12 car 350/1 to be tested at 110mph

[WatcherZero]

if Scotland to Manchester ran at 110, how much of a time saving would it be?

Well if the current TPE service is 3hr 40m, and changing to Virgin service at Preston (excluding platform time) is roughly 3hr 20m, it would be closer to the 3hr 20m mark. Somewhere in the 15m faster ballpark if running the same route via Bolton.

 

[Blindtraveler]

thanks.

 

[jopsuk]

Slight double take when i saw the Registered office address for London and Birmingham Railway Limited is in Newcastle, before I remebered that's where Go Ahead group are from.

 

[Pumbaa]

This is why it is important to read all the documents though - because the associated track access application explains that the southbound service isn't possible, and has to run via Northampton.

The document is contradictory however. It states that with the exception of the two Peak PM workings that have to cross at Ledburn that NR have said all paths are workable, then states that work is still ongoing for the Up Stafford - Hanslope path to mitigate any performance issues.

My interpretation is that NR have given the thumbs up for the Down paths as listed, and are still identifying the suitable paths going Up.
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As we can now see from the track access stuff, LM can flight two trains on the fast lines in the same slot they already have between the flights of Pendolinos. In principle this means LM could run 4 tph up the fasts rather than the 2 tph they do now. From LM's perspective, that is quite a significant improvement.

No only 3tph surely? xx13 coming over at Ledburn, xx46 going fast right through and xx49 with the xx49 going fast to MK.

xx13 - next 125EPS service 7 mins behind
xx46 - next 125EPS service 14 mins behind
xx49 - next 125EPS service 11 mins behind

 

[swt_passenger]

No only 3tph surely? xx13 coming over at Ledburn, xx46 going fast right through and xx49 with the xx49 going fast to MK.

xx13 - next 125EPS service 7 mins behind
xx46 - next 125EPS service 14 mins behind
xx49 - next 125EPS service 11 mins behind

I didn't look at it in that much detail I'm afraid - I just thought both of the current trains would have the same 'white space' behind them at the moment. If that isn't the case just ignore my comments... :cry:

 

[Pumbaa]

No problem I imagine we'll get some more news over the next few months.

 

[T163R]

Well if the current TPE service is 3hr 40m, and changing to Virgin service at Preston (excluding platform time) is roughly 3hr 20m, it would be closer to the 3hr 20m mark. Somewhere in the 15m faster ballpark if running the same route via Bolton.

15 minutes is nothing. Not that the upgrade is pointless, but...

 

[Pumbaa]

Just had it confirmed by Alex Hynes that they're continuing to apply for paths.

 

[snail]

15 minutes is nothing. Not that the upgrade is pointless, but...

...if you want to run additional trains then having fewer conflicts with 125mph services will make it possible.

 

[tbtc]

Well if the current TPE service is 3hr 40m, and changing to Virgin service at Preston (excluding platform time) is roughly 3hr 20m, it would be closer to the 3hr 20m mark. Somewhere in the 15m faster ballpark if running the same route via Bolton.

15 minutes is nothing. Not that the upgrade is pointless, but...

Bear in mind that something would still have to serve Oxenholme/ Penrith/ Lockerbie etc, so the TPE service wouldn't be *that* much faster than it currently is.

 

[Pumbaa]

Bear in mind that something would still have to serve Oxenholme/ Penrith/ Lockerbie etc, so the TPE service wouldn't be *that* much faster than it currently is.

Bear in mind due to their weight the 185s use the loco speeds, not MU speeds up the WCML, I'd expect to see a significant time saving in using 110 capable EMU Desiros.

The other thing noted with the LM application is it frees up 2 units on the Crewe service alone. Currently the incoming Crewe arrives at xx36, waits for 57 minutes until xx33. At Euston, it arrives at xx49 and goes out at xx46. 57 again. The new timetable does away with about 15 at each end thanks to the time savings en route.

 

[87015]

Bear in mind due to their weight the 185s use the loco speeds, not MU speeds up the WCML, I'd expect to see a significant time saving in using 110 capable EMU Desiros.

The other thing noted with the LM application is it frees up 2 units on the Crewe service alone. Currently the incoming Crewe arrives at xx36, waits for 57 minutes until xx33. At Euston, it arrives at xx49 and goes out at xx46. 57 again. The new timetable does away with about 15 at each end thanks to the time savings en route.

I didn't know there was much in the way of MU differentials north of Preston as opposed to just EPS ones, but its been a long while since I was up there.

The Crewe diagrams at the Euston end don't work as simply as that, they are interworked with other services, most of the time at least. Think one still works back out on a Tring stopper in the peak...

 

[tbtc]

Bear in mind due to their weight the 185s use the loco speeds, not MU speeds up the WCML, I'd expect to see a significant time saving in using 110 capable EMU Desiros

They'll be faster, I was just trying to temper things by saying that they'd still be the "all stops" service north of Preston, so could never hope to go as fast as the 390s (which often just stop at Lancaster and Carlisle)

 

[Tomonthetrain]

forgive me for being thick but what is 125EPS and how does it affect WCML speed limits?

 

[Nym]

Enhanced Permissible Speed (How fast you can go if you tilt).

Non-Tilting stock is limited to 110 on most of the WCML

 

[Lampshade]

They'll be faster, I was just trying to temper things by saying that they'd still be the "all stops" service north of Preston, so could never hope to go as fast as the 390s (which often just stop at Lancaster and Carlisle)

All Glasgow 390s stop at Oxenholme to connect with the shuttle to Windermere, the exception being the 1630 off Euston which only calls at Preston. Penrith gets fewer services as the BHM - GLC services call at Oxenholme in the hour the 390s terminate at Lancaster.

