's too full even though I was there first! We queue for shops - and around here for buses - but when it comes for trains it's a freeforall.

 

[Batman]

I always thought the peak time restrictions at Birmingham stations only applied to passengers boarding trains at Birmngham stations, not passengers traviling through Birmingham or ending their journey there.

However, I was on the 17:05 train from Lichfield City to New Street a couple of weeks ago. A ticket inspector walked through the train (a novilty on the Cross City nowerdays). There was a woman sitting on the other side of the isle from me and the inspector told her that her Erdington to New Street single was not valid because she would be ariving at New Street during the peak time restrictions. She ended up getting a £20 penilty notice.

Can anyone shed anymore light on this?

 

[Mojo]

However, I was on the 17:05 train from Lichfield City to New Street a couple of weeks ago. A ticket inspector walked through the train (a novilty on the Cross City nowerdays). There was a woman sitting on the other side of the isle from me and the inspector told her that her Erdington to New Street single was not valid because she would be ariving at New Street during the peak time restrictions. She ended up getting a £20 penilty notice.

Can anyone shed anymore light on this?

Well first of all Penalty Fares are not supposed to be issued for tickets invalid due to a published time restriction.

Whether you are permitted to use an Off-peak ticket depends on the restriction attached to the ticket, so without knowing the exact details of the ticket, no-one can comment. I presume she had an Erdington to Birmingham Stations Super Off-peak Day Single, which is not valid until after 18.30, but this is the same price as an Anytime Day Single.

 

[SS4]

I always thought the peak time restrictions at Birmingham stations only applied to passengers boarding trains at Birmngham stations, not passengers traviling through Birmingham or ending their journey there.

However, I was on the 17:05 train from Lichfield City to New Street a couple of weeks ago. A ticket inspector walked through the train (a novilty on the Cross City nowerdays). There was a woman sitting on the other side of the isle from me and the inspector told her that her Erdington to New Street single was not valid because she would be ariving at New Street during the peak time restrictions. She ended up getting a £20 penilty notice.

Can anyone shed anymore light on this?

She should not have been PFed. Only an excess is payable if a ticket is not valid due to time restrictions.
It would have been interesting if she was stopped before Aston/Duddeston since she could have argued she was breaking a journey there before going on to New St.



edit: this does not apply to the Super Off Peak that Mojo mentions

 

[Batman]

Well first of all Penalty Fares are not supposed to be issued for tickets invalid due to a published time restriction.

Whether you are permitted to use an Off-peak ticket depends on the restriction attached to the ticket, so without knowing the exact details of the ticket, no-one can comment. I presume she had an Erdington to Birmingham Stations Super Off-peak Day Single, which is not valid until after 18.30.

But surly Erdington ticket office wouldn't issue that ticket till after 6.30pm.

I can only assume she'd purchased a normal off peak day single (since it was after 9.30am but before 6.30pm).

I only thought the issuing of the penilty notice was unusual because I thought the peak time restrictions at New Street only applied to passengers departing from New Street, not arriving there.

 

[Mojo]

I can only assume she'd purchased a normal off peak day single (since it was after 9.30am but before 6.30pm).

There is no such thing as an Off-peak Day Single from Erdington to Birmingham Stns.

I only thought the issuing of the penilty notice was unusual because I thought the peak time restrictions at New Street only applied to passengers departing from New Street, not arriving there.

There _may_ be ticket restrictions for some journeys into Birmingham, but there are loads of restrictions so I cannot comment without knowing the ticket held.