PM Peak TPE Leeds-Manchester Trains

[jha4ceb]

A quick question for anyone in the know:

Which evening peak TPE Leeds-Manchester services are diagrammed for 2x185 (2x170) rather than just a single unit? I've recently started commuting this route a couple of times a week and would like to avoid the crush where possible. I've only seen one so far, on the 1725 -- is this a regular occurrence or was I just lucky on that occasion?

 

[Crossover]

1725 is a regular occurence. I see it most evenings as it calls at Dewsbury at 1736 (not many doubles call at Dewsbury)

Only occasionally has it been a single set - not sure if there are days it is diagrammed as a single.

Don't know of any others I'm afraid

 

[YorkshireRider]

The 1608 Liverpool service is booked to couple up at Leeds to become six car although that might be a bit early for u to finish work

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The 1608 Liverpool service is booked to couple up at Leeds to become six car although that might be a bit early for u to finish work

As is the 1708 Liverpool service. Beware though, if they are ever short of units anywhere (which they often are) then 1 or both of the Liverpool 6 cars get reduced to 3. And then they get VERY cosy, normally with folk left behind at Leeds.

On Fridays Only the 1625 is booked a 4 car 170 instead of a 3 car 185.

I have a feeling the 1640 is booked a 4 car 170 Monday to Thursday, but not just sure.

 

[Eeveevolve]

As is the 1708 Liverpool service. Beware though, if they are ever short of units anywhere (which they often are) then 1 or both of the Liverpool 6 cars get reduced to 3. And then they get VERY cosy, normally with folk left behind at Leeds.

Thats my usual commute home. I would estimate its success rate of being 2X185 is about 40%. Very cosy just being one set.

 

[Welshman]

Incidentally, where do the units to strengthen the 1608 and 1708 services come from?

TPE have no depot in Leeds and nothing is shown as terminating at Leeds beforehand, and, of course, 185s are not used on any other service through Leeds.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Incidentally, where do the units to strengthen the 1608 and 1708 services come from?

TPE have no depot in Leeds and nothing is shown as terminating at Leeds beforehand, and, of course, 185s are not used on any other service through Leeds.

They run ECS from York. They do not attach there due to timing & platform constraints.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

The two strengthening units also run ECS via Castleford so as to maintain driver route knowledge. They cannot attach at York as it is not possible for 185s to couple in platform 4 (nor I think in platform 5) due to the curvature of these two platforms.

The 15.40 Leeds - Manchester is booked for 2 x 170, as the extra capacity is needed on the 16.42 Manchester - Hull. The 16.40 is 1 x 170 only and the 17.40 is 1 x 185 Mon-Thu and 2 x 170 on a Friday.

The 16.08 / 17.08 Leeds - Liverpool are indeed booked 2 x 185 (as highlighted in earlier posts) but the 16.08 is the first train to lose its extra unit in the event of failures, as the 2 x 185 capacity is only really needed between Manchester Oxford Road and Warrington Central.

The 17.26 is most reliably 2 x 185 and is formed so between York and Manchester Piccadilly. I am not sure if it is now only 1 x 185 on a Friday, as the extra 185 was needed for Scottish strengthening.

 

[Anvil1984]

TPE detach in platform 5 at York so presume attaching wont be a problem, the more likely reason is that they can't get directly from the depot to platform 4/5, can only get there from 8/9/10/11 without having to shunt to other end of station and back

 

[spasmj]

I'm pretty certain that TPEs can/do couple at York on platform 10. I've joined at York on one of these on a number of occasions (on I think the 16:57 or 17:57 departures to MIA). I have no idea what happens beyond Leeds though as I've always got off at Garforth.

 

[Anvil1984]

Oh they definitely can in 10 / 11 and most of the platforms in York except maybe 4

 

[142094]

TPE detach in platform 5 at York so presume attaching wont be a problem, the more likely reason is that they can't get directly from the depot to platform 4/5, can only get there from 8/9/10/11 without having to shunt to other end of station and back

Was going to say the same - there is a morning service which splits in platform 5 for Scarborough and Newcastle.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Even if you could get from the depot to 4 would it be long enough to hold a 6 car without passing the signal? Never paid much attention to just how long that platform is.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

They can couple in 4, I've been on one which coupled there before. I think it is more to with timing in and out of the station and where the units are located before they go to Leeds.