 

[ainsworth74]

forgive me for being thick but what is 125EPS and how does it affect WCML speed limits?

It means that rolling stock that is fitted with tilt can travel at 125mph rather than the non-tilt limit of 110mph. EPS I think stands for something like Enhanced Permitted Speed.

Edit: Damnit Nym!

 

[Tomonthetrain]

cheers both

 

[tbtc]

All Glasgow 390s stop at Oxenholme to connect with the shuttle to Windermere, the exception being the 1630 off Euston which only calls at Preston. Penrith gets fewer services as the BHM - GLC services call at Oxenholme in the hour the 390s terminate at Lancaster.

...plus also Lockerbie (which TPE will still have to stop at)

 

[Lampshade]

...plus also Lockerbie (which TPE will still have to stop at)

And Motherwell, I forgot that one hock:

 

[Nym]

With these extra bit of stock available, anyone else think that LM should be extending a service up to Preston again, and put some competition on the route?

Via Newton Le Willows btw.

Northern seem reasonably well placed to start up a WCML Stopper from Crewe to Preston or dare I say it, Windermere if electrified?

 

[tbtc]

Northern seem reasonably well placed to start up a WCML Stopper from Crewe to Preston or dare I say it, Windermere if electrified?

With what stock?

And, if there were spare EMUs then Northern will have plenty lines to use them on for capacity.

 

[Lampshade]

Northern seem reasonably well placed to start up a WCML Stopper from Crewe to Preston or dare I say it, Windermere if electrified?

There *needs* to be a stopper between Preston and Crewe. At the moment someone travelling to Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford from north of Warrington has a wait of between 29 minutes (for Hartford) and 58m (for Winsford) at Crewe due to the lousy timing of the Liverpool service.

 

[Nym]

With what stock?

And, if there were spare EMUs then Northern will have plenty lines to use them on for capacity.

Well, I dowbt the posh-os on the great western will want the thameslink cast offs and will moan till they get new stock, or crossrail just runs it instead, and LM will just get new units, so that leaves 86 units for Northern.

Remembering of course that EMUs should be easier to come by soon enough. And if NT can have twice as many old ones as it would new ones, I'd rather see lots more older units than a scraping of new ones.

Via Earlstown would also mean a more regular service North from there to Wigan, and a more regular service to Euxton aswell...

 

[Pumbaa]

I didn't know there was much in the way of MU differentials north of Preston as opposed to just EPS ones, but its been a long while since I was up there.

The Crewe diagrams at the Euston end don't work as simply as that, they are interworked with other services, most of the time at least. Think one still works back out on a Tring stopper in the peak...

There's enough - through the lakes it's about 10 difference all the way.

I was under the impression the Crewe diagrams off-peak stuck to the same stock to keep /1s on there.
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There *needs* to be a stopper between Preston and Crewe. At the moment someone travelling to Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford from north of Warrington has a wait of between 29 minutes (for Hartford) and 58m (for Winsford) at Crewe due to the lousy timing of the Liverpool service.

Aha! There is also some mentions in the LM document about this. It states the calling pattern for the Liv - Brum trains to be (both):

Lime St, South Parkway, Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Penkridge, Wolves, Sandwell and Dudley, New St.

No Coseley, Smethwick, Acton Bridge, Winsford or Hartford. Error or something else coming?

 

[colchesterken]

does anyone know if the tests took place and they worked at 110 mph

 

[Dreadnought]

does anyone know if the tests took place and they worked at 110 mph

It was posted on wnxx that the tests were deferred for a couple of weeks.

 

[northwichcat]

All Glasgow 390s stop at Oxenholme to connect with the shuttle to Windermere, the exception being the 1630 off Euston which only calls at Preston. Penrith gets fewer services as the BHM - GLC services call at Oxenholme in the hour the 390s terminate at Lancaster.

They don't all call at Oxenholme. Oxenholme gets on average 1 London-Glasgow every 2 hours and 1 Birmingham-Edinburgh service every 2 hours:
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/timetables/vt-timetable-e-05-2011.pdf
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Aha! There is also some mentions in the LM document about this. It states the calling pattern for the Liv - Brum trains to be (both):

Lime St, South Parkway, Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Penkridge, Wolves, Sandwell and Dudley, New St.

No Coseley, Smethwick, Acton Bridge, Winsford or Hartford. Error or something else coming?

Birmingham-Liverpool would become hourly and wouldn't make any calls between Crewe and Runcorn.

Euston-Crewe would be extended to Liverpool and would call at all stations between Crewe and Liverpool South Parkway except Acton Bridge which would get a limited calling pattern.*

The Birmingham-Preston would include calls at Coseley, Smethwick and Hartford. North of Hartford it would call at Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan and Preston. It would also call at Crewe.

* This may be in conjunction with the Manchester-Bournemouth service being diverted via Wilmslow and the Manchester-Stoke service being handed to LM and extended to Birmingham via Stone, which would mean Liverpool to Euston wouldn't go via Stone.

 

[ole man]

does anyone know if the tests took place and they worked at 110 mph

In another thread London Midland Red Faced i was told that the 350's didn't have clearance north of Preston and was cancelled

 

[northwichcat]

In another thread London Midland Red Faced i was told that the 350's didn't have clearance north of Preston and was cancelled

As 350s are cleared up to Preston (there used to be a daily Birmingham-Preston service that was 350 operated) and 185s are cleared up to Scotland there isn't any reason why 350s would fail clearance. However, if clearance hasn't been applied for then they aren't cleared.