One of the evening Liverpool attachment units comes direct via Micklefield, either that or it goes through Leeds to come back again, as it normally sits in Marsh Lane cutting waiting time for a bit.

 

[Crossover]

Yeah, platform 4 is deceptively long...I should know having stood at one end of a packed platform 4 for the train to stop at the other end

Earlier in the year, I had a train from Scarborough which had no working toilets so we got set swapped at York. We pulled in to platform 4 and our replacement was waiting on platform 4 in front so there is plenty space to get a 6 car on there

 

[Welshman]

Thank you for all your interesting replies.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Whether or not a platform is long enough is not the only concern when determining if trains can couple / uncouple.
Platform 4 at York IS indeed long enough to accommodate a 6 car train, but the curvature of the platform prevents an attach move to take place (under normal "planned" circumstances anyway).
I also think there may be instances where curvature will allow a detach move but not an attach move, which AFAIK is the case with platform 5 at York. (there are certainly platforms at Hull where the class 170s must arrive in a particular order, otherwise certain coupling / uncoupling moves cannot be carried out).
Trains from Scarborough cannot get to a platform at York which is numbered higher than 5, which is why those two evening peak Liverpool trains cannot be strengthened in platforms 9, 10 or 11.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The two strengthening units also run ECS via Castleford so as to maintain driver route knowledge.

This driver route knowledge came in very useful some time ago within the last two years, when as a result of a locomotive fouling the points on the line from Neville Hill depot and stopping services in-between Leeds and York until matters were rectified, our train from Manchester Airport to Durham ran as normal to Leeds, then reversed out of Leeds and took the route through Woodlesford and Castleford to arrive at York.

 

[Philip]

North West TPE is the best place to see doubled up 185s, about 6 a day in each direction, albeit portion trains. Even before TPE started running to Glasgow/Edinburgh, this route to NW locations seemed to be the preferance for doubling up 185s (175s before that) - 4 a day each way up to 2007.

 

[IanXC]

I also think there may be instances where curvature will allow a detach move but not an attach move, which AFAIK is the case with platform 5 at York. (there are certainly platforms at Hull where the class 170s must arrive in a particular order, otherwise certain coupling / uncoupling moves cannot be carried out).

I'm pretty certain the platforms at Hull don't have any curvature at all once you're in the trainshed, and about 5 coach lengths fit under, so what means 170s have to go in in a particular order?

 

[Nym]

That their quite broken, most of the electronics is held together with tape and that half of the couplers don't work on either end.

 

[IanXC]

That their quite broken, most of the electronics is held together with tape and that half of the couplers don't work on either end.

Ah so issues with the units rather than the platforms, that makes much more sense.

 

[Crossover]

RE Pauls post, I think I have been on that diversion before...engineering I think being the reason and we had EBA somewhere Castleford due to a trespass incident.

Anyway, back on topic, I observed this afternoon and the 1625 (1636 off Dewsbury) was a 4 car 170 today and the 1725 (1736 off Dewsbury) was a 3 car 185. I bet it will be Fridays in the past where I have seen a single unit work the 1736.

 

[Eeveevolve]

Good job it was my day off today. Fridays are bad enough without it only being a 3car 185. Thats usually when people get left behind as there isn't enough space for a peanut on fridays anyway with even 6 cars.....

 

[Crossover]

Just out of interest, are there many services calling at Dewsbury in the Leeds direction that are either 170's or 6 car 185's?

Good job it was my day off today. Fridays are bad enough without it only being a 3car 185. Thats usually when people get left behind as there isn't enough space for a peanut on fridays anyway with even 6 cars.....

You'll have to face the Friday 3 car crush sooner or later :P

 

[Eeveevolve]

Just out of interest, are there many services calling at Dewsbury in the Leeds direction that are either 170's or 6 car 185's?

The 6:56 Hud to Hull is pretty much always a 2 car 170, and the 7:45 To Newcastle/Scarborough is usually a 6 car 185.

 

[jha4ceb]

Yep, the 1726 was 3-car yesterday but 6-car on Thursday. Looks like I'll be avoiding it on Fridays from now on!

Now if only Northern would double up the 1821 Manc Picc to Buxton...